Is Delivery Part of Fundamentals?

[Dan White]

I think you're being a little too abstract with the definitions. I'm 100% sure that the delivery is a fundamental and is not just a result.

The way it hits me is that a good, solid delivery can be considered fundamental to playing. The way the OP posed the question, though, he didn't specify a good or bad delivery. The way he was posing the question it seemed to me that the delivery is the outcome. Bob said something about a gnat and I'd say tomato tomahto.

 

[BC21]

I think you're being a little too abstract with the definitions. I'm 100% sure that the delivery is a fundamental and is not just a result.

I understand. But the stroke is a learned skill, not the root or core of the skill.

I think calling a performed skill a fundamental is being a little too broad with the meaning of fundamental.

Fundamentals are the most important or primary elements when it comes to developing skills. The finished product, however, is called the performance.

Riding a bike, for example, is a learned skill that requires working on certain fundamentals until the skill can be performed well. But the result (riding that bike) isn't a fundamental. It's the result, the actual performance. And performance is not typically called fundamental.

No biggie... Fundamentals have always been considered the root or core of performance. But people can call any part of skill development anything they wish I suppose.

 

[FranCrimi]

I understand. But the stroke is a learned skill, not the root or core of the skill.

I think calling a performed skill a fundamental is being a little too broad with the meaning of fundamental.

Fundamentals are the most important or primary elements when it comes to developing skills. The finished product, however, is called the performance.

Riding a bike, for example, is a learned skill that requires working on certain fundamentals until the skill can be performed well. But the result (riding that bike) isn't a fundamental. It's the result, the actual performance. And performance is not typically called fundamental.

No biggie... Fundamentals have always been considered the root or core of performance. But people can call any part of skill development anything they wish I suppose.

What are the fundamentals of riding a bike? And while you're at it, can you list the fundamentals of pool? I would like to try to understand what you consider to be the core of these particular skills that you're saying aren't fundamentals.

 

[BC21]

What are the fundamentals of riding a bike? And while you're at it, can you list the fundamentals of pool? I would like to try to understand what you consider to be the core of these particular skills that you're saying aren't fundamentals.

A beginning cyclist must first learn how to get the bike moving by placing the pedals in a position for their right or left foot to start the pedaling process. The rider must also develop a good sense of balance at slow speeds, a good feel for speed and braking in turns, leaning left or right in order to steer the bike with shifting body weight at fast speeds, rather than physically turning the handlebars.

All of these things are fundamentals. The result is the performance, the riding of the bike.

With pool, when it comes to consistent and accurate stroke delivery, fundamentals include feet placement, stance, weight distribution, elbow position, wrist position, grip and body alignment. Stroke speed is developed through experience, so I wouldn't consider speed a fundamental. At the core of stroke delivery there are certain things that must first be learned or developed. These things are what I would consider fundamentals.

 

[FranCrimi]

A beginning cyclist must first learn how to get the bike moving by placing the pedals in a position for their right or left foot to start the pedaling process. The rider must also develop a good sense of balance at slow speeds, a good feel for speed and braking in turns, leaning left or right in order to steer the bike with shifting body weight at fast speeds, rather than physically turning the handlebars.

All of these things are fundamentals. The result is the performance, the riding of the bike.

With pool, when it comes to consistent and accurate stroke delivery, fundamentals include feet placement, stance, weight distribution, elbow position, wrist position, grip and body alignment. Stroke speed is developed through experience, so I wouldn't consider speed a fundamental. At the core of stroke delivery there are certain things that must first be learned or developed. These things are what I would consider fundamentals.

Ok. I appreciate your humoring me and my questions. I'm trying to stay objective here. So let's switch to golf for a moment. Is there any part of the golf swing that is a fundamental to you, or is it the same thing, that the golf swing is simply the result of the player's grip, stance, etc?

What about a tennis swing? Is there anything in the swing that would be considered a fundamental or is that also simply a result of other things?

 

[BC21]

Ok. I appreciate your humoring me and my questions. I'm trying to stay objective here. So let's switch to golf for a moment. Is there any part of the golf swing that is a fundamental to you, or is it the same thing, that the golf swing is simply the result of the player's grip, stance, etc?

What about a tennis swing? Is there anything in the swing that would be considered a fundamental or is that also simply a result of other things?

I'm sure we differ on this also, and there's nothing wrong with that. In my opinion, learning consistent fundamentals (like grip pressure, stance, body positioning/alignment) allow for the development of a consistent golf swing or tennis swing or pool cue delivery.

There are different fundamentals involved with different types of swings, but each type has its fundamental foundation. The performance of the swing is the result of that fundamental foundation. And the quality of that result/performance hinges on two things: The quality of physical fundamentals and what's going on in your head, mentally.

When we make mistakes, it's typically not in our fundamental mechanics, not after we've ingrained them into our body and mind. Mistakes are generally mental. We get lazy, don't pay attention, rush shots, take shots for granted, etc...

If cue delivery were a fundamental element, then it seems we would always be able to deliver the cue perfectly, because the very definition of fundamental is root/core/foundation, the beginning blocks upon which we build everything else. And fundamental foundations aren't easily shaken or disturbed by mental laziness or distractions.

