Is Dominant Eye Really What's Important?

Lou,
My first thought was that I envy you.

I played pretty well years ago and was mostly self taught. The only tip I can recall was to get my head over my cue stick shortly after I started playing. For me that meant putting my right eye over it. My right eye was very dominant and was better than 20/20. Now it's 20/20 but with a slight astigmatism.
After shooting for several years, I had someone ask if I was blind in my left eye. He could see how much I favored my right eye when I played. I was a bit shocked. My left eye had always been quite poor, but I saw so well with my right eye that I had quit trying to correct the left. At times it couldn't be corrected to 20/20. And the prescription seemed to vary. Tired of it, I had quit wearing glasses... This was the first time I realized that I was favoring my right eye when I shot pool!
Fast forward to a year ago. I thought I was going blind (at 42). I won't go into all the troubles I had or how freaked out I was. Suffice to say that I had cataract surgery last fall. I went from being far-sighted to being near-sighted and my left eye is now easily corrected. That created some vertical imbalance at first (much less now). I also have noticed that dominance can shift to the left depending on my head position (not just playing pool).
I also starting playing again last fall after a layoff of about 6 years. For 4 or 5 years prior to that, I played very sparingly. I'm glad to be back, but it is very different for me. I thought it would be easy to relearn teh game after such a long layoff, but I over cut a lot of long shots, for one thing.
I spent a couple hours with Bob Jewett a while back. He pointed out that I set up a bit left of center when I am hitting what I think is center ball.
At this point, I think my brain needs time to get used to getting information from both eyes. I also think I had a cataract (to some degree) in my left eye for much, if not all, of my life.
I guess that's a lot to say just to say that there is no rule about how we see things and rather that it's likely many of us see things differently than you do.
Funny thing is, I did some things incredibly well with just one eye, things that are very difficult for me now.
Anyway.............
Karl


Holy cow, sounds like you've been through a lot, vision wise.

I understand what you're saying and all I can say is that, in my experience, when you end up "favoring" an eye it really has nothing to do with our eyes. Rather it is that you are favoring a PSR that sets you up in a position that makes it look that way. I know that I have to be very careful about letting a certain movement creep into my PSR that ends up causing my bridge hand to not only overshoot my bestest position by just enough to change my head position, but to also alter the alignment of my stroking arm.

It's sort of what i was recommending to Spider -- change your foot work or something else enough so that your head ends up where you want it to be.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Despite my less than steady hand and my less than steady nerves, I guess I'm lucky in one respect. I see the same with my left eye closed as I do with both eyes. I have no trouble "seeing the line". I've blissfully ignored all the talk about eye dominance and will continue to do so.

I guess we all look for reasons why we don't make every shot but I've never felt the need to question my visual perception. Here's my list of what goes wrong for me (for center ball hits):

- I aimed at the wrong spot. I hit where I wanted to hit but it didn't go in, therefore I aimed at the wrong spot. Sometimes you just aren't sure.

- I didn't hit where I wanted to hit. My alignment was off and I rushed the shot instead of correcting it, or my stroke was crooked because of the afore-mentioned unsteady nerves.

- And, of course, there can be a combination of the two.

Sometimes I think we over-think things. Do you suppose Mosconi or Greenleaf or Earl or Efren ever gave a moment's thought to eye dominance? Do you think they would have been better players if they had? My answers are no and no.


Rich, I've seen that you are a straight shooting sum gun, so save all the bs about that :-)

But I do a agree with everything else.

Lou Figueroa
 
Richard Kranicki wrote book called An Answer to a Pool Players Prayers. I think he cites Mosconi as a source for much of the information so the right answers are Yes and It did...... :yeah:


My memory is a little foggy on Kranicki, but what he says in that book is that he had some kind of relationship with Mosconi; had some of his ideas evaluated by him; and that Mosconi was the inspiration for him to write on pool.

He doesn't say what the relationship was or what ideas were evaluated or what Mosconi actually thought of them.

So the right answer is: no.

Lou Figueroa
 
I’m a 53-year-old who’s very nearsighted, and always have been. I wear only one contact lens, in my right eye, because that’s the more nearsighted one. I wear only one lens because with two lenses I can’t read a menu with 40-point type and carrying around reading glasses sucks. So my eyes are conditioned to seeing up close with my left eye and distance with my right eye (or maybe both eyes - binocular). I’m a right-hander but strongly left-eye dominant. Confused yet? I hold the stick under my left eye — otherwise I’m off by a diamond. I’m not a world-beater, I’m a B+, but I’m pretty sure I’d suck just as much/little if I were not cross-dominant. Personally, I think the whole left eye-right eye debate is just another excuse for sucking. Mosconi was a righty who obviously was left-eye dominant and he shot pretty well. Eye dominance is not the answer, stroke is.


