Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...dropping your shoulder to avoid the downward finish can cause some problems.

...

I'm talking about shoulder drop with intent to keep the cue level after impact.
Fran, you say it's not good to drop your elbow "to avoid the downward finish", but then you say you sometimes drop your elbow "to keep the cue level after impact". What's the difference? Am I misreading this?

pj
chgo
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very interesting... just because Fran says it, it's the best post ever. I guess you failed to notice that she stated that she usually uses a pendulum stroke. You know, the one a few posts back you said was for beginners. Who is the only other person that would say that on here? Gee, couldn't be Rick, could it?

And what is your problem Mr instructor and PJ's fan???
Are you going to tell me when I should rep someone and when not ?
She described exactly what I wanted to say and it was a great post.

I would do the same thing with anybody in this forum. If I like something I will give my green. No matter who posts.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hunter Lombardo uses a pendulum stroke.....although the shot below is a soft shot, he does this on all shots except maybe a power draw.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7222414

Darren Appleton uses a pendulum stroke.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7222960

Alex Pagulayan uses a pendulum stroke.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7230899

Chris Melling uses a pendulum stroke. He takes some of the arc out of the back swing by pulling the cue more straight back which causes a slight elbow drop at the end of the back swing.
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7230923

Niels Feijen has a pendulum stroke......no video needed.

The quality of players coming out these days just keep getting better and better. The winning play is trending toward the player with the best fundamentals. Soon, players like Busty/Efren/Frost with their loopy/loosey goosey strokes, will be a thing of the past. In 20 years if you don't have a laser-like straight stroke with rock solid, near text book fundamentals (see snooker players below), you'll have no shot at winning major tournaments.

Snooker players:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7223965

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7224189

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7224242

Below is S. Frost. Notice on this quick front on shot the up/down motions of his grip hand/elbow..........this is all provided by flexion/extension of a fixed shoulder (the shoulder and head are stationary, the movement is from rotation of the head of the humerus in the joint space).

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7232339

Busty is similar but with a lot of added wrist action. Notice the up/down elbow during the stroke.....disappears on the last stroke.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7232479
Thank you for doing this work. FYI, I've added a quote of your post to the elbow drop resource page.

Regards,
Dave
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And what is your problem Mr instructor and PJ's fan???
Are you going to tell me when I should rep someone and when not ?
She described exactly what I wanted to say and it was a great post.

I would do the same thing with anybody in this forum. If I like something I will give my green. No matter who posts.

Try reading what I wrote again. You laugh at anyone using a pendulum stroke, call them beginners,ect. Then you laud what Fran stated, just because Fran said it. You didn't even realize what she said, and that she stated she uses a pendulum stroke. As soon as you get called on it, you suddenly change your tune. Exact same thing Rick is known for doing. Odds are, you are Rick.
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Try reading what I wrote again. You laugh at anyone using a pendulum stroke, call them beginners,ect. Then you laud what Fran stated, just because Fran said it. You didn't even realize what she said, and that she stated she uses a pendulum stroke. As soon as you get called on it, you suddenly change your tune. Exact same thing Rick is known for doing. Odds are, you are Rick.

Because Fran said it ???? I actually had a "fight" with Fran 15 months ago. You can search for my posts.

But the truth is that I don't have any problems with her or with anybody in this forum, and I think I am a good person.

It is you and your friends who have some real problems with other people in this forum. The truth is that you have a problem with yourselves.

Yes I believe the pendulum is for beginners. Are you going to kill me ????

PS: Do you really think you have a stroke ? Do you think you can spin the cue ball ?
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
The quality of players coming out these days just keep getting better and better. The winning play is trending toward the player with the best fundamentals. Soon, players like Busty/Efren/Frost with their loopy/loosey goosey strokes, will be a thing of the past. In 20 years if you don't have a laser-like straight stroke with rock solid, near text book fundamentals (see snooker players below), you'll have no shot at winning major tournaments.
"Textbook" fundamentals are certainly not required for all people to play at a high level, but solid fundamentals can certainly help most people. And over time, technique among the ranks of top players does seem to migrating more toward "best practices" fundamentals that result in better accuracy and consistency.

