Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?

[ENGLISH!]

One more thing, if I may.

We don't raise our shoulder, we raise our arm by using the shoulder. When you're "down low in my stance", your upper arm is raised......and it and your elbow drop are dropping during the piston stroke by way of shoulder flexion.

And as they say.......that's a fact, Jack.

I think when 'we' get to a certain point & want to continue the movement, the shoulder does move.(or 'coil')

The shoulders can be 'slouched' or the shoulders can be 'pulled' back.

Have you ever used a piston stroke?

It seems you're talking 'pendulum' & Fran 'was' talking piston.

Best Wishes to ALL.

 

[BeiberLvr]

To answer the OP's question of "Is elbow drop after tip contact a bad thing?"

No. It's not.

I think a better question would be, "Is elbow drop [at any point in the stroke] ever a necessity?

No. It's not.

 

[DTL]

.....................

 

[ENGLISH!]

------------------------------

 

[Scott Lee]

OMG Rick! "Erect contrived road blocks" Are you serious? LOL How can you be so obtuse? :shrug: Ok...here's a "polite clarification" for you...a pendulum swing works from the elbow down. It does not engage the shoulder at all. It has a measurable, linear, nonrandom range of motion, that's specific to each individual. With that said, the elbow is a hinge, so it physically has to open and close in a straight line (wrist twisting notwithstanding). Things like grip placement, tension, and timing all play a role in how straight that line is, and the personal shooting template determines the other variables, including but not limited to, stance, eye positions and patterns, bridges and PSR's. All of these things contribute to developing and maintaining an accurate and repeatable stroke, especially under pressure. For many players, of all abilities, who struggle with consistency, if there is any shortcut to a good stroke, an SPF stroke is a good choice.

A piston stroke utilizes the shoulder, which is a ball and socket, and uses four muscles (vs. one/biceps) to deliver the cue. A piston stroke may or may not be a straight line. A pendulum stroke is a straight line, using the pinned elbow technique. A piston stroke has essentially the same beginning (tip to hand), but no repeatable finish position, making timing much more prone to small error. A pendulum stroke has the same beginning and end for the majority of SOP strokes (Standard Operating Process = Autopilot). That will cover 90%+ of all shot situations. That makes it easier to learn, takes less time to master, and once you really learn it, you never forget how to do it correctly (caveat: everyone has their own personal "correct").

Since tip contact is extraordinarily short (1/1000th of a second, or 1/4 of an eye blink), the only time the cue needs to be as level as reasonable for the shot, is at contact with the CB. Pendulum, piston or some other variation...all that matters is tip contact. Pick your way to deliver the cue...and practice. Since we're not deriding the piston stroke...just stating factually that it is, in the end, a choice, nonetheless more difficult to learn, repeat and master, than a pendulum stroke...you'd think you'd actually be bright enough to just let it go. Like Randy & Jerry said: There are two types of students...those who want to learn; and those that want to prove you wrong. You're simply the latter.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The implement is straight & it does not take too much effort to move it in a 'straight' line... IF... one does not erect contrived road blocks of either a conceptual or physical nature.

Polite clarifications however are always a good thing.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sorry, pitiful attempt to help out, E.

Slouching and pulling back the shoulders are slang terms for bad/good posture......but what the hell do they have to do with playing pool? We can also move our shoulders up and down......by lowering and raising our trunk by bending and then raising up from the waist (hip flexion/extension) or by squatting (bending at the knees).

But during a good pool shot, the body and head are frozen which keeps the stroking shoulder stationary.

And yes, we're talking piston stroke where the upper arm and elbow drop by way of shoulder flexion.

You probably know anatomy better than me, but I don't think you know a piston stroke & what happens with the shoulder.

I knew what CJ was talking about & I know what Fran means by what she's saying.

BUT...you made me go & check it out & I concur with both CJ & Ms. Crimi.

The shoulder is not stationary throughout.

Best Wishes to ALL.

 

[FranCrimi]

One more thing, if I may.

We don't raise our shoulder, we raise our arm by using the shoulder. When you're "down low in my stance", your upper arm is raised......and it and your elbow are dropping during the piston stroke by way of shoulder flexion (a fixed or stationary shoulder).

And as they say.......that's a fact, Jack.

