Is 8 Ball Taking Over?

[macguy]

So, you think its easier to run 5 racks of 8 than 5 racks of 9 ball? If you think there isnt any real strategy in 8 ball, play someone like Archer or Cliff J. If its really easier....you should have a better chance at beating one of them 8 ball, correct? All of these posts are talking about options with wide open tables...what if there are clusters of balls or your opponents ball is hanging in a pocket blocking your balls.....you will not always come to the table with the balls wide open. Thats where the more strategic player and better player will prevail. 9 ball is a shot makers game, in 8 ball...you have to bring more thinking to the table. And if you think running 30 balls in straight pool is fairly easy...you should try it sometimes.

Southpaw

I think on a 9 foot table it is easier to run out in 8 ball. I remember watching Gean Cooper playing Joe Salazar 8 ball one night and it was just a war of running out. One would run two or three rack and the other would do the same thing. It went on like that for hours. I was at a tournament in Las Vegas a few years back with pros playing 8 ball and it seemed all they did was run out multiple racks, I believe Efren may have run a whole set. I don't think you can dispute pros will run out more playing 8 ball then 9 ball.

 

[Southpaw]

Which is easier? To score a 30 run at 3C (nearly impossible for the greatest playes in the world) or score 30 at 14.1(possible for even us ham and eggers)?

This isnt compairing apples to apples.....try and run 30 balls playing straight pool and see how easy it is. I would like to see a TOP player play the 9 ball ghost in a race to 10 and then play the ghost in 8 ball race to 10 and then see which he thinks is easier! Im betting they will like the 9 ball ghost game alot more.....

Southpaw

 

[jsp]

I have had 2 very strong IPT players tell me the same thing (echoing Earl's oft repeated sentiment), that the game is too easy to differentiate the best players (ie. the best player is not guaranteed to win - the random results of the power break are a stronger determining factor than a small difference in skill level).

And the names of these two IPT players are? Inquiring minds want to know...and also where they finished in the KOTH tournament.

 

[rackmsuckr]

How about looking at it from this angle? Would you rather have an opponent race you to 1 in 8ball or 9ball?

 

[pharaoh68]

So, you think its easier to run 5 racks of 8 than 5 racks of 9 ball?

Definitely. I've run a 5 pack playing 9 ball once in my life and it was a fluke. It'll likely never happen again. I've strung 4 together in 8 ball more than once. I've done 3 several times as well. Its just an easier game.

If you think there isnt any real strategy in 8 ball, play someone like Archer or Cliff J. If its really easier....you should have a better chance at beating one of them 8 ball, correct?

Call me crazy, but I'd never play either in 9 ball whereas I'd try them in 8 ball. I'm not saying I'd win. Not by a long shot. But I like my odds a lot better.

All of these posts are talking about options with wide open tables...what if there are clusters of balls or your opponents ball is hanging in a pocket blocking your balls.....you will not always come to the table with the balls wide open.

This is true, but there are ways around this. If you opponents ball is hanging in a pocket, you can play a defensive shot by dropping his ball and leaving yours in the pocket. You can even drop them both. And as far as clusters go, 8 ball clusters are a lot easier to deal with. When you try to break up a cluster, there is a chance that the balls will not break apart the way you hoped or intended. You may spearate a cluster but still be hidden from the intended object ball. Thus, in 9 ball, you are left with a jump or a kick. In 8 ball, you just shoot a different ball.

Thats where the more strategic player and better player will prevail. 9 ball is a shot makers game, in 8 ball...you have to bring more thinking to the table.

Not necessarily. You have to bring just as much thinking to the table in 9 ball because if you are out of line, you have to figure out the best shot possible to yield the best results possible. You have to see every option. Cut shots, banks, safes, etc. You have to bring your shot making ability and your smarts to the table to get as perfect as possible because your next shot is already pre-determined. In 8 ball, you just have to bring thinking to the game as you don't need to get as perfect as possible on your next ball... because you have more than one next ball. You have choices.

 

[Cornerman]

This isnt compairing apples to apples.....try and run 30 balls playing straight pool and see how easy it is.

I really don't see what this has to do with anything. You have to compare it to something. That's why we're comparing which one is easier. I've run 30 balls many times. What do I compare it to?

I would like to see a TOP player play the 9 ball ghost in a race to 10 and then play the ghost in 8 ball race to 10 and then see which he thinks is easier! Im betting they will like the 9 ball ghost game alot more.....

Ask them, then. We've got a pro forum. I was at the Orlando IPT 8-ball. Were you? I got to see professional 8-ball players over and over. Read Williebetmore's post please.


Fred

 

[Southpaw]

I really don't see what this has to do with anything. You have to compare it to something. That's why we're comparing which one is easier. I've run 30 balls many times. What do I compare it to?