For example, many pool players in the past used to:

1.) have their head far above the cue with a very upright stance. Most top players now have their chins very close to the cue (because there are advantages to a low stance).

2.) use a closed bridge for most shots. Many top players now use an open bridge on many (if not most) shots (because there are advantages to using an open bridge).

3.) use high-deflection shafts. Most top players now use LD shafts (because there are advantages to using an LD shaft).

Etc!

Technique and equipment continues to improve over time as we learn more from past mistakes and modern instruction. I suspect the fairly new trend of having a fixed-upper-arm pendulum stroke into the ball will also continue to grow in popularity (especially with certain types of shots where cue-tip-contact-point accuracy is critical), because there are some disadvantages associated with dropping the elbow.

Good thread,
Dave
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because Fran said it ???? I actually had a "fight" with Fran 15 months ago. You can search for my posts.

But the truth is that I don't have any problems with her or with anybody in this forum, and I think I am a good person.

It is you and your friends who have some real problems with other people in this forum. The truth is that you have a problem with yourselves.

Yes I believe the pendulum is for beginners. Are you going to kill me ????

PS: Do you really think you have a stroke ? Do you think you can spin the cue ball ?

Yes, I do have a problem with some on here. Those like you that like to keep pool in the dark ages and knock just about any type of instruction on here and those that teach it.

You have shown by your posts that you know very, very little about the game, yet you somehow feel qualified to knock those that know tons more than you ever will. Just you asking me if I can spin the ball because I use a pendulum stroke showcases that you know nothing at all.

Looking back at your post history, you add nothing here, but do try and take away a lot from those that do add. That does not make you a good person at all.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
And what is your problem Mr instructor and PJ's fan???
Are you going to tell me when I should rep someone and when not ?
She described exactly what I wanted to say and it was a great post.

I would do the same thing with anybody in this forum. If I like something I will give my green. No matter who posts.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

Fran Crimi is one of, if not the best, instructor that posts here on AZB.
She is extremely knowledgeable, experienced, & has a player's insights that many if not most others here seem to lack.

Fran Crimi reaps what she sows... as do others & some are jealous that they do not reap what she does. There are reasons why they do not.

Some are simply chauvinistic & some are in reality very little 'men' & I am not referring to height.

Best Wishes to You & All.

PS I too am not afraid & will complement whom ever I wish when I feel it is appropriate just as I will criticize when I think it is appropriate. Some members feel that AZB is THEIR house & that they can & should dictate what is said here & by whom.
 
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ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, I do have a problem with some on here. Those like you that like to keep pool in the dark ages and knock just about any type of instruction on here and those that teach it.

You have shown by your posts that you know very, very little about the game, yet you somehow feel qualified to knock those that know tons more than you ever will. Just you asking me if I can spin the ball because I use a pendulum stroke showcases that you know nothing at all.

Looking back at your post history, you add nothing here, but do try and take away a lot from those that do add. That does not make you a good person at all.

Yeah, I know nothing at all....

At least I don't "poke" the cue ball.... And I don't call myself an instructor..... No student needs someone to teach him how to "poke" the cue ball.

You can keep attacking me.... And your friend PJ can do the same thing. It's your style.

PS: Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante kept the game in the dark ages, right ??? Damn, they should be young kids right now starting to play the game. They would come to you to teach them your perfect fundamentals and your "great poke stroke" !!!!!!! And they would buy an LD shaft in order to learn how to spin the ball !!!!!!!!!
Is that right ??????? :thumbup:
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I doubt that Rick can keep a post to less than novella length - he loves the sound of his own fingers too much...

pj <- just sayin'
chgo

Better than saying too little & not being clear & bringing things down to a tooth pulling contest.

I was taking Physics, & Advanced Maths like Calculus & Trigonometry in High School & never took typing.

So... it is rather an effort to two finger peck out what I post.

But... you should look in the mirror & see who it is that really likes the noise that their fingers make.

Best Wishes.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Yeah, I know nothing at all....

At least I don't "poke" the cue ball.... And I don't call myself an instructor..... No student needs someone to teach him how to "poke" the cue ball.

You can keep attacking me.... And your friend PJ can do the same thing. It's your style.