So, if the cue deliver is intermittent on given nights, it's likely due to the player's frame of mind and not some intermittent breakdown of a "fundamental" cue delivery.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Apart from the joy of philosophising, is there any use in choosing a particular learning bin for "delivery"? Does putting it on one bin or the other change how or when it is is addressed?

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm sure we differ on this also, and there's nothing wrong with that. In my opinion, learning consistent fundamentals (like grip pressure, stance, body positioning/alignment) allow for the development of a consistent golf swing or tennis swing or pool cue delivery.

There are different fundamentals involved with different types of swings, but each type has its fundamental foundation. The performance of the swing is the result of that fundamental foundation. And the quality of that result/performance hinges on two things: The quality of physical fundamentals and what's going on in your head, mentally.

When we make mistakes, it's typically not in our fundamental mechanics, not after we've ingrained them into our body and mind. Mistakes are generally mental. We get lazy, don't pay attention, rush shots, take shots for granted, etc...

If cue delivery were a fundamental element, then it seems we would always be able to deliver the cue perfectly, because the very definition of fundamental is root/core/foundation, the beginning blocks upon which we build everything else. And fundamental foundations aren't easily shaken or disturbed by mental laziness or distractions.

So, if the cue deliver is intermittent on given nights, it's likely due to the player's frame of mind and not some intermittent breakdown of a "fundamental" cue delivery.

So it would seem that your definition of fundamentals are things that don't move, because once something is in motion, it can be affected by the player's frame of mind --- or do you have a percentage to share of what would an allowable margin of error in motion and still be considered a fundamental?

 

[BC21]

Apart from the joy of philosophising, is there any use in choosing a particular learning bin for "delivery"? Does putting it on one bin or the other change how or when it is is addressed?

Absolutely not.

The OP's question, "Is delivery part of fundamentals?", just opened up a whole can of philosophical opinions on the matter.

The answer is obvious if the question is reworded as follows: Is delivery a building block for learning how to strike the cue ball accurately and consistently?

The answer to that is no, because delivery is the final product, not one of building blocks used to create it.

 

[FranCrimi]

Apart from the joy of philosophising, is there any use in choosing a particular learning bin for "delivery"? Does putting it on one bin or the other change how or when it is is addressed?

Then why bother defining anything?

 

[BC21]

So it would seem that your definition of fundamentals are things that don't move, because once something is in motion, it can be affected by the player's frame of mind.

Not really... Body mechanics are fundamentals, which involve moving parts - muscle memory, feel, coordination with vision and other senses.

We're talking about stroke mechanics, which are moving parts. All I'm saying is that the final delivery of the cue is not a building block for the stroke. It's the finished product - the performance or execution of learned fundamentals.

The mindset can affect how well or how poor we perform fundamental actions. Hell, I've tripped on a crack in a sidewalk a few times simply because my mind or focus was somewhere else. But my fundamental skills for walking, placing one foot in front of the other and maintaining my balance while doing so, were still intact. My performance of those fundamentals, however, was temporarily sabotaged due to my own mind not paying full attention.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Then why bother defining anything?

Lots of things in the game need to be defined during instruction so they can be discussed and understood. Grip, bridge, backswing, pause, stop shot, stun, draw, cut, thin hit, half ball shot, shot sequence, .... Those words are mysteries to beginning students and need to be defined for them to understand the game and so you can communicate with them.

Deciding whether "delivery" is or is not a part of "fundamentals" is a pointless exercise in that it will not affect instruction or the student's learning of the game.

 

[boogieman]

I am not an instructor. This is an interesting thread with good discussion, it's an enjoyable read. Personally, as someone who likes to think and overthink pool, I think the crossover happens somewhere between the pause at the back swing and where the tip ends up after the shot. This part is all about performance, muscle memory, subconscious adjustments or however you want to say it. It is as important as fundamentals, yet without proper fundamentals this execution step either fails or is way more difficult than it could be.

Distinguishing where fundamentals stop is difficult as even with perfect fundamentals you can botch the delivery. A chicken wing is a good example. Great fundamentals have to continue even through this delivery/performance section, so IMO delivery isn't part of the fundamentals but it must occur simultaneously. Fundamentals continue even through the delivery/performance part of the shot. Even staying still after the strike is fundamentals. In a perfect world, fundamentals would not stop until after all the balls stopped moving. Even then if you watch a good player, getting up from the table still looks like part of a well orchestrated dance.

Maybe we should look at dancers for an example. I don't really know about dancing as I have two left feet and am not that interested in dance. It appears that, even though they are performing, balance and "fundamentals" are in sync with the performance aspect. They also get in rhythm, something important in pool too. I mean, you could almost say every pool fundamental is just the act of good delivery. Interesting stuff but very difficult to interpret to any degree of certainty. I'd say the more you achieve mastery, the more difficult it becomes to differentiate between fundamentals and execution. Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.