Nicely said. I especially liked the part that went: "Personally, I think the whole left eye-right eye debate is just another excuse for sucking."

Lou Figueroa
 
Lou, I believe a lot of people favor (for example) a right cut over a left cut. The reason being is their shot line, or vision, messes them up on one and not the other.

I like a simple test- put a chalk line on the table. Then, raise the line 1/2" to an inch max. You should be standing over the spot to where YOU see only one line. That way, you will be able to see equally well cutting to either side.

edit: An easy way where you don't have to put a chlak line on the table is just to lay your jump cue or another cue on the table with the tip pointing towards you. Now just get in your stance with your cue over the other cue. You want to be positioned to where you see equal parts of the cue on the table on each side of your cue. That is how you should be positioned with your head to be in the right spot to see a straight line.


Neil, I think you're right about favoring cuts to one side or the other. But I disagree about the reason -- I think it's a setup issue, same with folks favoring outside vice inside english.

Also: what's a jump cue?

Lou Figueroa
just kidding
 
Lou,

I think your analysis of the methodology to play this game at a high level is, for sure, correct! A straight stroke is what I've wanted for Xmas for many years. Add a repeatable PSR and staying down on the shot, you've got milk.

This is probably achievable with some instruction early on, and being nurtured by better players around you as you progress. Having the right tools is the luck of the draw to add to the mix. We are not all created equal and what one finds easy, another struggles with and never quite gets "it".

One of these issues is a subtle, yet frustrating one. It is switching eye dominance which is what your brain is supposed to do. In everyday activities, it takes the best visual input and uses it to blend, yet favor one eye over the other. When you look left or right, you effortlessly switch dominance until you have a specific task in front of you. Detail work is given to your more dominant eye.

Most players never even know they have a dominant eye and don't care about it because they have never had any problems relating to it. I've never understood why people can't catch high pop ups or hit a curve ball. It has never been a problem for me. They are only seeing things differently than I am. With proper training, they can improve their abilities, but will they surpass me? You can go on and on about situations where one person's forte is a nightmare for somebody else. Suffice it to say that unless a careful amount of research is given to this frustrating issue, one would not understand.

Ninety per cent of my misses on makeable shots is because I get a false picture from my eyes. If I notice it before I shoot and reset, I can easily increase my potting ten fold. If I pull the trigger, I will dog the ball 9/10 times. The problem being I am looking at the contact point with the wrong blending of the eyes. My body sets up in a slightly incorrect alignment. The subconscious mind picks up on this incorrect alignment and does it's correction... steering the cue to pocket the ball. But the shot looks good initially.

After many years of an incorrect alignment from an improper visual input, and conscious and unconscious compensations for these errors, your stroke becomes a steering wheel. The lucky ones are those that line up correctly from the git. The game is easy when you are lined up right from the start or are corrected by a helping hand along the way.

It took me years to figure out why I could run 100 balls one night and struggle with a single rack the next night. I'd run ten balls and drive an easy shot into the rail. It just didn't make sense. I wondered who was going to show up every night I went out to play. I still don't have the absolute cure, but I know what my nemesis is. I need a foolproof method of keeping my dominant eye, dominant. Or more correctly, a way to ensure my visual perception is the correct one. This view matches my natural alignment and allows me to pocket balls without any compensation from my subconscious mind.

And don't say it's because of an improper PSR. Undeniably, your PSR is set up by the information you receive from your eyes. You need a routine to set up your correct visual input first and your brain undermines this in some players naturally. If you don't believe or understand this failing, every instructor should at least be aware of it as a possible solution to some players' woes. Dismissing it limits their ability to help a student solve a very elusive problem that comes and goes like an electrical problem in your car.

Best,
Mike


It's because of an improper PSR. (Sorry, couldn't resist, Mike.)

But more seriously, I know what you mean about running a hundred one day and struggling to get through a rack the next. But, in my experience it is all about the PSR -- unlock that puppy and you can run balls consistently. And here's another point we disagree on: early instruction and nurturing by other players will point the way in a general direction sort of way. But each and every player has to work out their own solution. So very many things go into a PSR that any one of them can cause a significant degradation or improvement in performance. Forget the eye thing and pay attention to putting all the components in the same right place. That, IMO, is what will lead to running the 100s on a consistent basis.