PS: Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante kept the game in the dark ages, right ??? Damn, they should be young kids right now starting to play the game. They would come to you to teach them your perfect fundamentals and your "great poke stroke" !!!!!!! And they would buy an LD shaft in order to learn how to spin the ball !!!!!!!!!
Is that right ??????? :thumbup:

He does not even know what you're talking about with your reference to knowing how to spin the ball.

To some it's you hit off center & the ball spins, most of the time for some, that's a 'bad' thing.

You take care & don't let ANYONE stop you from posting & saying whatever you want to say.

Best 2 You & All.
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He does not even know what you're talking about with your reference to knowing how to spin the ball.

To some it's you hit off center & the ball spins, most of the time for some, that's a 'bad' thing.

You take care & don't let ANYONE stop you from posting & saying whatever you want to say.

Best 2 You & All.

Thank you Rick !!!!!
 

ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The type of stroke your advocating, like the ones Busty/Earl/Efren/few others use, is something that can't be taught. To be able to hit the CB precisely where they want with these kinds of strokes takes an extreme amount of hand-eye coordination and a brain that is wired differently from us mere mortals.......essentially it's God-Given talent.

Earl is a functioning pool savant..........extraordinary skills minus the autistic component. These superhuman pool players usually pick up the game at a rapid pace and at a very early age.

One more pendulum stroke for ya............and pool savant.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7234465

Thanks again.

I agree, it can't be taught. But someone can put a lot of practice on it and develop it. I think it's the kind of stroke that allows you to play any kind of shot from drag to power follow or even break. And it develops a "good" feel in the forearm muscles - wrist - fingers which helps you to apply different "pressures" for different shots without "poking" the cue ball.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
When Earl was 16 he spent that 'entire' year on the table for '16 hours' per day 'everyday'.

He is not a savant. He learned it the only real way that it can 'really' be learned.

He did that after he became enamored with the game & 'knew' what he wanted to do & become.

I don't know, but I would guess that Efren & Busty were much the same way.

But... as I've said, the contrived 'full pendulum stroke' is easy to teach as a concept as it is a simple machine powered by gravity.

We human beings are not simple machines powered by gravity & do not resemble a pendulum in nearly any aspect.

Our arm with the cue more resembles a flail. I've posted a pic before. All that is required is to turn it over into an underhand motion.

The flail would be our forearm & the forearm in the pic would be our upper arm. The man is stepping so that is why the pictures move laterally. Imagine them without the step. That is more what happens as the relationship between the cue & the forearm change in the back stroke & the forward stroke.

Some will see this & understand & others will not & some will consider it & some will dismiss it with no real consideration.

Best Wishes to All.

 
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JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The type of stroke your advocating, like the ones Busty/Earl/Efren/few others use, is something that can't be taught. To be able to hit the CB precisely where they want with these kinds of strokes takes an extreme amount of hand-eye coordination and a brain that is wired differently from us mere mortals.......essentially it's God-Given talent.

Earl is a functioning pool savant..........extraordinary skills minus the autistic component. These superhuman pool players usually pick up the game at a rapid pace and at a very early age.

One more pendulum stroke for ya............and pool savant.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7234465
Efren's stroke is VASTLY exaggerated as a loopy stroke .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYDMMw5TtE
He has a perfect stroke imo. And can be taught just as easily as pendulum stroke . He does stand up a little before the final stroke.
But, his loose hold and stroke are all in harmony.

People still think Efren has that bicycle stroke he had decades ago. He's lost that after decades of playing on Simonis cloth .
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think it's the kind of stroke that allows you to play any kind of shot from drag to power follow or even break. And it develops a "good" feel in the forearm muscles - wrist - fingers which helps you to apply different "pressures" for different shots without "poking" the cue ball.
A pendulum stroke can do all those things and more. You might not know that if your only extended experience is with a loopy stroke.

pj
chgo
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A pendulum stroke can do all those things and more. You might not know that if your only extended experience is with a loopy stroke.

pj
chgo

Let me see you shoot a kill shot with a pendulum stroke.
I can't do it .
I have to go through the ball with an elbow drop.
 
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