Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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Fran, you say it's not good to drop your elbow "to avoid the downward finish", but then you say you sometimes drop your elbow "to keep the cue level after impact". What's the difference? Am I misreading this?

pj
chgo

Yes, I think you are. When I drop my elbow, it's a true piston stroke that drops before impact. That was Robin who said he drops it after impact to keep it level. My suggestion was for him not to do that because it could result in poor stroke timing and double-stroking the shot. I think it's best to totally commit to one stroke or the other for any given shot. I use whatever stroke I feel works best for a particular shot but I commit entirely to that stroke.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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This may seem nit picky, but the elbow is doing all the dropping. The elbow drop is caused by the shoulder flexing ......hopefully by a fixed/stationary shoulder. If the shoulder drops, the upper body is falling closer to the table bed which is real bad for accuracy (most people raise up). The ball (head) of the humerus (upper arm bone) rotates within the joint space of the shoulder. The shoulder can flex/extend/abduct/adduct/internally rotate/externally rotate.......all from a fixed position.

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Your diagrams are of people standing erect. I'm not an expert in anatomy but I think it might be different when you're in your shooting stance. My shoulder definitely drops from it's raised position in my stance, along with my elbow.
 

ENGLISH!

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idiot savant
noun idiot sa·vant \ˈē-ˌdyō-sä-ˈväⁿ, or same as idiot and savant for respective sing and plural forms\
plural idiots savants \-ˌdyō-sä-ˈväⁿ(z)\ or idiot savants \-ˈväⁿ(z)\
Definition of IDIOT SAVANT

1
: a person affected with a mental disability (as autism or mental retardation) who exhibits exceptional skill or brilliance in some limited field (as mathematics or music) —called also savant
2
: a person who is highly knowledgeable about one subject but knows little about anything else
See idiot savant defined for English-language learners
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
A pendulum stroke can do all those things and more. You might not know that if your only extended experience is with a loopy stroke.

pj
chgo

Let me see you shoot a kill shot with a pendulum stroke.
I can't do it .
I have to go through the ball with an elbow drop.

OK I guess I'll bite on this.
Its been my experience that the pure pendulum stroke simply "Feels" lacking and therefore I don't have the confidence. Also don't have the will power to ingrain it. That difference in feel makes me believe I can't do certain things with it even though I know its not true. But like is said, If you think you can't or think you can you're going to be right either way.

I'm an elbow dropper I confess. It comes from early training from a US Champion 3C Player who professed an "arm stroke" for the game. To me when in stroke and all cylinders are in sync, that longer follow through "feels" like I have more control. When all is absolutely perfect it "feels" like dwell time is increased on the CB. Feeling right along with good results to me is important. Confidence is important.

Now all that being said and realizing none of it means a hill of beans other than the confidence thinky, when things aren't going right I fall back on basic fundamentals. Pull the bible off the shelf and go there to work out whatever unknown kinks obviously are present. After a while I'll naturally fall back to my own personality/style. I believe and what's kinda been said, when my elbow dropping style has problems it mostly timing - dropping before contact when I'm not planning for it. Sometimes I plan it but that's another story.
 

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Your diagrams are of people standing erect. I'm not an expert in anatomy but I think it might be different when you're in your shooting stance. My shoulder definitely drops from it's raised position in my stance, along with my elbow.

Hi Fran,

CJ started talking about the shoulder before he evacuated but as was sometimes the case the terms CJ used where not always readily understood by some. I think he used the term coil & uncoil when I'm rather sure he could have found a better term if he really tried & probably would have if he had not gotten fed up with the nonsense.

While it seems that those that use or have used a piston can relate to aspects of the fixed elbow method...

It seems that many that have only ever used a 'pendulum method' can't seem to relate to aspects of the piston.

Some confuse the pushing with pulling & don't understand timing.

Best 2 Ya & You Be & Stay Well.
Rick
 

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
A pendulum stroke can do all those things and more. You might not know that if your only extended experience is with a loopy stroke.

pj
chgo



OK I guess I'll bite on this.
Its been my experience that the pure pendulum stroke simply "Feels" lacking and therefore I don't have the confidence. Also don't have the will power to ingrain it. That difference in feel makes me believe I can't do certain things with it even though I know its not true. But like is said, If you think you can't or think you can you're going to be right either way.

I'm an elbow dropper I confess. It comes from early training from a US Champion 3C Player who professed an "arm stroke" for the game. To me when in stroke and all cylinders are in sync, that longer follow through "feels" like I have more control. When all is absolutely perfect it "feels" like dwell time is increased on the CB. Feeling right along with good results to me is important. Confidence is important.

