Is 8 Ball Taking Over?

[Southpaw]

Just curious as to everyone's opinion about this big comeback for 8 ball. Ever since Trudeau's tour it, seems that everyone is now playing alot more 8 ball. Even Shannon "The Cannon" has started the Great Southern 8 Ball Tour which will be at the Poolroom 2 in Duluth, GA. this weekend. I think played at a professional level, 8 ball can be alot more strategic than 9 ball...JMI.

Southpaw

 

[gulfportdoc]

I think played at a professional level, 8 ball can be alot more strategic than 9 ball...JMI.
Southpaw

And it's a lot less lucky than is 9-ball. Since there are more shot possibilities, it's less likely that you'll get accidently hooked after someone's miss; and the game can't be won on the break!

Doc

 

[gregoryg]

That would be fun!

I always wondered why there weren't any eight ball tounaments other than the occasional bar tournament you run across. I would be glad to play in a bigger eightball tounament and see if I can switch over from bar tournaments to eight ball on a 9 footer. Hope it starts happening in the near future.

 

[AZE]

8 Ball (IMO) is an under-rated game. Everyone that I come across seems to think it's too easy - "you get to shoot at 7 balls, at any time! You don't even need shape" - those morons!

 

[gregoryg]

If you only knew!

It's pretty funny when I have run across players who are WAY better than I am in the poolrooms, out in the bars asking if I want to play a game. Once they realize how different the game is on a bar box and I drill them, instead of the other way around, they change their opinion of how easy it is to play on a bar table. That is the only way to get them to realize bar tables and regulation tables are quite different games. Not saying one is better than the other, just different. Both can be very challenging, just in different ways.

 

[Rich R.]

8 Ball (IMO) is an under-rated game. Everyone that I come across seems to think it's too easy - "you get to shoot at 7 balls, at any time! You don't even need shape" - those morons!

They always seem to forget about the 7 balls that are just in the way of everything you want to do.

 

[pharaoh68]

8 Ball (IMO) is an under-rated game. Everyone that I come across seems to think it's too easy - "you get to shoot at 7 balls, at any time! You don't even need shape" - those morons!

I'm one of those morons. I've played 8 ball for several years. I've played 9 ball for several years. 8 ball is A LOT easier. There is simply no comparison.

 

[pete lafond]

And it's a lot less lucky than is 9-ball. Since there are more shot possibilities, it's less likely that you'll get accidently hooked after someone's miss; and the game can't be won on the break!

Doc

I think if 9 ball were call ball, it would be a better game. Also 8 ball has an equal luck factor with exception to making the 8.

I have noticed that there are more 8 ball regulation table events today. Mixing up the games 8 ball/9 ball does make pool more interesting to watch.

 

[Cornerman]

Just curious as to everyone's opinion about this big comeback for 8 ball. Ever since Trudeau's tour it, seems that everyone is now playing alot more 8 ball. Even Shannon "The Cannon" has started the Great Southern 8 Ball Tour which will be at the Poolroom 2 in Duluth, GA. this weekend. I think played at a professional level, 8 ball can be alot more strategic than 9 ball...JMI.

Southpaw

I love it. I play more 8-ball than the other games. I always have.

That being said, I don't think 8-ball is more strategic for the professionals. IMO, that's false hope. The professionals are such good shotmakers and position players that what is "proper strategy" and "proper patterns" (which the rest of us mere mortals should be striving for) are pretty much thrown out the window for these guys. They rarely play the "proper pattern," and they rarely get into any safety battles.

I also think 8-ball for most players is much more lucky than 9-ball ever is, but on a subtle level. In 9-ball, the luck is very obvious. In 8-ball, you can get very very very bad on your position play, and still have options. You can go off "ten men and a boy," and still get a perfect leave. You can hit a ball nearly perfectly, and still get stuck badly just because how your suit lays. It's that subtle luck that many people seem to overlook.

And in the end, I also am one of those morons who think that 8-ball is an easier game.

Fred <~~~ 8-ball player

 

[Southpaw]

I dont think having alot of options means the game is necessarily easier. If thats the case, then straight pool should be a breeze...any ball in any pocket, nothing to it huh? I watched the 8 ball match between Cliff Joyner and Stevie Moore a few weeks ago in Atlanta, and Cliff being of such a one pocket background turned into a stragety game. I think that the rules you play by in 8 ball make a difference too. They played it was open after the break...which made the break a HUGE factor. I think that having 8 ball tournies is a good idea for pool.