 

[Island Drive]

It's sooooooooooo easy to overthink this game.yet, the actions of ones delivery ''never lie''.
A player with unorthodox cueing/mannerisms/grip/stance etc will take MUCH longer to improve than one with out.
Players tho from the era/30's of pool 24/7 were capable of overcoming improper mechanics, but would never reach the level of Lassister/Crane/Mosconi/Ed Kelly.

 

[FranCrimi]

Not really... Body mechanics are fundamentals, which involve moving parts - muscle memory, feel, coordination with vision and other senses.

We're talking about stroke mechanics, which are moving parts. All I'm saying is that the final delivery of the cue is not a building block for the stroke. It's the finished product - the performance or execution of learned fundamentals.

The mindset can affect how well or how poor we perform fundamental actions. Hell, I've tripped on a crack in a sidewalk a few times simply because my mind or focus was somewhere else. But my fundamental skills for walking, placing one foot in front of the other and maintaining my balance while doing so, were still intact. My performance of those fundamentals, however, was temporarily sabotaged due to my own mind not paying full attention.

Well, there's only one time that you move your arm and that's during the stroke, so there are some body mechanics involved there that are independent from other fundamentals of pool. I've read your comments on why you feel the stroke shouldn't be considered a fundamental. There are some inconsistencies in your argument which is usually a sign of not having thought things through entirely. Figuring things out as you go along is fine and while you're doing that, I hope that you will also look at the other side of this. I think I've made some legitmate and logical points as to why I am sure that the stroke is indeed a fundamental of the game, just like the arm swings are in tennis and golf.

 

[FranCrimi]

I am not an instructor. This is an interesting thread with good discussion, it's an enjoyable read. Personally, as someone who likes to think and overthink pool, I think the crossover happens somewhere between the pause at the back swing and where the tip ends up after the shot. This part is all about performance, muscle memory, subconscious adjustments or however you want to say it. It is as important as fundamentals, yet without proper fundamentals this execution step either fails or is way more difficult than it could be.

Distinguishing where fundamentals stop is difficult as even with perfect fundamentals you can botch the delivery. A chicken wing is a good example. Great fundamentals have to continue even through this delivery/performance section, so IMO delivery isn't part of the fundamentals but it must occur simultaneously. Fundamentals continue even through the delivery/performance part of the shot. Even staying still after the strike is fundamentals. In a perfect world, fundamentals would not stop until after all the balls stopped moving. Even then if you watch a good player, getting up from the table still looks like part of a well orchestrated dance.

Maybe we should look at dancers for an example. I don't really know about dancing as I have two left feet and am not that interested in dance. It appears that, even though they are performing, balance and "fundamentals" are in sync with the performance aspect. They also get in rhythm, something important in pool too. I mean, you could almost say every pool fundamental is just the act of good delivery. Interesting stuff but very difficult to interpret to any degree of certainty. I'd say the more you achieve mastery, the more difficult it becomes to differentiate between fundamentals and execution. Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.

Thoughtful and insightful comments. But I am wondering why we have to distinguish between fundamentals and execution. As long as we have control that can be changed or adjusted, then there are mechanics involved. Mechanics that the sport can not be without are fundamentals.

 

[FranCrimi]

Lots of things in the game need to be defined during instruction so they can be discussed and understood. Grip, bridge, backswing, pause, stop shot, stun, draw, cut, thin hit, half ball shot, shot sequence, .... Those words are mysteries to beginning students and need to be defined for them to understand the game and so you can communicate with them.

Deciding whether "delivery" is or is not a part of "fundamentals" is a pointless exercise in that it will not affect instruction or the student's learning of the game.

Well, you can pretty much say that about anything, can't you? You don't have to call anything a fundamental, but you still have to do it. I think, though, that the word does serve an important purpose, in that it represents a key element that must be addressed by the athlete in order to achieve success. Stroke mechanics seem to fall into that category to me. The stroke doesn't move by itself. The player still has to employ a technique.

 

[BC21]

Well, you can pretty much say that about anything, can't you? You don't have to call anything a fundamental, but you still have to do it. I think, though, that the word does serve an important purpose, in that it represents a key element that must be addressed by the athlete in order to achieve success. Stroke mechanics seem to fall into that category to me. The stroke doesn't move by itself. The player still has to employ a technique.

In bold, that's how I see it. Stroke mechanics are the fundamentals of the final cue delivery.

 

[bbb]

Well, you can pretty much say that about anything, can't you? You don't have to call anything a fundamental, but you still have to do it. I think, though, that the word does serve an important purpose, in that it represents a key element that must be addressed by the athlete in order to achieve success. Stroke mechanics seem to fall into that category to me. The stroke doesn't move by itself. The player still has to employ a technique.

the final part of the stroke is the delivery so to me it is a part of someones "fundamentals"
i am not an instructor

 

[bbb]

In bold, that's how I see it. Stroke mechanics are the fundamentals of the final cue delivery.

i woud add "part of" to your statement
"Stroke mechanics are
PART OF
the fundamentals of the final cue delivery."
since how you take the cue back and how you move it forward are all part of "stroke mechanics " to me
i am not an instructor