Ask them, then. We've got a pro forum. I was at the Orlando IPT 8-ball. Were you? I got to see professional 8-ball players over and over. Read Williebetmore's post please.


Fred

Well...you have obviously never watched Cliff Joyner play 8 ball. I have on many occasions. He plays at Mr. Cues II in Atlanta, which is about 35 mins from my house. Shannon's 8 ball tourney this weekend in Atlanta should be very enjoyable.

Southpaw

 

[pete lafond]

So, you think its easier to run 5 racks of 8 than 5 racks of 9 ball? If you think there isnt any real strategy in 8 ball, play someone like Archer or Cliff J. If its really easier....you should have a better chance at beating one of them 8 ball, correct? All of these posts are talking about options with wide open tables...what if there are clusters of balls or your opponents ball is hanging in a pocket blocking your balls.....you will not always come to the table with the balls wide open. Thats where the more strategic player and better player will prevail. 9 ball is a shot makers game, in 8 ball...you have to bring more thinking to the table. And if you think running 30 balls in straight pool is fairly easy...you should try it sometimes.

Southpaw

I have run more racks of 8 ball than 9 and I seldom play 8 ball. The reason I think this happens is that after breaking 8 ball I almost always have not only a shot but a choice to begin pattern play.

I do think 8 ball is a fun game to watch and play, especially when the table layout is tough.

 

[Cornerman]

Well...you have obviously never watched Cliff Joyner play 8 ball. I have on many occasions. He plays at Mr. Cues II in Atlanta, which is about 35 mins from my house.
Southpaw

You're basing your entire assessment on Cliff Joyner? If you saw the IPT 8-ball, with a ton of professionals, or any other 9' table 8-ball tournament with a ton of professionals, you might get a broader perspective and a maybe a more complete assessment. The wonderful strategy of 8-ball isn't as prevalent in the professional 8-ball tournaments as many would hope.

Shannon's 8 ball tourney this weekend in Atlanta should be very enjoyable.

It should be. Will it be on 9' tables? If so, please report your observations here.

Fred

 

[Southpaw]

Yes. they will be playing on Brunswick Gold Crown IV tables.

Southpaw

 

[Harvywallbanger]

I used to think 8-ball was easier but now I think 9 ball is. It depends on your own level of play I would say. Lets say you have 2 (almost) identical run out players. Person A plays zone shape and rarely gets out of line playing the angles like he's supposed to and opts for the harder shots at times in order to stay in line. This person may find 9-ball easier. Person B plays pin point accuracy and would rather cross his angle every now and then to get perfect shape. This person may find 8-ball easier. Hell I don't know.

If its easier to run a 9 ball rack does that make it an easier game to play a set with someone? Getting a 6 pack put on me is not what I would call an easy game. I would say it works both ways. EXAMPLE: a guy can run 6 9-ball racks and only 3 8-ball racks. Some would say 9-ball is easier for him/her but what about the person in the chair.

 

[pharaoh68]

....try and run 30 balls playing straight pool and see how easy it is. I would like to see a TOP player play the 9 ball ghost in a race to 10 and then play the ghost in 8 ball race to 10 and then see which he thinks is easier! Im betting they will like the 9 ball ghost game alot more.....

Southpaw

I would say a minimum of 7 out of 10 will opt for the 8 ball game because of the break alone. One of the hardest parts of 9 ball is breaking effectively, meaning you spread the balls well, control your cue ball, and leave a shot on the 1 ball (or lowest ball). Of these three factors, only one relies on skill - controlling the cue ball. Aside from that, pocketing balls depends on the rack and lay of the table depends on both the rack and a bit of luck.

In 8 ball, all you have to do is control the cue ball. A halfway decent spread is enough for a top player to deal with clusters. And he gets to shoot at whatever he wants after the break!!! He has options!

Oh, and as far as running 30 in straight, try it. Now try running 30 consecutive balls in 9 ball. Tell me what you think is easier!

 

[Cornerman]

I used to think 8-ball was easier but now I think 9 ball is. It depends on your own level of play I would say. Lets say you have 2 (almost) identical run out players. Person A plays zone shape and rarely gets out of line playing the angles like he's supposed to and opts for the harder shots at times in order to stay in line. This person may find 9-ball easier. Person B plays pin point accuracy and would rather cross his angle every now and then to get perfect shape. This person may find 8-ball easier. Hell I don't know.

If its easier to run a 9 ball rack does that make it an easier game to play a set with someone? Getting a 6 pack put on me is not what I would call an easy game. I would say it works both ways. EXAMPLE: a guy can run 6 9-ball racks and only 3 8-ball racks. Some would say 9-ball is easier for him/her but what about the person in the chair.