Now all that being said and realizing none of it means a hill of beans other than the confidence thinky, when things aren't going right I fall back on basic fundamentals. Pull the bible off the shelf and go there to work out whatever unknown kinks obviously are present. After a while I'll naturally fall back to my own personality/style. I believe and what's kinda been said, when my elbow dropping style has problems it mostly timing - dropping before contact when I'm not planning for it. Sometimes I plan it but that's another story.

I'd rather trust my subconscious & my feel over my brain & physics education any day of the week.

Pool is not 'PLAYED' from out of a book nor in a sterile laboratory.

I just posted to Fran & used the word 'Timing' in saying that many don't seem to understand it.

When one has had good timing with their stroke & for some reason it goes a bit off, I think one can rather quickly play their way back into it, at least that is how it has been with me. My timing is almost always good but when something has gone a rye, I actually think of it as leprosy in my shoulder & then I swing my arm in a full circle a few times & forget about it & I'm back shooting well & with good timing.

Best 2 Ya.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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I've had some training in anatomy.........20 years experience as a Board Certified Physician Assistant. BS, Physician Assistant Studies, GWU.....summa cum laude. Masters, Physician Assistant Studies, UNMC.

It's the same motion as standing, just with the hips and elbow flexed (bent over in a pool shooting position).

If your shoulder is dropping, this is BAD. Likely it's not. Like I said, many players raise up on shots......this is bad, too. It would be very hard for the shoulder to drop (get closer to the bed of the table) due to the bridge hand being firmly against the table.

If your shoulder is dropping, a quick fix of that will likely improve your game a ball or two immediately. :)

Respectfully

DTL

ps The elbow and most of the upper arm (between the elbow and shoulder) drop with the piston stroke........and can after contact with a pendulum stroke, too. The shoulder should be fixed (stationary) whatever type stroke one uses. This ensures (or helps) that the tip returns to the predetermined target on the CB.


Yes, it's dropping from a raised position as I stated earlier. It's raised when I'm down low in my stance and it drops back down when I use the piston stroke. I don't feel like I'm doing it wrong. It feels just fine.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
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Joey...Why is that? There is no difficulty in shooting a kill shot, than any other shot with a pendulum stroke. Elbow drop is just a choice. There are no shots that require it...even power strokes. Guess we'll have to get together the next time I'm in S. CA and have a little "pow wow". LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Let me see you shoot a kill shot with a pendulum stroke.
I can't do it .
I have to go through the ball with an elbow drop.
 

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In a good golf swing, the lower body leads the upper body & the arms. It would be a significant mistake, IMO, to try to keep the legs & hips fixed & still when swinging a golf club.

As I said earlier, some do not seem to be able to understand the subtle differences between a piston stroke and a piston J stroke and a full pendulum stroke, or as Ms Crimi would rather call it, the rigid elbow stroke.

It seems that many times some talk about an aspect when talking about one of the strokes that does not necessarily apply to it just because that aspect applies to one or more of the other strokes.

How one connects to the cue is vital to the intended type of stroke & that connection can change during the stroke for both good & bad depending on whether or not the initial connection was suited to the intended stroke.

I've seen rather many attempting a pendulum stroke with a 'grip'/ connection to the cue that is NOT conducive for such...but they are making sure that that elbow does not move.

To me, there is too much focus on too much & not enough focus on where it should be & that is getting the cue to move 'straight' back & 'straight' into & 'straight' through or past the place where the ball was resting.

The implement is straight & it does not take too much effort to move it in a 'straight' line... IF... one does not erect contrived road blocks of either a conceptual or a physical nature.

Best Wishes to ALL.

PS Words & word games designed to trap one are not very nice & not a good thing for a forum that should be of a helping nature for all concerned. Polite clarifications however are always a good thing.
 
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ENGLISH!

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I know he's not a real Savant. I just use "pool savant" to describe him.

What he does on the pool table (esp '82 - '00) is God-Given talent...........or for the secular folks, his brain works different than most in terms of playing the game of pool. Thousands of people have practiced as much or longer and never get close to his speed.

Okay...

I just don't think that the word savant is really applicable because while he may have been given some God given penchant or talent he still needed that solid year of 16 hours a day 'everyday' on the table to get to be where he wanted to be.

He did not wake up one day & be a pool phenom.

Just because someone is extremely good at what they do does not make them a savant.

That is what nobcity seemed to believe.

John Barton believes just the opposite & thinks that anyone can be as good IF they put in the exact same effort.

Neither are true & there are exceptions to both.

Best Wishes to ALL.
 
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