Is 8 Ball Taking Over?

[Cornerman]

I remember the talk about 8-ball being easy before the KOTH. Some pretty high percentages were being bandied about regarding the ratios of break and runs, or clearances first open shot.

Fortunately, the absolutes quoted earlier by Williebetmore do not reflect the data I collected at the KOTH.
Just a few thoughts
Colin

Just remember Colin that the KOTH tournament had conditions that were supposed to lessen those percentages. Do you agree that the percentages would have been even higher on less challenging equipment?

Fred

 

[BlackDragon]

I think its difficult for Americans to count to fifteen. They only have two hands. So 8ball has been slow to catch on. They can manage 9ball ok cause they give still give someone the finger even after theyve counted to nine.
If players team up with a manager or girlfriend, who gives them a hand maybe they can get to fifteen and eightball popularity will boom.
Though 8ball is a very smart game.

 

[pharaoh68]

I think its difficult for Americans to count to fifteen. They only have two hands. So 8ball has been slow to catch on. They can manage 9ball ok cause they give still give someone the finger even after theyve counted to nine.
If players team up with a manager or girlfriend, who gives them a hand maybe they can get to fifteen and eightball popularity will boom.
Though 8ball is a very smart game.

Are you saying that people of other nationalities have more than 10 fingers???

Who are these people?

 

[BlackDragon]

I wasn't thinking that deeply really, as usual. Being Australian, we only play 8ball. In China, they just play 8ball. I think American culture is faster, instant, so 9ball fits it perfectly then the American tables are so generous in pocket size which speeds up the game even more. Maybe life is complex there so when they play they want something easy and fun where everyone has a chance.
On tables in other countries with eightball, everyones chances are slimmer when playing a more skillful player whereby that player has strategy or a good eye for shot making.
It was just a joke.
I haven't played enough 9ball to know but I did play in Korea and it seemed easy enough. 8ball is tougher.
Still cream will always rise and in the long run the best players will win, whether 8ball, 9ball, big pockets, fast cloth, whatever.
Of course with IPT promoting 8ball, its the money game on the horizon, its popularity must zoom.

 

[supergreenman]

The original question......

Is 8 ball taking over? who the heck knows. All I can go by is my own observations here in Canada and what I know about pool in the states.

Most competitive pocket billiards in Canada is 8 ball. I'll even go out on a limb and say %80 +. In my city there are only 2 weekly 9 ball tournaments as opposed to being able to pick a 8-ball tournament almost everyday of the week and then having a choice of more than 1 tournament on some days.

I know 9ball is a lot more popular in the states than it is here, but I wouldn't even hazard a guess at which was more popular. I'd say it's close, with 8 ball having a slight edge if you include the masses.

As for which one is more difficult, I'm going to go against the grain and say they are equally difficult for different reasons. 8 ball has more traffic to navigate but given an open table, getting out isn't difficult. with 9 ball I'd have to say the most difficult part is getting on to a pattern from your first shot, or as a previous poster mentioned"getting control of the CB".

Play them both yay!!!!!!!!!!!!! (even better, ditch 9ball for 10 ball and 8ball)
or as Fred said, play them all.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, good post, with insightful comments.

As a straight pool devotee, I favor 8-ball because of the similarities of dealing with patterns, clusters, trouble balls, key balls and so on. I also prefer it because it requires a lot more thinking and planning than 9-ball. In 9-ball, unless something is tied up, the only planning is staying on the correct side of the next ball, thinking in patterns of 3. Conceptually, it's a very simple game, where execution is the biggest challenge. When a position mistake is made in 9-ball, it's usually pretty easy to duck and play safe; you only have to protect one ball. Not so in 8-ball. As Colin said, once you begin a runout in 8-ball, you have a much harder time playing safe when you run into trouble.

I do think 8-ball is easier to runout for one reason: Usually there are multiple shot opportunities, so it's generally easier to get control of the cueball on your first shot. Once a good player gets control of the cueball, his chances for running out the rack in any game go up dramatically. In 9-ball, often you come to the table and there is no shot, or it's a difficult shot that makes position play difficult. But once a good player gets a handle on the cueball in 9-ball, I think it's considerably easier to run out a 9-ball rack than an 8-ball rack, simply because there is less that can go wrong.

Thanks Ted,
And you expanded very well upon the challenges of the planning aspect in 8-ball.