Well, I guess it's just a matter of semantics, then. I have no problem with your calling it a pivot. I happen to disagree, but I don't take issue with you about it. But to attack me in the fashion that you have just because I have clearly stated my observations --- well, I'll just leave it there. Bye.

 

[DTL]

....................

 

[ENGLISH!]

OMG Rick! "Erect contrived road blocks" Are you serious? LOL How can you be so obtuse? Ok...here's a "polite clarification" for you...a pendulum swing works from the elbow down. It does not engage the shoulder at all. It has a measurable, linear, nonrandom range of motion, that's specific to each individual. With that said, the elbow is a hinge, so it physically has to open and close in a straight line (wrist twisting notwithstanding). Things like grip placement, tension, and timing all play a role in how straight that line is, and the personal shooting template determines the other variables, including but not limited to, stance, eye positions and patterns, bridges and PSR's. All of these things contribute to developing and maintaining an accurate and repeatable stroke, especially under pressure. For many players, of all abilities, who struggle with consistency, if there is any shortcut to a good stroke, an SPF stroke is a good choice.

A piston stroke utilizes the shoulder, which is a ball and socket, and uses four muscles (vs. one/biceps) to deliver the cue. A piston stroke may or may not be a straight line. A pendulum stroke is a straight line, using the pinned elbow technique. A piston stroke has essentially the same beginning (tip to hand), but no repeatable finish position, making timing much more prone to small error. A pendulum stroke has the same beginning and end for the majority of SOP strokes (Standard Operating Process = Autopilot). That will cover 90%+ of all shot situations. That makes it easier to learn, takes less time to master, and once you really learn it, you never forget how to do it correctly (caveat: everyone has their own personal "correct").

Since tip contact is extraordinarily short (1/1000th of a second, or 1/4 of an eye blink), the only time the cue needs to be as level as reasonable for the shot, is at contact with the CB. Pendulum, piston or some other variation...all that matters is tip contact. Pick your way to deliver the cue...and practice. Since we're not deriding the piston stroke...just stating factually that it is, in the end, a choice, nonetheless more difficult to learn, repeat and master, than a pendulum stroke...you'd think you'd actually be bright enough to just let it go. Like Randy & Jerry said: There are two types of students...those who want to learn; and those that want to prove you wrong. You're simply the latter.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

OMG Scott!

Nice sales pitch.

I thought you'd be along sooner rather than later.

I'm not going to pick apart all of what you say other than to say good speech, preacher.

The problem is that I am way past the point of needing to be preached the kool aid & the wool can not be pulled over my eyes.

I understand that when you & others sometimes say straight line as in the elbow hinging you do not mean in every plane. The length of the forearm moves in an arc just as a door swings on it's hinges.

A piston moves in a TRUE straight line as in a cylinder.

The pendulum method is not the most natural way to use the end of the straight line cue stick. It is a contrived method.

But, as I have always said, each individual should make their own determinations & be responsible for their own stroke.

I just today received another PM from a young man that has issues with you & what you try to teach.

If one wants to learn what you teach I would think that they would do so.

If someone wants to 'see' what you teach & does not agree with it then I would think that they would not adopt what you teach.

You keep doing what you do & each individual will make their own determinations as well that they should so as to be responsible for their own stroke & game.

Some will elect to go along with what you teach & others will not. Your way is not the only way & not everyone agrees with you that it is the best way. It is a simple concept & easy to teach though.

But why is it that most of those of the more accomplished level, like the pros, do not use a full pendulum method? Why do so many go with more of the piston J variety?

But... anyone that wants to learn the full pendulum method of the set pause finish variety should certainly contact you or one the SPF Family of instructors.

Best Wishes to ALL.

 

[ENGLISH!]

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

Fran Crimi is one of, if not the best, instructor that posts here on AZB.
She is extremely knowledgeable, experienced, & has a player's insights that many if not most others here seem to lack.

Fran Crimi reaps what she sows... as do others & some are jealous that they do not reap what she does. There are reasons why they do not.

Some are simply chauvinistic & some are in reality very little 'men' & I am not referring to height.

Best Wishes to You & All.

PS I too am not afraid & will complement whom ever I wish when I feel it is appropriate just as I will criticize when I think it is appropriate. Some members feel that AZB is THEIR house & that they can & should dictate what is said here & by whom.

Bumped for good purpose.

 

[DTL]

..................

 

[Mike Chandley]

Robin...lol
Guess I opened this can of worms.