Excellent points, which is why the "which is easier" type of debates are always... debated.

FWIW, here's something I posted a million years ago. Just my own thoughts, and some fodder for others:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

My comment on this is:

A beginner who only plays slop 8-ball (APA rules) will indeed do a
disservice to their progress. Playing call-shot rules will definite be a
plus. In addition, if s/he adds 9-ball to their arsenal, knowledge and
skills gained from 9-ball will prove useful in 8-ball. Especially on open
table runout patterns.


What about the other games? Personally, I think my straight pool experience
is the reason I play good 8-ball. The shotmaking from 9-ball has also
helped my 8-ball game. But playing slop 8-ball leagues remains the number 1
way for me to keep my strategic (8-ball) game sharp.


Can a beginning player who only plays 9-ball learn something from playing
8-ball (that will help his 9-ball game)? Probably, but I personally don't
think the effect is a great as an 8-baller who picks up 9-ball (which in
turn helps his 8-ball game).


Which game is more difficult? Since obviously everyone argues a point on
this thread based on their own definition of "difficult", it is a fruitless
debate. But I think we can break the "difficult" into several subsets and
debate on each. Which is more difficult to run out from the break, which is
more strategic, which has the tougher shots on average, which has the
tougher position play on average, which punishes missed shots, which
punishes missed position, which has more position luck, which has more luck
overall, and so on.


My personal feeling is that aside from any skill necessary, 8-ball is a game
that "rewards" luck more than any of the four main games. And you'd have to
go into my head and find out exactly why I've come to this conclusion. It's
difficult to put into words. And if you don't agree, then it's no use to
debate. I just think there's a certain level of luck in all pool games, but
that 8-ball by far has the most.


My advice: Respect and play all the games. If you've got an opportunity,
play snooker and billiards as well. Each of the disciplines will give some
valuable tool(s) for a player to use.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Fred

 

[Williebetmore]

My advice: Respect and play all the games. If you've got an opportunity,
play snooker and billiards as well. Each of the disciplines will give some
valuable tool(s) for a player to use.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Fred

C-man,
Tap, tap, tap.

My experience = I NEVER played a pool game I didn't enjoy. When that ceases to be true, I'll go back to playing golf.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Firstly I much prefer 8-ball and find it a game that allows the development of a greater range of skills and insight than 9-ball.

It's also a game that can make sense for beginners as well as pros. Whereas 9-ball for beginners may as well be a game of 1 ball.

I remember the talk about 8-ball being easy before the KOTH. Some pretty high percentages were being bandied about regarding the ratios of break and runs, or clearances first open shot.

Fortunately, the absolutes quoted earlier by Williebetmore do not reflect the data I collected at the KOTH.

Amongst the field there were only 2 guys with B&R percentages over 40%. Not dissimilar to what we'd expect in a 9-ball tourney. About 6-8 guys were over 30% and half the field under 20%.

Clearance first open shot also ranged from about 80% down to 40% from what data I collected.

I expect this season's open events to see about half the field over 30% break and run and 70% clearance from first open shot. Or thereabouts. Some guys may get a great run and do 50%+ and 85%+ respectively.

I think if too many in the field start getting into the 50%+ and 85%+ range then the game will become too much of a breaking competition, and pockets would need to be tightened to 4.25 or even 4 inches, so that there is more tension in attempting the out.

One thing I love about 8-ball in contrast to 9-ball is that once you commit to an out, it is almost suicide to turn back, and often the out becomes more difficult as the player moves towards the last couple of balls. 9-ball allows a player who messes up to still hold a dominant position at the table quite often through having the option of a safety shot and also in 9-ball, you can pretty much pencil in the result as soon as a player has got on a ball.

Granted some 8-ball outs can be relatively easy, but good luck trying to get those easy patterns when you're struggling or playing a quality opponent. There always seems to be at least one very tough shot to deal with in those situations.

What we do see in 8-ball more regularly than in 9-ball I believe, is fantastic outs, with a sequence of low probability, highly challenging shots, forced upon the players out of little other option but to plough on. Such 'throw caution to the wind' shots are less often seen in 9-ball, except in the case of ring games.

Just a few thoughts
Colin

 

[PoolBum]

I just finished watching 2 matches from the LA 8 ball tournament in 1990 (tournament organized by Jay Helfert). In 2 long matches (Reyes-Immonen, Reyes-Archer) there was precious little strategy or safety play. The same level of play was evident in the DCC IPT qualifier this year.

Are you sure you don't mean the Accu-Stats 8-Ball Invitational tourney from 2001?

BTW, those who say 8-Ball is easier than 9-Ball are right, no question.

 

[Williebetmore]

Are you sure you don't mean the Accu-Stats 8-Ball Invitational tourney from 2001?