Lou Figueroa
 
#############
I need a foolproof method of keeping my dominant eye, dominant. Or more correctly, a way to ensure my visual perception is the correct one. This view matches my natural alignment and allows me to pocket balls without any compensation from my subconscious mind.
###############

I have the same problem, and am also working on this.

A couple of things I am trying:

- To some extent, you can force eye dominance by closing one eye and then re-opening it. This can force dominance to the eye kept open. This technique is used when using a monocular microscope. If you look into the scope with your right eye and see "two" images, just close your left eye for a couple of seconds, reopen it, and you will only see the microscope image from the right eye. In pool, try closing your non-dominant eye when setting up for the shot, and then opening it just before taking final warm up strokes.

- I have a second pair of pool glasses that I keep handy with the nasal half of the non-dominant eye lens covered with blue painter's tape. I put my dominant eye over the cue with head rotation (like Ralf Souquet). The blocked lens keeps my non-dominant eye from giving unwanted information, but I still have depth perception and can navigate around the room OK. Still working with this, not sure if it is a long term solution.
 
Like I called ---those who have eye dominance problems are begging for help and those who don't think everyone else is crazy or has bad foot-work :-)
 
none of the above

Lots of time we miss shots because
1. The tip shifted during stroke and hit either lift or right unknowingly
2. The cue ball condition changed when it hit object ball (slide/roll)
3. Forgot to consider bridge length, and deflection of CB
4. Some chalk at the exact point where white hit OB
5. Took too long aiming while down, and shifted from peripheral vision to cue / tip aim style (your tip aiming at point at OB not CB)
6. Cue shaft not smooth, or hands wet
7. If shot near a rail, CB swerve

At the time I missed this shot best I can estimate I had hit over two million balls. While a shot looks different standing up and down on the shot after awhile we are aware of how any common shot should look when down on the shot. This shot was about ten inches shorter than from the side pocket to the corner pocket and gave a full corner pocket to shoot at. The object ball was about halfway between the cue ball and corner and slightly off angle, hit straight on it would have missed the pocket maybe one to two inches. Super super easy shot by any reasonable consideration. I didn't take it for granted though, I was well aware that things didn't look right when I was down on the shot. I stood up and reset twice stepping into the shot. Things still looked wrong despite being on line with my stance. I was aware my eyes were playing games but believed I could force myself to make that easy of a shot with that much room for error.

Since this was the money ball there was no reason for anything but a plain centerball hit. All of the slight issues you mention that can make a fairly involved shot miss simply wouldn't matter on this shot. The shaft was clean and hands dry, tip was perfect and chalked although I could easily make this shot with no tip on a cue. I'd bet on ten for ten with a mop handle if I could find anyone to bet against me. The shot appears that easy and normally is although as mentioned I saw Efren and Bustamonte miss very close to identical shots, each time on a money ball themselves.

Speculation on my part but I believe the slight angle might trick our eyes into doing things that they never do with greater angles or straight in shots. It doesn't happen very often as illustrated by the fact that everyone taps in these shots the vast majority of the time. Obviously I'm not in the same class as Efren and Bustamonte but the fact that they missed this same "gimme" shot with a lot on the line indicates there is more to it than meets the eye, sometimes!

Hu
 
Like I called ---those who have eye dominance problems are begging for help and those who don't think everyone else is crazy or has bad foot-work :-)


The footwork thing is just one option. One of these days, maybe not soon but someday, you're going to be working on your game and go, "Damnit. He was right."

Lou Figueroa
 
The footwork thing is just one option. One of these days, maybe not soon but someday, you're going to be working on your game and go, "Damnit. He was right."

Lou Figueroa

I wasn't discounting your concept at all. In fact, I could prob benefit from a lesson or two about approaching a shot and setup in general. What I'm saying, however, is all of that is unrelated to the sighting problems caused by strong dominant eyes.

Regardless of where feet are, eyes are or head is--- we can't change how we see. We can only make adjustments that give us the "best chance" of seeing "accurately" which leads to the best chance of aligning correctly which helps us ultimately stroke straight.

All of this reminds me of this funny movie:
CLICK HERE
 
CLEARY

I find the old drill of hitting the ball the length of the table and back to the tip helps find center then verify with the stop shot straight in's.