Southpaw

 

[AZE]

9 ball, go from one ball to the two ball, to the three ball - if you can't run out - go for the best safe - they only have that ONE ball to hit, so the safes are pretty easy to accomplish.

8 Ball, you have to determine if the run-out is possible or likely. If so, go for it, but if you **** up along the way, and lets say run 5balls, then and get some funky shape on the next ball - you can't get around to the other.. now what? Play safe? You're not given as many saftey options, and even if you do pull it off, and leave the opponent no makeable shot - they (considering they have 7 or so balls left on the table, 8 if you include that 8ball) have alot of possibilitys to leave you safe. That's just one part of it.
8 Ball isn't as easy as alot of people think. And if you think it is, you're either a really good player - or a not so knowledgable player who thinks that they're good at 8ball because you make balls good, and beat alot of people.
I don't think there are alot of good 8ball players (out side of the pros, and even then..). Just because you win all the time at 8ball doesn't mean you're a good 8ball player. Because you're likely not playing very good 8 ball players. I know ALOT of guys who play jam up 9ball, and jam up 1p, and even jam up straight pool, and still aren't nessicarly good 8ball players.

 

[PoolSleuth]

I play 9, 10, and One Pocket more than 8 BALL

 

[Blackjack]

The only true test (IMO) is 14.1 Continuous. I think that if marketed correctly, straight pool can once again be the game of professionals. I have nothing against 8 ball, but I believe that the cat and mouse aspect of 8 ball will chase off fans that do not have an appreciation for the strategy involved. I believe that many tournaments will continue with 9 ball because the matches go quicker. If the IPT would concentrate more on pool rather than the personalities, perhaps 8 ball can overtake 9 ball in popularity.

 

[Cornerman]

I dont think having alot of options means the game is necessarily easier.

Sure it does. And, there are other things aside from options that make it easier. Specifically, lucking into another option.

If thats the case, then straight pool should be a breeze...any ball in any pocket, nothing to it huh?

IMO, Straight pool is a breeze. If it weren't a breeze, professionals wouldn't be running hundreds. Note very clearly, I'm not saying that running hundreds is a breeze. I'm not saying that it doesn't take a lifetime to master. I'm saying that the game of 14.1 is easier because you can have so many options. And note very clearly, I'm not saying that 14.1 isn't a challenge or anything like that. It absolutely is.

Many people consider 14.1 as the greatest teaching game. It absolutely is. It can't be the greatest teaching game and be the most difficult game at the same time. But, it can be used as a quantitative differentiator at whose skill is better, due to its continuous nature. (See BlackJack's comment on 14.1). Imagine this discussion if it wasn't a continous nature?

A quantitative way to look at what I'm saying is to look at three cushion. That's a game that anyone can play. You can luck into score. But, what are the runs for 3C? The high run is about 30. Which is easier? To score a 30 run at 3C (nearly impossible for the greatest playes in the world) or score 30 at 14.1(possible for even us ham and eggers)? Same with other pool games like one pocket. Even on a wide open table, running 8 and out into one pocket takes more skill than running 8 in straight pool.

Which is easier? To runout a wide open 8-ball rack, or runout a wide open 9-ball rack. That's a tough question, so I ask it differently. Which one would you get punished more if you screw up the runout by a little?

These are things to think about, not to debate.

Fred

 

[Williebetmore]

I love it. I play more 8-ball than the other games. I always have.

That being said, I don't think 8-ball is more strategic for the professionals. IMO, that's false hope. The professionals are such good shotmakers and position players that what is "proper strategy" and "proper patterns" (which the rest of us mere mortals should be striving for) are pretty much thrown out the window for these guys. They rarely play the "proper pattern," and they rarely get into any safety battles.

C-man,
I have to agree completely.

I just finished watching 2 matches from the LA 8 ball tournament in 2000 or 2001(tournament organized by Jay Helfert). In 2 long matches (Reyes-Immonen, Reyes-Archer) there was precious little strategy or safety play. The same level of play was evident in the DCC IPT qualifier this year.

I have had 2 very strong IPT players tell me the same thing (echoing Earl's oft repeated sentiment), that the game is too easy to differentiate the best players (ie. the best player is not guaranteed to win - the random results of the power break are a stronger determining factor than a small difference in skill level).

Here are the "Betmore Rules" for predicting the winner of any rack between the top pros (remember THESE GUYS ARE NOT SHORTSTOPS).

#1 - You miss a ball - you lose.
#2 - You fail to make a ball on the break - you lose.
#3 - You snooker yourself or miss position badly - you lose.
#4 - You make a ball on the break and have a clear shot - you win.
#5 - You fail to make a ball on the break and your opponent has a clear shot - you lose.