When I used to play with mates over a few drinks, we'd switch to rotation games, so we could have fun focussing on the shot execution aspect. Cause after a few drinks, the mental work required for the planning aspects of 8-ball is just too much hard work.

I feel it's a game that rewards creativity and a lot of work on seeing clever shot options and estimating better percentage out routes. Not to mention the thought and experience that goes into shot choice and execution in the games that get tied up.

I recall one of the IPT qualifier players stating that the number of shot options was so off-putting that he'd considered playing the balls in number order to make the choice selection easier. But clearly this would not maximize the out percentage. So being able to read a table for the best options is a science that requires a lot of thought and experience.

Other games such as 14.1 and 1-pocket share this aspect of course, but 8-ball has the advantage of being widely played worldwide in some form or other.

Colin

 

[Williebetmore]

.

Fortunately, the absolutes quoted earlier by Williebetmore do not reflect the data I collected at the KOTH.


Colin

CC,
Actually my "absolutes" are intended to be over-generalizations for comedy purposes. As with all such generalizations, they are close enough to the truth to make a point. I agree with all of your observations.

I have done NO statistical analyses, just reporting what I saw. It would be very interesting to see what the percentage of games won is by the player with the first open shot. Among the top 20 players (really the only ones to whom my generalizations apply), it HAS to be quite high (NOT talking about clearances or runouts, just victories). Unfortunately for 8-ball as a game, the end result of any rack among experts seems quite closely tied to the results of the power break - I hate that (because my break sucks and I'm too lazy to practice it).

 

[gromulan]

So, you think its easier to run 5 racks of 8 than 5 racks of 9 ball? If you think there isnt any real strategy in 8 ball, play someone like Archer or Cliff J. If its really easier....you should have a better chance at beating one of them 8 ball, correct? All of these posts are talking about options with wide open tables...what if there are clusters of balls or your opponents ball is hanging in a pocket blocking your balls.....you will not always come to the table with the balls wide open. Thats where the more strategic player and better player will prevail. 9 ball is a shot makers game, in 8 ball...you have to bring more thinking to the table. And if you think running 30 balls in straight pool is fairly easy...you should try it sometimes.

Southpaw

Well I'm a moron too, because I know for a fact that it's a lot easier to run 5 racks of 8 ball than it is to do the same at 9 ball. Massively easier (I would bet on this, but I'm not sure how). Case in point are the very matches taking place at the various IPT qualifers. There were several large runs (I don't know the exact numbers, but I know that in Atlanta one of the Europeans had a 6 or 7 and Joyner had a 5 pack, and there were numerous others). Meanwhile at the US Open which, in the events that I attended, was also 'break from the box', I don't think there was a single run of better than maybe 3 racks for the whole tournament.

I'll tell you this much, if I break the balls at 8 ball and make a ball, I figure I'm a 75% or better favorite to run out. In order to get a similar percentage in 9-ball I would need to a) make a ball, b) get a shot on the one, c) get a shot on the one that offers a decent positional route to the two and, d) have limited clusters of balls.

I'm not saying that I need all of those things to fall into place in order to run a rack of 9-ball, but I am saying that I need those in order to feel like I'm a 75% or 80% favorite to run out. In 8-ball all I need is for one ball to fall on the break. Hell, a good player can run 5 or 6 racks of 8 ball and never shoot anything but middle ball.

(and, FWIW, I think that one pocket is the best game of them all)

 

[Chris]

I'm surprised so many people think 9 ball is more difficult than eight ball.

For me, there is no question. 9 ball is far less difficult than 8 ball.


In 9 ball:

Slop counts

Game is over as soon as the 9 ball drops (assuming lowest ball was hit first)

9 ball is winnable on the break

Very little strategy involved in 9 ball. Either take the shot or play safe.


In 8 ball:

Call shot (except APA which allows slop, presumably to make the game easier for beginners)

Dropping the eight ball on the break doesn't mean anything, at least by world standardized rules.

Dropping the 8 ball early (except on the break) ends the game with a loss for the player that pocketed it.

Players have to find their own patterns, requiring more thought and sound strategy

Opponent is shooting at a different group of balls, which serve as obstacles when you're shooting.



Personally, I've strung together far more 9 ball racks than 8 ball racks, despite of having played well over 100 times (probably closer to 1000 times) as many racks of eight ball. The nineball goes in on the break fairly often (1 in twenty as an estimate), and combos on the nine ball come up fairly frequently.

