Is Delivery Part of Fundamentals?

[BC21]

Well, there's only one time that you move your arm and that's during the stroke, so there are some body mechanics involved there that are independent from other fundamentals of pool. I've read your comments on why you feel the stroke shouldn't be considered a fundamental. There are some inconsistencies in your argument which is usually a sign of not having thought things through entirely. Figuring things out as you go along is fine and while you're doing that, I hope that you will also look at the other side of this. I think I've made some legitmate and logical points as to why I am sure that the stroke is indeed a fundamental of the game, just like the arm swings are in tennis and golf.

I've thought it out quite well, looking at how we learn skills, all sorts of skills, from the foundational core (defined as "fundamentals") to the performance of the skill, which is the result of learning those fundamentals.

You seem to be focusing on the stroke itself, not the final delivery of the cue. In that regard, the stroke itself is part of the fundamental process involved in delivering that final stroke.

We can't say every skill we learn or work on is a fundamental. Fundamentals are typically at considered the roots of the process, not the finished or polished product.

 

[Bob Jewett]

This conversation reminds me of the Big Endians and the Little Endians in Gulliver's Travels.

 

[BC21]

i woud add "part of" to your statement
"Stroke mechanics are
PART OF
the fundamentals of the final cue delivery."
since how you take the cue back and how you move it forward are all part of "stroke mechanics " to me
i am not an instructor

Yes, but I'm lumping stance, grip, elbow position, etc... into "stroke mechanics", because all of these things are the fundamental techniques needed to deliver the cue accurately and consistently into the cb.

 

[bbb]

i wont quibble with you brian
but i dont agree 100%........90+%

 

[BC21]

Some fundamentals of position play:

Staying on the correct side of shot line
Utilizing the tangent line
Using cushions to help control speed
Utilizing the 30° rule
Learning the natural path of the cb
Learning how to use english
Learning when to use english

Note that your performance of these things is NOT a fundamental. These are the building blocks that allow you to perform. And the resulting quality of your performance (how well you play position) heavily relies on these foundational roots.

So, for the op, if you want to consider the delivery of the cue to be a fundamental, that's your choice. It really doesn't matter. I see it no differently than the example above with position play. We use fundamentals to build a finished product that we call performance. Fundamentals are always the roots, while performance is the outcome, the well-developed flower that blossoms and soaks up all the sunshine, or the rain, depending on how well you're performing.

 

[BC21]

the final part of the stroke is the delivery so to me it is a part of someones "fundamentals"
i am not an instructor

That's the beauty of language - you can label the "delivery" whatever you want to call it. Call it part of stroke fundamentals or call it the result or performance of fundamentals.

One thing is certain...there is no correct "instructor" way to label such things. Pool instructors teach people to play pool. They teach the fundamentals as well as things that are beyond what is typically considered fundamental.
Making the distinction between what is and what isn't a fundamental is subjective.

I happen to like order. Meaning, there is an order to developing a skill. We first learn the fundamentals of the skill, then we perform the skill. That's the order. First is fundamentals, then comes performance.

 

[FranCrimi]

i woud add "part of" to your statement
"Stroke mechanics are
PART OF
the fundamentals of the final cue delivery."
since how you take the cue back and how you move it forward are all part of "stroke mechanics " to me
i am not an instructor

I agree. I always considered the backstroke to be part of the delivery process. I guess you could isolate it out if you wanted to, but I don't.

 

[FranCrimi]

That's the beauty of language - you can label the "delivery" whatever you want to call it. Call it part of stroke fundamentals or call it the result or performance of fundamentals.

One thing is certain...there is no correct "instructor" way to label such things. Pool instructors teach people to play pool. They teach the fundamentals as well as things that are beyond what is typically considered fundamental.
Making the distinction between what is and what isn't a fundamental is subjective.

I happen to like order. Meaning, there is an order to developing a skill. We first learn the fundamentals of the skill, then we perform the skill. That's the order. First is fundamentals, then comes performance.

I think that's really where we differ in definition. Fundamentals don't go away when we're performing the skill. They're still there as we perform it. They are part of the performance. I don't see how you can isolate them away from the performance.

 

[BC21]

I think that's really where we differ in definition. Fundamentals don't go away when we're performing the skill. They're still there as we perform it. They are part of the performance. I don't see how you can isolate them away from the performance.

I agree that fundamentals are part of the performance. But at some point in every skill we leave the fundamental stages and enter the performance/execution stage. Fundamentals get us there and remain part of the performance, though the performance itself is not the foundation or roots of the skill.

As with my position play example, there are certain fundamentals that result in playing position well, but the actual execution of playing position from one shot to the next is not fundamental. It's the end result of learning and practicing good fundamentals.

In your opinion, where is the line that seperates the roots from the rest of the tree, the fundamentals from the resulting product?

With a tree, the roots are buried, but the tree still depends on them. They are the fundamental building blocks. When the tree sprouts up through the surface of the ground, the fundamental process is still at work but the tree is now seperate from that process. It's its own thing. And, despite the fact that it's still growing and will always be reliant on it's roots, we call this thing a tree, not roots.

 

[FranCrimi]

In your opinion, where is the line that seperates the roots from the rest of the tree, the fundamentals from the resulting product?

With a tree, the roots are buried, but the tree still depends on them. They are the fundamental building blocks. When the tree sprouts up through the surface of the ground, the fundamental process is still at work but the tree is now seperate from that process. It's its own thing. And, despite the fact that it's still growing and will always be reliant on it's roots, we call this thing a tree, not roots.

If you want to discuss fundamentals of a tree, you'll have to go a lot farther than roots.

Back to a sport: If you remove fundamentals from a performance, do you have the same performance? Fundamentals are the essential elements contained within a performance. The performance IS the fundamentals, not the result of them.

 

[BC21]

If you want to discuss fundamentals of a tree, you'll have to go a lot farther than roots.

Back to a sport: If you remove fundamentals from a performance, do you have the same performance? Fundamentals are the essential elements contained within a performance. The performance IS the fundamentals, not the result of them.

Actually, performance is the combination of fundamentals, experience, feel, and mindset. The fact is, every learned skill stems from basic fundamentals. The skill itself is general not considered a "fundamental".

With that said, I suppose you could call everything a fundamental. I mean, fundamentals are required to develop a consistent stroke, and a consistent stroke is fundamental to a consistent delivery. A consistent delivery is fundamental to pocketing balls and to cue ball control. Pocketing balls and cue ball control are fundamental to playing great pool. And so on and on...lol.

Thinking of it like this, where there is no line between what we call "fundamentals" and what we call "performance", playing great pool must be a fundamental also.

 

[BC21]

If you want to discuss fundamentals of a tree, you'll have to go a lot farther than roots.

Back to a sport: If you remove fundamentals from a performance, do you have the same performance? Fundamentals are the essential elements contained within a performance. The performance IS the fundamentals, not the result of them.

I was simply using the roots of a tree as an analogy, considering that fundamentals provide a base (the roots) for a skill. There's no need to go any deeper than the seed, which become the roots, then we have a tree.

I think it's a fitting analogy to sports and other learned skills.

Seed = the desire to learn a skill

Roots = the fundamentals needed to perform the skill

Tree = the performance