IPT refs and what happened to me!!!!
- Thread starter Grady
- Start date
Grady,
Have you talked to Kevin Trudeau about assisting in the training of referees for the upcoming events? With your emphasis on detail and experience---you would be perfect.
Have you talked to Kevin Trudeau about assisting in the training of referees for the upcoming events? With your emphasis on detail and experience---you would be perfect.
Of course the event should have had -- in the best of all possible worlds -- a referee and a scorekeeper on each table. Since you can't expect either of those to work straight through for 12 hours, you need to double the number. Since up to 60 tables were in use, that would make 240 officials. Both the referees and scorekeepers have to be trained. So far as I know, there aren't that many trained referees available, but the scorekeepers could have been trained on the Saturday before the tournament.sniper said:I've heard from numerous sources that the refs at the Venetian were simply horrible. You would think that a two million dollar event could atleast have qualified officials
Instead of 240 officials, fewer than 20 were on the floor. Appropriate pay for trained staff is at least $20/hour plus expenses. The tournament ran for about four days if you consider that the number of tables tapered off a lot after the third day. So, per official we have:
$1000 room at the hotel (the Venetian is $200/night at reduced rate)
$ 300 air fare
$ 960 pay (four 12-hour days at $20/hour)
$ 150 food
-------
$2410 per official
$578,400 for 240 officials
Beyond that, you have the small task of organizing the 240 officials.
The alterntative to this huge effort is to find a dozen refs who are willing to work as essentially unpaid volunteers for 12 hours a day covering up to six tables each.
Blue_chalk
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Bob,Bob Jewett said:
Your post is virtually right on. Although, I'm pretty sure the IPT probably got some or all of the rooms comped...even if they didn't they probably shared rooms. There were only ten refs total. I saw the refs eating the same food as everyone else. So, your cost estimates are kind of high but your point valid.
Exceptionally qualified referees don't grow on trees. You have to get them from somewhere. If not the BCA or ACS then where else? Any player good enough to play at the pro level is working on their game...not training to be a referee. To have a referee at every table is unrealistic. If it's hard to find top refs in the first place...where are you going to get 60 from? Unlike players, there are no full time pool referees that just sit around and train day and night. Other than the BCA and ACS is there another referee sanctioning body?
There just hasn't been a pro event of this scale in recent memory. These guys are not there by accident. Someone thinks these guys are the best available. If these are the best refs available but are not meeting all of your expectations then invest time and money in training them. Find the best referee in the world and have them give a seminar. Fly in Bob Jewett to teach them pool physics. To categorically say all of the refs were bad is wrong.
Grady... FWIW, I was with ya through your story on your website until I read the following...
My confidence and self worth as a player are at an all time low. I'm beaten, violated, discouraged and honestly don't know if I'll ever get over this.
Those are some strong words/emotions... either that or you're milkin' this a bit. I can't tell.
Care to elaborate?
TIA, cd.
My confidence and self worth as a player are at an all time low. I'm beaten, violated, discouraged and honestly don't know if I'll ever get over this.
Those are some strong words/emotions... either that or you're milkin' this a bit. I can't tell.
Care to elaborate?
TIA, cd.
Blue_chalk said:
The referee staff are BCA referees. The BCA has a training program for referees that includes 12 hours of classroom and a minimum of 12 hours of practical training on the tournament floor. The ACS program is similar.
The referees at the IPT tournament have attended Bob Jewett's training session multiple times.
Mark Avlon said:
Mark - I, for one, thought that your post above was very appropriate.
Also, I believe that it is an unreasonable expectation that the referees won't make mistakes... particularly in the first huge IPT tournament. We need to cut them some slack here IMO.
Look how long the NFL has been developing their referees yet they make mistakes on a semi-regular basis.... and they get graded out after every game. In other words, the NFL has made a big investment in bettering the officiating yet occasional mistakes continue to be made.
Blue_chalk
Registered
Mark Avlon said:
Mark,
I understand that these refs have been trained as much as any amateur referee can be in this country. The point that I am trying to convey is that this should be an ongoing educational effort to be the caliber of referee that I know you guys want to be and the IPT needs.
Where a referee needs to stand and where players sometimes think they need to stand is not the same. On many hits you are looking for the cueball reaction and other indicators. Grady contending that you HAVE to stand right over the balls to see the hit is just plain wrong.
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I was at a nearby table and seen the shot in question. It was without a doubt a bad hit, just barely thinning the stripe ball. It was close but the right call was made. And the photo diagram on gradys page isn't 100% correct. I hope this has helped.
Not splitting hairs, however
Hopefully K.T. was abiding by labor laws and if the refs were working 12 hour days he was obligated to pay then time and a half over 8 hours. That would add quite a bit to total payout. They also should have been getting regular breaks, and a half hour meal break during that time.