The corollary to these rules is that the first player to the table with a clear shot is the winner the large majority of the time. Like 9-ball, 8-ball is a great demonstration game to see the skills of the pro, but not the greatest way to differentiate the top players (that's why we have straight pool).

 

[Southpaw]

is [/I] a breeze. If it weren't a breeze, professionals wouldn't be running hundreds. Note very clearly, I'm not saying that running hundreds is a breeze. I'm not saying that it doesn't take a lifetime to master. I'm saying that the game of 14.1 is easier because you can have so many options. And note very clearly, I'm not saying that 14.1 isn't a challenge or anything like that. It absolutely is.

So, you think its easier to run 5 racks of 8 than 5 racks of 9 ball? If you think there isnt any real strategy in 8 ball, play someone like Archer or Cliff J. If its really easier....you should have a better chance at beating one of them 8 ball, correct? All of these posts are talking about options with wide open tables...what if there are clusters of balls or your opponents ball is hanging in a pocket blocking your balls.....you will not always come to the table with the balls wide open. Thats where the more strategic player and better player will prevail. 9 ball is a shot makers game, in 8 ball...you have to bring more thinking to the table. And if you think running 30 balls in straight pool is fairly easy...you should try it sometimes.

Southpaw

 

[Gregg]

I think that people focus TOO much on top level play, if they truly want to bring pool to the masses.

Fact is that many people, if not most, have never played any game other than eight ball, in the United States. Few know the most basic of rules of nine ball, like ball in hand after a foul, or even what constitutes a foul. The majority sit and watch ESPN nine ball without any concept of what is going on.

IMO, and every else has theirs, is that at the armature or enthusiast level, the lower skill player has a decent chance at winning at nine ball, less of a chance at eight ball, and no way Jose chance of a lesser armature beating a better, more accomplished shooter at 14.1. Again, just my opinion.

 

[macguy]

Just curious as to everyone's opinion about this big comeback for 8 ball. Ever since Trudeau's tour it, seems that everyone is now playing alot more 8 ball. Even Shannon "The Cannon" has started the Great Southern 8 Ball Tour which will be at the Poolroom 2 in Duluth, GA. this weekend. I think played at a professional level, 8 ball can be alot more strategic than 9 ball...JMI.

Southpaw

I don't know about "comeback" 8 ball has always been the most played game by the public in general.

 

[pharaoh68]

I dont think having alot of options means the game is necessarily easier. If thats the case, then straight pool should be a breeze...any ball in any pocket, nothing to it huh? I watched the 8 ball match between Cliff Joyner and Stevie Moore a few weeks ago in Atlanta, and Cliff being of such a one pocket background turned into a stragety game. I think that the rules you play by in 8 ball make a difference too. They played it was open after the break...which made the break a HUGE factor. I think that having 8 ball tournies is a good idea for pool.

Southpaw

Would this be the same Cliff Joyner who ran 7 straight racks off the break in an IPT qualifier about two months ago? Ask him how easy he thinks it is.

 

[Cornerman]

So, you think its easier to run 5 racks of 8 than 5 racks of 9 ball?

For the professional, yes.

If you think there isnt any real strategy in 8 ball, play someone like Archer or Cliff J. If its really easier....you should have a better chance at beating one of them 8 ball, correct?

You've fallen into your own pit. As I said (and Williebetmore has also reported), the professionals don't shoot with any strategy in 8-ball. And, as I reported from the IPT 8-ball in Orlando, it was Archer's poor runout strategy that caused his loss against Manalo in the main arena (the Mother Ship).

And to which game you want to play against a pro? It's a very easy answer: the most difficult game (for him) possible. The difference in skill levels are more easily seen in easier games, not harder games. I'd have almost no chance against a professional in 8-ball in any significant race with winner breaks. But, if the game were a tougher game (for both of us), and we flipped a coin to see who breaks, and we only play one game, then I've got a chance.

All of these posts are talking about options with wide open tables...what if there are clusters of balls or your opponents ball is hanging in a pocket blocking your balls.....you will not always come to the table with the balls wide open.

This is a long time discussion that I and many other posters have commented on many many many times. The professionals, it just doesn't happen like that. And, we are talking about the professionals. It's false hope. Please read Williebetmore's post. There are no more strategic battles amoung the pros compared to a professional 9-ball match.

And if you think running 30 balls in straight pool is fairly easy...you should try it sometimes.

Don't turn this into a misreading fantasy. I didn't say any of that.

Fred <~~~ why did I bother to boldface anything?