 

[FranCrimi]

You probably know anatomy better than me, but I don't think you know a piston stroke & what happens with the shoulder.

I knew what CJ was talking about & I know what Fran means by what she's saying.

BUT...you made me go & check it out & I concur with both CJ & Ms. Crimi.

The shoulder is not stationary throughout.

Best Wishes to ALL.

Exactly, Rick. The best way I can describe it is that with a piston stroke, the shoulder is higher at address than it is at finish. They can call it whatever they want but I prefer to keep it simple. The shoulder position has dropped. If they want to complicate it and call it something other than a drop --- well, whatever makes them happy as long as we end at the same place --- with a shoulder position that is lower at the finish than at the start.

 

[ENGLISH!]

LOL.

Anyway, here are a couple of illustrations from a video Mike Page made.

I'm not picking sides on the pendulum vs piston argument. I'm just telling you what is happening with the shoulder in the context of our recent discussion.

In the first cartoon, on the lower right, it illustrates the "bad" elbow drop. Notice that the shoulder doesn't move.

In the second cartoon, Mike talks about the various problems beginners have with dropping their elbow........one being that the tip raises up and they hit higher on the CB than they realize ("i.e., pivoted about his shoulder")

View attachment 402590

View attachment 402591

The thing is that almost all of these 'tools' that are, I would think, well intended as a means of helping always seem to make some presumptions or assumptions that are not necessarily correct & indicative of the real life anatomical or bio-mechanical movements.

Then 'many' jump on those as 'fact'. When it may not be anything near the fact of real matters.

In Mr. Pages illustrations it is assumed or presumed that the shoulder is stationary.

Also the illustration is for a moment in time & does not really take into account the timing of matters.

Many of these visual aids are rather like statistics & can be made to indicate what ever the intent is & for what ever reason or motive. I am not using the word motive in a negative manner here. The motive can be very well intended.

'Many' well intended individuals have made mistakes & have been mistaken in there analysis & 'conclusions'.

There has been no where near enough study, testing, nor proper analysis for pool as there has been for golf, baseball, etc.

They dressed Bobby Jones in contrasting 1/2 black & 1/2 white & then filmed his swing so as to study it in slow motion.

Later when computers came along players have been hooked up with many many sensors to 'SEE' what the individual body parts did what & when in the swing.

The monetary incentive for such is just not there in Pool... other than for instructional fees or tape or DVD sales.

I do not think there will be the necessary & sufficient tests & study anytime soon & until then, each individual will have to keep their own individual thinking cap on if they do not want to be led astray by the mistakes of others, no matter how well intended those efforts by others may have been or are.

When one constantly hears the preachers of one religion they have nothing other of which to even think about or consider. When that happens it is rather easy for individuals to become 'brain washed' even if that was not the intention of the preachers.

Best Wishes to All.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Depending on how one is set for a piston type stroke, the elbow may lower during the take back of the cue & tip, then raise & then lower again,

In Mr. Page's 'cartoons' the elbow & shoulder are fixed.

What that is depicting is more of a pendulum plan with an elbow that is allowed or made to drop TOO early. That is certainly ONE of the problems with that contrived plan of operation.

When one focuses on moving the cue in a straight line, one actually gives no thought to controlling the elbow by keeping it still or 'making' it drop at the proper time. One SIMPLY allows what happens NATURALLY when the focus is on accomplishing the task at hand which is to move the cue in as straight a line as it's NATURAL use would indicate.

There is often the misleading statements made about less moving parts.

Well, if one must keep a part still while other parts associated with it are moving, that can be a rather daunting task of which to consider & focus on accomplishing. Try hitting a golf ball why keeping the legs & hips fixed in place or hitting a baseball or tennis ball with out taking that front foot movement & rotating the hips down below the swing & see how much quality success will be produced.

Controlling a body part to either move it or keep it still is the same in consideration & effort.

SIMPLY ignoring a body part when focusing on the task & SIMPLY allowing it to do what it will NATURALLY IS the more SIMPLE approach.

So, as some like to so often say. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Do what is NATURAL or do what is contrived. It's up to each individual to make their own determination where quality lies for them & n what direction they may want to go.

There seems to be some irony in there.

Best Wishes to ALL.