Nine ball is a game of execution (and all too often luck), but eight ball requires far more forethought and strategy. Without question eight ball is the more difficult game of the two.

 

[Colin Colenso]

CC,
Actually my "absolutes" are intended to be over-generalizations for comedy purposes. As with all such generalizations, they are close enough to the truth to make a point. I agree with all of your observations.

I have done NO statistical analyses, just reporting what I saw. It would be very interesting to see what the percentage of games won is by the player with the first open shot. Among the top 20 players (really the only ones to whom my generalizations apply), it HAS to be quite high (NOT talking about clearances or runouts, just victories). Unfortunately for 8-ball as a game, the end result of any rack among experts seems quite closely tied to the results of the power break - I hate that (because my break sucks and I'm too lazy to practice it).

Hi Willie,
I seriously considered a disclaimer when I mentioned you, that you are one of my favorite posters here, but Breakup talked me out of it

But seriously, while we may see highlight clips and hear a lot of stories of 8-ball games that are breaking luck-out competitions, especially in the end stage of tournaments, I don't think that is the case with 8-ball with the 4.5" pockets on the IPT cloth. At least, what I observed with breaking there, it didn't appear to play as big a role as breaking has done in the 9-ball events I've watched.

But certainly it's an issue to track performance data on. If we see the break success rate having a
very high correlation with wins, then I agree the game would be less interesting.

Colin

 

[gromulan]

Thanks Ted,
And you expanded very well upon the challenges of the planning aspect in 8-ball.

I feel it's a game that rewards creativity and a lot of work on seeing clever shot options and estimating better percentage out routes. Not to mention the thought and experience that goes into shot choice and execution in the games that get tied up.

Colin

Planning in 8 ball is a simple matter of connecting some dots. The above post is laughable because, like so many others who start playing a lot of 8-ball once they get the hang of it they think they've unlocked some magical secret. All of the aspects of the game you describe are totally routine - anyone who plays the game even a little bit is well aware of them. There is creativity involved, but not nearly as much as in 9-ball. I will grant you that if you just throw the balls out on the table in a random pattern, 9-ball can appear[/] easier, but the creativity required when playing against a skilled opponent is much, much greater in 9-ball than in 8-ball.

I mean consider positions when you play 9-ball where you have to make crazy, off-angle shots to get from one end of the table to the other, or where you have to execute a nutcutter safety. You don't get options! You can't shoot some easier shot and come back to that one later! You gotta do it, right now, or you lose!

 

[BrooklynJay]

8 ball has always been a very popular game among beginners due to the fact that cue ball control is far more difficult to learn than simple shot making.

In my experience the patterns I use to get shape in 8 ball are far less complex than in 9 ball. In 9 ball the pattern is dictated by the layout of the balls. In 8 ball you have choices and most players would simplify the pattern for the run out.

Does this make 8 ball an "easier" game than 9 ball? I think it really depends on who's playing.

 

[Southpaw]

Well...I will be at the Poolroom 2 this weekend in Atlanta for Shannons 8 ball tourney and anyone that is not a top ranked pro that wants to play the ghost a race to 10 in 8 ball.....YOU GOT ME! Break, ball in hand after the break and if you miss you lose the game....race to 10. We'll see how many of you that thinks 8 ball is so easy will jump up for this challenge.

Southpaw

 

[supergreenman]

Well...I will be at the Poolroom 2 this weekend in Atlanta for Shannons 8 ball tourney and anyone that is not a top ranked pro that wants to play the ghost a race to 10 in 8 ball.....YOU GOT ME! Break, ball in hand after the break and if you miss you lose the game....race to 10. We'll see how many of you that thinks 8 ball is so easy will jump up for this challenge.

Southpaw

Please let us know how many takers you get.

 

[Cornerman]

Well...I will be at the Poolroom 2 this weekend in Atlanta for Shannons 8 ball tourney and anyone that is not a top ranked pro that wants to play the ghost a race to 10 in 8 ball.....YOU GOT ME! Break, ball in hand after the break and if you miss you lose the game....race to 10. We'll see how many of you that thinks 8 ball is so easy will jump up for this challenge.

Southpaw

Constantly changing your statements and stance, and constantly spinning what people have written is a sure way to NOT get any takers.

Stick to your original statement... "I think played at a professional level, 8 ball can be alot more strategic than 9 ball...JMI."