Mark Wilson told me of a game with Steve Davis. Before the start of the game practiced the down and back drill for 10 minutes before he was ready. You'd think he'd know where center is but I guess there's center and then there's CENTER.
 
Lou, I believe a lot of people favor (for example) a right cut over a left cut. The reason being is their shot line, or vision, messes them up on one and not the other.

I like a simple test- put a chalk line on the table. Then, raise the line 1/2" to an inch max. You should be standing over the spot to where YOU see only one line. That way, you will be able to see equally well cutting to either side.

edit: An easy way where you don't have to put a chlak line on the table is just to lay your jump cue or another cue on the table with the tip pointing towards you. Now just get in your stance with your cue over the other cue. You want to be positioned to where you see equal parts of the cue on the table on each side of your cue. That is how you should be positioned with your head to be in the right spot to see a straight line.

Neil,

Thanks for this great test to see if the eyes are where they should be. It works without fail. At excellent teaching method for where the head/eyes should be. Will use it from now on for both my students and for me too.

Thanks again. :)

Frank
 
CLEARY

I find the old drill of hitting the ball the length of the table and back to the tip helps find center then verify with the stop shot straight in's.

Mark Wilson told me of a game with Steve Davis. Before the start of the game practiced the down and back drill for 10 minutes before he was ready. You'd think he'd know where center is but I guess there's center and then there's CENTER.

Well the moral of my story was, switching to my cue under my left eye fixed my problem and stop shots became much easier. However, like I said, I'll be playing fine and then out of nowhere, something is wrong. I'll then switch the cue under my right and and I'm back in business. It's not as easy as I just described but its the cliffnotes of my issues.
 
#############
I need a foolproof method of keeping my dominant eye, dominant. Or more correctly, a way to ensure my visual perception is the correct one. This view matches my natural alignment and allows me to pocket balls without any compensation from my subconscious mind.
###############

I have the same problem, and am also working on this.

A couple of things I am trying:

- To some extent, you can force eye dominance by closing one eye and then re-opening it. This can force dominance to the eye kept open. This technique is used when using a monocular microscope. If you look into the scope with your right eye and see "two" images, just close your left eye for a couple of seconds, reopen it, and you will only see the microscope image from the right eye. In pool, try closing your non-dominant eye when setting up for the shot, and then opening it just before taking final warm up strokes.

- I have a second pair of pool glasses that I keep handy with the nasal half of the non-dominant eye lens covered with blue painter's tape. I put my dominant eye over the cue with head rotation (like Ralf Souquet). The blocked lens keeps my non-dominant eye from giving unwanted information, but I still have depth perception and can navigate around the room OK. Still working with this, not sure if it is a long term solution.

I like the tape trick. You can still have depth perception without directly focusing your non-dominant eye on the shot. I tried a dark lens on a pair of sunglasses to cover my non-dominant eye. It worked for a while, but as my eyes grew accustomed to the one darker lens, the problem started to creep back! My brain adapted in about half an hour, lens or not.

Closing one eye does indeed move the shot over to the other eye. The only problem is it is a completely different view from my natural alignment. I have to move back to a more cue centered setup. I've found that if I squint rather than completely close my eye, my dominant eye can pick up the shot. The difference is that my other eye stays where it needs to be and I don't have to realign everything for each shot (I'm lazy sometimes). Less invasive, so to speak. I think I'll try the tape, though. Sounds like less work than squinting. :grin:

Can a person be trained to overcome this natural tendency to switch eye dominance? You do it all day long, but can you turn it off for one activity? Can this habit be unlearned in 21 days or are we doomed to playing pool like owls and closing one eye all the time?

Best,
Mike
 
At the time I missed this shot best I can estimate I had hit over two million balls. While a shot looks different standing up and down on the shot after awhile we are aware of how any common shot should look when down on the shot. This shot was about ten inches shorter than from the side pocket to the corner pocket and gave a full corner pocket to shoot at. The object ball was about halfway between the cue ball and corner and slightly off angle, hit straight on it would have missed the pocket maybe one to two inches. Super super easy shot by any reasonable consideration. I didn't take it for granted though, I was well aware that things didn't look right when I was down on the shot. I stood up and reset twice stepping into the shot. Things still looked wrong despite being on line with my stance. I was aware my eyes were playing games but believed I could force myself to make that easy of a shot with that much room for error.

