Is 8 Ball Taking Over?

Eight ball has always been the most popular game in the USA especially with casual players. However most serious players prefer other games. I think that more people understanding and playing one foul/ball in hand will add to the serious player playing eight ball more.
 
jsp said:
Yup Gallego just posted a 9-pack.

Although I do agree there are generally more packs in 8ball than there is in 9ball, I don't think that's proof that 8ball is the easier game. There are more packs simply because it is easier to make a ball on the break, and you have a choice as to what ball to shoot next.

In 9ball, you have to shoot the 1 (or the next least valued ball) after the break, and many runs die because they don't have a clear shot or a very low percentage shot on the 1. If the rules are changed in 9ball such that you have the option to pocket any ball after the break (except the 9 of course), before pocketing the rest in numerical order, i'm sure you'll have strings that exceed strings you'll see in 8ball.

So here are my generalizations on this debate...

* With an open rack, it's easier to run out in 8ball than it is in 9ball.
* With a congested rack, the better player will more likely win that rack in 8ball than in 9ball.
* There are more congested racks in 8ball than in 9ball
* There are more packs run in 8ball than in 9ball mainly because you have a choice for your first shot, not necessarily because the racks are easier to run.
* Luck is more of a factor in 9ball, especially on missed shots.
* Playing a safety is almost always an option in 9ball, but not so for 8ball.

So to sum things up, I still think 9ball is the "easier" game of the two, and when I say "easy" I mean it is more likely the better player will lose a set to the lesser player in 9ball than in 8ball.
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Great post, jsp! I don't agree with every single one of your items, but like you, I generally feel B&Rs aren't necessarily the only measure of a discipline's difficulty.

I also think you're spot on the reason why there's more B&Rs in 8 ball than 9 ball. Running 9 balls in numerical order is often times trivial (especially to upper echelon players), but the odds you're getting that first shot aren't in your favor.

I would say though, that 8 ball contains as much luck as 9 ball does. Like Fred, I just think it is more subtle than luck in 9 ball. For instance, with remarkable frequency, layouts are changed by a banger in his favor by simply slamming the balls.
 
I think pro's play 8 ball more offensively on a reasonably open rack. Given clusters, they will play a pattern to break them up. However, just like in 9 ball when a run out is less likely, they will duck. 8 ball gives them lots of opportunities to break up clusters unlike 9 ball simply because there are lots of secondary opportunities (back up balls) to take chances with. The other nice thing about 8 ball is that opponents balls can be used as stops and to kick into clusters without getting into trouble at times.

A pro playing overly defensive as an amateur might more often result in a lose due to his opponent's aggressiveness. 8 ball does require strong shot making at times and equally a strong CB control to break up clusters. Most amateurs do not have the same CB management skills and generally look to safes.
 
whitewolf said:
I totally agree. But my question is: how long do you think that it will take these pros to figure out how to use strategy in 8 ball?

In the IPT, where there is so much at stake, it will only be a manner of time before the losers, such as Archer, sit back and try to figure out why they are ending up on the short end of the stick.

BTW, a friend of mine said that he went to Valley Forge and watched the pros play 8 ball. He commented that they took a long time (2 minutes or so) to look at the rack after the break, and then ran most of the racks. Just an observation, however something to gauge the upcoming IPT tournaments.
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Am I wrong or did it seem as if Archer was struggling w/CB control last night? Like he really wasn't there mentally.


(edited) I think Mike Massey had a really difficult CB game...
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whitewolf said:
I totally agree. But my question is: how long do you think that it will take these pros to figure out how to use strategy in 8 ball?.
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They're pros. I think there are a handful that are paying attention enough to how to play 8-ball that the rest will quickly figure it out. That assumes that pro 8-ball continues to grow in professional popularity.

Fred
 
jsp said:
So here are my generalizations on this debate...

* With an open rack, it's easier to run out in 8ball than it is in 9ball.
* With a congested rack, the better player will more likely win that rack in 8ball than in 9ball.
* There are more congested racks in 8ball than in 9ball
* There are more packs run in 8ball than in 9ball mainly because you have a choice for your first shot, not necessarily because the racks are easier to run.
* Luck is more of a factor in 9ball, especially on missed shots.
* Playing a safety is almost always an option in 9ball, but not so for 8ball.

So to sum things up, I still think 9ball is the "easier" game of the two, and when I say "easy" I mean it is more likely the better player will lose a set to the lesser player in 9ball than in 8ball.
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I just received the July/Aug 2006 Issue of InsidePOOL Magazine where conicidentally, contributing writer of the "This is Your Captain Speaking" article John Loftus discusses the "which is harder:8-ball or 9-ball" debate.

He goes through many of the individual components of each game and discusses why one component in one game is easier comared to the other game. Of course, some elements are harder in 8-ball. Other elements are harder in 9-ball. Interestingly enough, he does say the opposite as jsp: that a lesser skilled player has more chance beating a higher skilled opponent in 8-ball as opposed 9-ball. Everyone's opinion and all that.

I think his article is the clearest and simply the best article I've read on the subject. He basically breaks it down in the very end as this:

8-ball is more strategically demanding. I.e., you need to have strength in pattern play and defensive play.

9-ball is more skill and ability demanding. I.e., you have to be able to execute stroke shots, multi-rail position shots, as well as the subtler soft shots.