Look how far you've gone from your original statement. Now you are challenging non-professionals to beat the 8-ball ghost, claiming that we think that 8-ball is "so easy." Nobody said that. Many of us did say how much easier it is for professionals, based on observation of several tournaments. I would keep that in mind when you're throwing out these outrageous internet challenges.

Fred

 

[gromulan]

Well...I will be at the Poolroom 2 this weekend in Atlanta for Shannons 8 ball tourney and anyone that is not a top ranked pro that wants to play the ghost a race to 10 in 8 ball.....YOU GOT ME! Break, ball in hand after the break and if you miss you lose the game....race to 10. We'll see how many of you that thinks 8 ball is so easy will jump up for this challenge.

Southpaw

Sadly I won't be there - but make sure and make the offer to Stevie or Bruce.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

8 Ball played more than 9 Ball

On a weekly basis, if you include all the national leagues (APA,TAP, BCA, ACS, VNEA and city inhouse leagues) my personal guess would be approximately 200,000+ players playing 8 ball every week.

I doubt that 9 Ball is played that much on a weekly basis.

Are non-league players playing more 8 ball? maybe, but if they want to play in weekly tournaments, it's 9 ball.

I've seen very little 8 ball played by non-league players in a pool hall. The game of choice is still 9 ball.

If you want to just focus on the PROs, 8 ball is still in the minority of tournament games. Starting in July the IPT will run its first 8 ball event this year and there still is a lot of 9 Ball events listed all over the country.

Maybe the Derby City Classic will offer 8 ball in Jan07.

 

[lewdo26]

I made the argument on this forum in the past that I thought 8 ball was no easier than 9 ball. I changed my mind. I still think it's a great game, but easier to run out from the break than 9 ball is, unless we're talking barbox.

As far as the thinking aspect, I think 9 ball is more tactical (I'm using military definition here; NOT refering to safeties). The thinking in 9 ball has to do with "just how the HELL do I get from the 1 to the 2?" And that can be intellectually challenging, only not in a strategic (meaning layouts, problem balls, key balls, pattern percentages, etc.) manner.

Generally, I'd say all the skill-sets in pool can be developed playing 14.1, one pocket, and rotation games. 8 ball is a nice combination of all those aspects, and that is why I like the game so much.

That being said, I think those who state 8 ball is WAY easier are guilty of overstating their case. Even in the 2001 Accu-stats 8 ball invitational, break and runs never exceeded 50% average. And that's hard data, not I think this, I think that.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Planning in 8 ball is a simple matter of connecting some dots. The above post is laughable because, like so many others who start playing a lot of 8-ball once they get the hang of it they think they've unlocked some magical secret. All of the aspects of the game you describe are totally routine - anyone who plays the game even a little bit is well aware of them. There is creativity involved, but not nearly as much as in 9-ball. I will grant you that if you just throw the balls out on the table in a random pattern, 9-ball can appear[/] easier, but the creativity required when playing against a skilled opponent is much, much greater in 9-ball than in 8-ball.

I mean consider positions when you play 9-ball where you have to make crazy, off-angle shots to get from one end of the table to the other, or where you have to execute a nutcutter safety. You don't get options! You can't shoot some easier shot and come back to that one later! You gotta do it, right now, or you lose!

Granted 9-ball involves more complex positional shots (multi-rail, more travel), but I think you're severely underestimating the value of seeing shot patterns in 8-ball.

When I started playing 8-ball, coming from a snooker background I thought I was pretty good. The captain of the team I played for, who had been a state captain and many times city champion told me that where I see 2 or 3 good shot options, he sees 6 or 7. Hence, he regularly came up with smarter shot choices, and regularly made outs where others ran dry.

I learned that his advice was spot on the more I played the game.

I think even world class 9-ballers with little 8-ball knowledge will often join the dots in harder ways than is necessary. It's one thing to see a pheasible route, and another to see the optimal route.

Colin

 

[hobokenapa]

How about looking at it from this angle? Would you rather have an opponent race you to 1 in 8ball or 9ball?

Let's say you are playing race to one for $10,000. You can choose the game.

a) You know your opponent is weaker than you.
b) You know your opponent is stronger than you.

In each case, what game do you choose? If you choose 8-ball for a) and 9-ball for b) that shows that you feel 8-ball is more a fair test of skill. Likewise for 9-ball if you answer the other way around.