Bob Jewett said:
Hopefully K.T. was abiding by labor laws and if the refs were working 12 hour days he was obligated to pay then time and a half over 8 hours. That would add quite a bit to total payout. They also should have been getting regular breaks, and a half hour meal break during that time.
A question
If you guys worked 12 hours, did u get paid time and a half? ITS THE LAW.
Also do you know if K.T. only wants to use BCA refs or whatever. How about volunteers or pros who are knocked out or players who know the game enough to ref without training. I wouldn't mind ref'ng but I ain't going to a school. I don 't think it can teach me any more than I know. Hell I have been callling hits for 40 years now, but that may be a detriment as the eyes do go. I saw that hit in the Manalo match and I get a different impression from every angle. I finally came to the conclusion it was a bad hit but see, people see it two ways. Tough job at times.
Mark Avlon said:
If you guys worked 12 hours, did u get paid time and a half? ITS THE LAW.
Also do you know if K.T. only wants to use BCA refs or whatever. How about volunteers or pros who are knocked out or players who know the game enough to ref without training. I wouldn't mind ref'ng but I ain't going to a school. I don 't think it can teach me any more than I know. Hell I have been callling hits for 40 years now, but that may be a detriment as the eyes do go. I saw that hit in the Manalo match and I get a different impression from every angle. I finally came to the conclusion it was a bad hit but see, people see it two ways. Tough job at times.
derekdisco said:
So in your recollection did the cue ball double kiss the 14 off the 8? I mentioned in an earlier post that it should be possible to get the 14 to the X in Grady's picture if you barely thin the 14 and then either go back into the 14 off the 8 or else go 14-8-rail-14.
Just curious...
You're assuming they were paid. I don't know that they were. Also, they are not hourly union employees; I believe they are independent contractors. Pay is according to the agreement with the employer.nfty9er said:
I was watching one game. The "pro" was hooked and trying to hit a two-cushion shot to the 7 which had a good chance to go in the side. The shot went a little long and he hit the 1 instead and got a rail and the cue ball stopped by the 7. He said, "Is that a foul?" His opponent didn't know either. And both of these "pros" were playing for a chance at $350,000.nfty9er said:
Maybe one pro player in 20 would make a good referee. Many of them arrive with bad know-it-all attitudes and a nearly complete ignorance of the rules. They have no interest in standing for hours watching for other players' fouls or in preparing ahead of time to understand the rules and how to apply them.
I believe that he knew it was a foul, but the only thing I can compare it to is in pickup basketball when a person calls a foul about 3 seconds after it happens. You know you fouled him but because he didnt say anything right off the bat you play it off, only to hear those dreaded words "Ball!" (aka foul) So thats my take on it, the foul wasn't called on grady instantly, so he thought he pulled one over and then got upset when the late foul call was made. I hope this helps. thanks and god bless
There were lessons learned refereeing the tournament. It is clear that a larger staff is needed to cover the number of tables used and their layout. Opportunities for additional training of the staff have been identified and will be addressed. I fully expect that you will see improvements at the next event.
All of the referees agreed to a compensation package knowing what the hours and the staffing level would be. My comments should not be taken as complaints about the agreement. They were only made to inform the readers of some of the challenges the referees had to deal with and why some calls were missed. Refereeing the 9 day BCAPL national 8 Ball tournament and covering 40 tables for 6 hours a day is not even half as difficult as this event. I would be surprised if there is even one reader who has refereed under circumstances similar to this IPT event. What other tournament compares to this one?
All of the referees agreed to a compensation package knowing what the hours and the staffing level would be. My comments should not be taken as complaints about the agreement. They were only made to inform the readers of some of the challenges the referees had to deal with and why some calls were missed. Refereeing the 9 day BCAPL national 8 Ball tournament and covering 40 tables for 6 hours a day is not even half as difficult as this event. I would be surprised if there is even one reader who has refereed under circumstances similar to this IPT event. What other tournament compares to this one?
A small point, but my experience is that food catered by the hotel (which I assume is what was in the Green Room) is usually not cheaper than hotel restaurant food for the same thing. It's going to be at least $30 per person per 12-hour day.Blue_chalk said:
Bob Jewett said:
Bob, let me assure you...... . I GOT MY $30 WORTH!
I for one enjoyed having it available because I am diabetic. Just waltzing into the green room between matches (unfortunately I had plenty of time) and grabbing a small meal was a God send. It was pretty good too, but the best part was the "table talk". I've missed that.Tammie Jones
Sorry, but I bet to differ
You are the one that mentioned 20 bucks an hour, so I assume if that is the case(being paid hourly) it makes no difference what the deal is, the law states anything over 8 hours is time and a half. Union or no union. That has nothing to do with it.
Bob Jewett said:
You are the one that mentioned 20 bucks an hour, so I assume if that is the case(being paid hourly) it makes no difference what the deal is, the law states anything over 8 hours is time and a half. Union or no union. That has nothing to do with it.