BTW, those who say 8-Ball is easier than 9-Ball are right, no question.

PB,
Ooops, my bad - typo. You are correct. Dyslexia is terrible a have to thing.

 

[NYC cue dude]

8 ball in the future

The question wasn't if 8 ball was an easier game, it was if 8 ball would make a surge in popularity in the future.

The answer is complicated, but will DEFINTELY hinge on whether the IPT is successful or not.

Let's assume for a minute (whether you agree or not) that the IPT will be successful. This means that enough viewers watch, sponsors advertise and the tour takes off and holds it's projected 11 tourneys a year.

I know lots of pro players and their sentiments are all very much the same. If the IPT does well, and it continues with their very large payouts, all participating pros will concentrate on refining thier 8 ball game, whether they like the game or not.

The borderline pros will try to refine thier 8 ball games just to try and get better so they can compete on the IPT tour. Both these types of pros, when not playing IPT events, will I assume, go back to their respective home rooms to practice. When they match up at home, they will play 8 ball. To get a chance to play with the elite, the shortstops who generally play with them, will have to start playing 8 ball to get a game with them, and perhaps get better at 8ball themselves. The action starts at the top.

In turn, the trickledown theory will come into effect. The A players who want to get better (just like the shortstops), will be forced to play the shortstops and pros at the game of moment, the game that pays the bills and that game is 8 ball. The b players will play the A's and c players will play the b's and so forth.

This is not to mention 9 ball tourneys like the world summit and other upa events will no longer have much of a draw. (events like the us open, bca open and the WPC will still get good turnout). For instance, Johnny Archer told me that why would he spend money (2 or 3 thousnad dollars) for airfare and 6 nights at a hotel to compete in a 9 ball tournament, play 64 world beaters for a week and have to win the tournament to win 10 grand, when he can go and place 25th at an ipt event and make 20 grand.

Case in point, two excellent 9 ball champions matched up last night (archer and Deuel) in atlanta last night, what game do you think they played? 8 BALL.

Thorsten Hohmann is staying in NY with me, preparing for the IPT 8 ball tournament.

There is way too much money in the IPT for the pros not to concentrate completely on it.

Now, will the IPT be successful, that is another question entirely. But if it is, 8 ball will be the game being played by most players in the next 12 to 18 months.

Just my 2c.

rg

 

[tedkaufman]

Colin, good post, with insightful comments.

As a straight pool devotee, I favor 8-ball because of the similarities of dealing with patterns, clusters, trouble balls, key balls and so on. I also prefer it because it requires a lot more thinking and planning than 9-ball. In 9-ball, unless something is tied up, the only planning is staying on the correct side of the next ball, thinking in patterns of 3. Conceptually, it's a very simple game, where execution is the biggest challenge. When a position mistake is made in 9-ball, it's usually pretty easy to duck and play safe; you only have to protect one ball. Not so in 8-ball. As Colin said, once you begin a runout in 8-ball, you have a much harder time playing safe when you run into trouble.

I do think 8-ball is easier to runout for one reason: Usually there are multiple shot opportunities, so it's generally easier to get control of the cueball on your first shot. Once a good player gets control of the cueball, his chances for running out the rack in any game go up dramatically. In 9-ball, often you come to the table and there is no shot, or it's a difficult shot that makes position play difficult. But once a good player gets a handle on the cueball in 9-ball, I think it's considerably easier to run out a 9-ball rack than an 8-ball rack, simply because there is less that can go wrong.

 

[Southpaw]

Colin, good post, with insightful comments.

As a straight pool devotee, I favor 8-ball because of the similarities of dealing with patterns, clusters, trouble balls, key balls and so on. I also prefer it because it requires a lot more thinking and planning than 9-ball. In 9-ball, unless something is tied up, the only planning is staying on the correct side of the next ball, thinking in patterns of 3. Conceptually, it's a very simple game, where execution is the biggest challenge. When a position mistake is made in 9-ball, it's usually pretty easy to duck and play safe; you only have to protect one ball. Not so in 8-ball. As Colin said, once you begin a runout in 8-ball, you have a much harder time playing safe when you run into trouble.

I do think 8-ball is easier to runout for one reason: Usually there are multiple shot opportunities, so it's generally easier to get control of the cueball on your first shot. Once a good player gets control of the cueball, his chances for running out the rack in any game go up dramatically. In 9-ball, often you come to the table and there is no shot, or it's a difficult shot that makes position play difficult. But once a good player gets a handle on the cueball in 9-ball, I think it's considerably easier to run out a 9-ball rack than an 8-ball rack, simply because there is less that can go wrong.

These are EXACTLY my points. Well stated ted.

Southpaw