So, whatever a player's strengths and weaknesses are might indicate which game is easier or harder to him/her.

Fred
 
Williebetmore said:
C-man,
I have to agree completely.

I just finished watching 2 matches from the LA 8 ball tournament in 2000 or 2001(tournament organized by Jay Helfert). In 2 long matches (Reyes-Immonen, Reyes-Archer) there was precious little strategy or safety play. The same level of play was evident in the DCC IPT qualifier this year.

I have had 2 very strong IPT players tell me the same thing (echoing Earl's oft repeated sentiment), that the game is too easy to differentiate the best players (ie. the best player is not guaranteed to win - the random results of the power break are a stronger determining factor than a small difference in skill level).

Here are the "Betmore Rules" for predicting the winner of any rack between the top pros (remember THESE GUYS ARE NOT SHORTSTOPS).

#1 - You miss a ball - you lose.
#2 - You fail to make a ball on the break - you lose.
#3 - You snooker yourself or miss position badly - you lose.
#4 - You make a ball on the break and have a clear shot - you win.
#5 - You fail to make a ball on the break and your opponent has a clear shot - you lose.

The corollary to these rules is that the first player to the table with a clear shot is the winner the large majority of the time. Like 9-ball, 8-ball is a great demonstration game to see the skills of the pro, but not the greatest way to differentiate the top players (that's why we have straight pool).
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I thoroughly enjoyed watching those 8 ball matches on youtube

JAY HELFERT- have you thought of having another professional 8 ball tournament in the LA area? I'd love to go watch it
 
The Pearly Gates

IMO nine ball is harder cause you have to shoot shape on one specific ball. In eight ball it's whoops I missed that shape but I can shoot one of these other 5 or 6 balls. Whoops, missed my shape again, I'll just shoot some other ball. Much easier to play defense in 8 ball, balls everywhere! Must have much thicker skin in 9 ball because of all the crazy lucky shots that can occur, not to mention those cheese rollers! So here's my question. When you get to the Pearly Gates and St.Peter asks what game do you want to play against a pro player, which will you choose? Remember he's a better shotmaker and much better at all aspects of both games. I think I would hope to slop in some object balls, maybe even the nine, and not go to hell. And your going to choose 8 ball and out play the pro. Fat chance
 
Mr. Wiggles said:
When you get to the Pearly Gates and St.Peter asks what game do you want to play against a pro player, which will you choose? Remember he's a better shotmaker and much better at all aspects of both games. I think I would hope to slop in some object balls, maybe even the nine, and not go to hell. And your going to choose 8 ball and out play the pro. Fat chance
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You're (anyone) not gonna beat a pro in either game.
 
pharaoh68 said:
I'm one of those morons. I've played 8 ball for several years. I've played 9 ball for several years. 8 ball is A LOT easier. There is simply no comparison.
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What does "easier" even mean in this context?

You can run more racks?

I doubt it.... the runout rate is about the same for pros as in nineball... maybe a touch higher, but similar.

If you find it "easier", then it is also easier for your opponent... which means what?

I like 8 ball much more than nineball... mostly because luck isn't as big a factor. The better player will win more consistently in 8 ball.... IMHO
 
People who say this simply don't play good 9 ball or don't play many people who do play good 9 ball. Playing patterns in 9 ball is just as tough as 8 ball. You have to know your angles much better and play percentages much more. Yeah you can shit it in but you're not gonna win much dough doing that in the long run. Getting shape on 1 ball in particular is way tougher and getting shape on the 2 so you can keep the proper angle on the 9, 7 balls later is still tough.

I look at it this way. Your opponent breaks and runs to the 8 and misses, you're supposed to be a 95% winner in 8 ball. With 8 balls on the table in 9 ball, unless it is a wide open break you're still usually even odds and even with a wide open break, unless you're playing an A player or better he's still not 95%.

In 8 ball, if the better player tries to break and run and gets a bad roll somewhere close to the end he is still almost a certain loser to anybody but a C- or D player.

eastcoast_chris said:
I like 8 ball much more than nineball... mostly because luck isn't as big a factor. The better player will win more consistently in 8 ball.... IMHO
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If you think 9 ball is harder than 8 ball, take a durometer to each and test them. If one is harder than the other, you need a new set of balls :)
:grin-square::grin-square::grin-square::grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:
 
My opinion is that 8 ball is easier than 9 ball on a 9 footer. I think its opposite on a barbox though. A few years ago i saw the grand masters division at the BCA nationals. The tournament was full of the top professionals, but the top 3 ended up being some people who have played a lot of smaller table 8 ball . Shane van boening (won bar table nationals previously) Chris Melling (english 8 ball player) Stan Tourangeau (most decorated 8 ball player in canada).

I seriously thought Dennis Hatch or Ralf S. were going to tear the bar tables to pieces in that tournament. Although it didn't turn out that way. So I think a lot of people under estimate the difficulty of bar table 8 ball at first , but any good player can adapt to any kind of game with time and practice.

My opinion is that 9 ball is tougher than 8 ball. If all you play is 8 ball. And 8 ball is tougher than 9 ball on the bar table. If all you play is 9/10 ball on 9 footers.

Its just my opinion and hopefully i don't piss anybody off on hear , i've seen how a simple opinion on AZ can tear a person's billiard soul to pieces lol.
 
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