Since this was the money ball there was no reason for anything but a plain centerball hit. All of the slight issues you mention that can make a fairly involved shot miss simply wouldn't matter on this shot. The shaft was clean and hands dry, tip was perfect and chalked although I could easily make this shot with no tip on a cue. I'd bet on ten for ten with a mop handle if I could find anyone to bet against me. The shot appears that easy and normally is although as mentioned I saw Efren and Bustamonte miss very close to identical shots, each time on a money ball themselves.

Speculation on my part but I believe the slight angle might trick our eyes into doing things that they never do with greater angles or straight in shots. It doesn't happen very often as illustrated by the fact that everyone taps in these shots the vast majority of the time. Obviously I'm not in the same class as Efren and Bustamonte but the fact that they missed this same "gimme" shot with a lot on the line indicates there is more to it than meets the eye, sometimes!

Hu

Hu,

I have a close friend that was hill/hill with Buddy Hall about six months ago in a nine ball tournament. Buddy runs three racks and scratches on the break in the last game. My buddy runs down to the nine and changes his timing a little on the last shot. He misses the shot and Buddy moves on.

We looked at the shot and realized that he lined up on the money ball incorrectly. He doesn't have an eye dominance problem, but allowed the non dominant eye to look at the shot. He missed and when the shot was set up later, he missed it exactly like he did in the game when he switched eye dominance unknowingly.

His PSR was exactly where it should be. Under pressure, the brain can take the best view of the shot which may be the non dominant one. We figured the brain reverted to instinct instead of training and a primal :grin: decision was made to go with the clearest picture of the shot. It was a back cut and the non-dominant eye was closer to the pocket.

A slight, imperceptible head movement brought the shot back into alignment and it's never popped up since. So, possibly the pressure caused an instinctive reaction which we can all be susceptible to from time to time. Just a SWAG (Some Wild A$$ Guess). :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
I'm glad you tried it! I was thinking that it got buried in the thread, and no one even gave it much of a thought. It does work, it's easy, and it's foolproof.

It works perfectly. Hope that one day we can meet in person. I'm sure I would enjoy that. :smile:

Regards,

Frank
 
I suspect it is an excellent guess

Hu,

I have a close friend that was hill/hill with Buddy Hall about six months ago in a nine ball tournament. Buddy runs three racks and scratches on the break in the last game. My buddy runs down to the nine and changes his timing a little on the last shot. He misses the shot and Buddy moves on.

We looked at the shot and realized that he lined up on the money ball incorrectly. He doesn't have an eye dominance problem, but allowed the non dominant eye to look at the shot. He missed and when the shot was set up later, he missed it exactly like he did in the game when he switched eye dominance unknowingly.

His PSR was exactly where it should be. Under pressure, the brain can take the best view of the shot which may be the non dominant one. We figured the brain reverted to instinct instead of training and a primal :grin: decision was made to go with the clearest picture of the shot. It was a back cut and the non-dominant eye was closer to the pocket.

A slight, imperceptible head movement brought the shot back into alignment and it's never popped up since. So, possibly the pressure caused an instinctive reaction which we can all be susceptible to from time to time. Just a SWAG (Some Wild A$$ Guess). :grin:

Best,
Mike



I suspect that is an excellent guess. Often our minds and bodies do things to benefit us in times of stress however it is also sometimes the opposite since those fight or flight instincts don't realize what we are trying to accomplish. I can't remember the cut for sure, easy to think it was a back cut. One of those things, I'd never remember the shot at all had it not been so ridiculous to miss it.

One of those things, I have trained my vision to do different things for different activities but only when I was staying in tune for those activities. I can easily swap eye dominance just holding my hands with a small hole between them a foot or so in front of my eyes and looking through the hole with either eye. It isn't too hard to believe I can swap eye dominance unintentionally too.

SWAG: I prefer Scientific Wild Assed Guess meaning there is some thought and logic behind it. When I worked in R&D sometimes we were stuck with too many variables and had to go with SWAG and build something to test. We were heroes when it worked, my boss was somewhat whiney when a rocket scientist and I designed and I spent $15,000 of company money one week building a paperweight. What can I say, as paperweights went it was one more sexy and sophisticated paperweight! Of course it was supposed to be a little bit more useful.

Hu
 
Ps

It works perfectly. Hope that one day we can meet in person. I'm sure I would enjoy that. :smile:

Regards,

Frank

Neil,

If you are ever in the Charlotte, NC or Columbia, SC area let me know. Just for sharing that info you get a free sailplane ride at Bermuda High Soaring School. See www.glider.org.

Thanks Again,

Frank
 
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