PS

con·trived
kənˈtrīvd/Submit
adjective
deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.
"the ending of the novel is too pat and contrived"
synonyms: forced, strained, studied, artificial, affected, put-on, phony, pretended, false, feigned, fake, manufactured, unnatural; More

 

[336Robin]

Exactly

Fortunately for me a friend of mine noticed it early on. I just had gotten used to choking up on the cue and was comfortable doing it so all of a sudden I was getting some elbow drop. It took me a few days to diagnose how to fix it and I'm pretty confident I have. I will work on it a few more times and then record a practice session to make sure I have and you're right. I don't think its necessary although not extremely detrimental but its more moving parts that I want to have to plan for. I'm just real glad I found out quickly after I developed it.

To answer the OP's question of "Is elbow drop after tip contact a bad thing?"

No. It's not.

I think a better question would be, "Is elbow drop [at any point in the stroke] ever a necessity?

No. It's not.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Exactly, Rick. The best way I can describe it is that with a piston stroke, the shoulder is higher at address than it is at finish. They can call it whatever they want but I prefer to keep it simple. The shoulder position has dropped. If they want to complicate it and call it something other than a drop --- well, whatever makes them happy as long as we end at the same place --- with a shoulder position that is lower at the finish than at the start.

Hi Fran,

As you know there are rather often ulterior motives to what some post & they do so under the guise of wanting to help through 'Knowledge' & 'Truth'.

Sometimes nothing can be farther from the Real Truth.

Sometimes such is intentional & sometimes it is just through no real understanding of the realities.

Delusions abound whether they were brought on by others or brought on or allowed to occur by one's self.

You have a very good head on your shoulders & from what I've seen through text only communication & example you also seem to have a very sincere & truthfully helping heart.

Best Wishes to You & Stay Well.

PS1 Please keep doing what you do that you do so well that is based in reality...

rather than based on conjecture, speculation, & ulterior motives.

PS2 I think you should have your own sub forum or better yet... your own web site or magazine article. How about a book written during the winter in New York City. :wink:

PS3 You & others should not get a free ride as some seem to want BUT... questions, disagreements, & requests for clarifications & discussions etc. should be done with at least common respect...at least until that is lost by one's own actions.

PS4 Why do you have that Blue Declaration in your signature area. Has there ever been an issue with others or is it just preventative as it certainly should most assuredly should be.

 

[336Robin]

You ratted yourself out!...lol

Well Mike you did! Its all your fault but so far no casualties but things are heating up a bit! lol

When I played Scott Lee last year he warned me that I didn't understand my stroke mechanics I guess he was right. I am playing a lot better since then but you spotted the elbow drop the other day. I'm pretty sure I have it fixed.

By the way to anyone that read my post.

Scott Lee is one heck of a nice guy who knows a lot about Pool Instruction and were I to go get some he, Fran Crimi and Tom Simpson would be on the list of people I would go to. I would likely also choose Lee Brett. This sort of thing is what Certified Instructors are for and my friend Mike has been to one, which is why I found out early that I had a developing issue. Im just glad I caught it quickly. I could tell in practice the other day that the quality of my cue tip application was much better and the cue ball was doing exactly what I wanted it to. Fundamental problems lead to more problems unless corrected.

You got to love Az!.....

Robin...lol
Guess I opened this can of worms.

 

[FranCrimi]

PS4 Why do you have that Blue Declaration in your signature area. Has there ever been an issue with others or is it just preventative as it certainly should most assuredly should be.

Thanks for your kind words, Rick. As for the blue declaration, I strongly feel that anyone who teaches kids should have a background check done on themselves and be prepared to show it to the parents at any time, just like I feel that all parents should ask for a background check on any prospective teacher for their kids. I know it's mandatory in schools but not in other areas of life.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Do what is NATURAL or do what is contrived. It's up to each individual to make their own determination where quality lies for them & n what direction they may want to go.

con·trived
kənˈtrīvd/Submit
adjective
deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.

What could be less contrived and more natural than the way a child chooses to do something?

Check out this video. The young girl shoots pretty good with a sidearm stroke that hinges entirely at the elbow. No gravity involved, either, so we can rule out that nonsensical argument of yours about pendulum strokes being strictly gravity driven. She's using just a pure contraction of the biceps - leading to a crisp closure of the elbow joint - and her cue action looks pretty freaking straight to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNAtK-Qhlqg

This little girl already shoots great with what seems to be her natural (uncontrived) stroke. I wonder if she even went anywhere with this game?