Then you should make sure your "food for thought" is accurate and has some merit if you truly are considering others learning of the game. Misinformation helps no one.
Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?
- Thread starter 336Robin
- Start date
Then you should make sure your "food for thought" is accurate and has some merit if you truly are considering others learning of the game. Misinformation helps no one.
What if you shoot jacked-up one handed or behind the back ? 
I think smooth delivery is what really matters the most.
I think smooth delivery is what really matters the most.
It is the easiest to execute so long as your eyes are good .
All you are doing is bring the grip hand to the finish position on almost every shot ( maybe not so on very rare snip shots and kill shots ) .
Be it soft or hard.
When I first learned how to ski, I was taught the Snow Plow turn. Every ski instructor knows how to teach it, and it helps convey the basics. Same with the Pendulum stroke. It can be learned quickly, so the player can move on and focus on other aspects of the game.
The elbow is pinned in a Pendulum stroke, so when it drops it means you're engaging the shoulder (a socket joint). As others pointed out, if dropping the elbow before contact it can throw the cue off the point of contact. It's just an indicator, and has to be evaluated in context. Best is face to face with an instructor.
Some people may find a different stroke more suitable to them, and no longer use the Pendulum. Those other strokes often times takes longer to master, but some people feel the payoff is worth it. It doesn't mean the Pendulum is any less inferior. Just different strokes for different folks.
Nor does it mean that the full pendulum is 'superior' in any way other than easy to teach.
I've made my points why I feel it is an inferior method to choose due to the need for a perfect set up etc along with the tip action.
You & I & I & others will disagree.
As I said, I am merely putting out food for though & consideration for anyone in the decision stage of their journey.
I'm not saying that your stroke or anyone else's is inferior.
Each individual should make their own determinations BUT...
they can not do that when they are always only hearing from one pulpit.
Best Wishes.
To drop or not to drop.... It really doesn't matter. My tip never touched the cloth unless I'm playing with screw back... And quite a bit at that. My cue is always as level as I can get it and is usually less than an inch above the rail. I've never understood why instructors recommend having the tip rest on the cloth after. Cue through the ball level and your cue ball control will go up a level... If the elbow drops or if it doesnt... Who cares if you're hitting the white well?
I'd like to add, that how one connects to the cue is almost always neglected in these types of discussions.
How one connects to the cue must be conducive to the intended type of stroke to be implemented.
I very often see some, many, trying to use a pendulum type stroke because someone told them to keep their elbow fixed but the 'grip' they are using all but makes that impossible & still have a good stroke.
Also, it is very often said that so & so ONLY drops their elbow after contact.
That is virtually impossible for an outsider to say. I've sold video surveillance cameras & digital computerized recorders & almost all video can not be used to accurately determine if one's elbow drops before, at, during, or after contact unless it is very much well before or after. Only the shooter knows whether they are pulling the cue into contact or pushing the cue into contact & even some of them if not many may not even know.
In a piston J type stroke where the back stroke & initial forward stroke is 'exactly' like a pendulum but the 'finish' or follow through is like a piston stroke the optimal time for the elbow to start dropping is just before contact. It's all about contact & that is why the elbow drops unless one is making it do so for some odd reason. As I said, one should never give the elbow a thought. Timing. It's so very often about timing. BUT, one does not influence timing in any conscious manner. It is developed & acquired. It's a natural process.
It would not be conducive for the cue tip to start into a downward arc & then have it come up & then move 'straight' forward.
As I said... how one connects to the cue & the interaction thereof is very important for the intended type of stroke.
Again, I am only offering food for thought for those interested & might be at a point along their journey where they might be making some decisions.
Best Wishes to All.
PS My 8th grade Civics Teacher taught me a very valuable lesson. Always consider the source of information being given & also criticism & consider their motives & possible agendas for such. It can make one a bit cynical at times, but it has served me very very well many many many times.
How one connects to the cue must be conducive to the intended type of stroke to be implemented.
I very often see some, many, trying to use a pendulum type stroke because someone told them to keep their elbow fixed but the 'grip' they are using all but makes that impossible & still have a good stroke.
Also, it is very often said that so & so ONLY drops their elbow after contact.
That is virtually impossible for an outsider to say. I've sold video surveillance cameras & digital computerized recorders & almost all video can not be used to accurately determine if one's elbow drops before, at, during, or after contact unless it is very much well before or after. Only the shooter knows whether they are pulling the cue into contact or pushing the cue into contact & even some of them if not many may not even know.
In a piston J type stroke where the back stroke & initial forward stroke is 'exactly' like a pendulum but the 'finish' or follow through is like a piston stroke the optimal time for the elbow to start dropping is just before contact. It's all about contact & that is why the elbow drops unless one is making it do so for some odd reason. As I said, one should never give the elbow a thought. Timing. It's so very often about timing. BUT, one does not influence timing in any conscious manner. It is developed & acquired. It's a natural process.
It would not be conducive for the cue tip to start into a downward arc & then have it come up & then move 'straight' forward.
As I said... how one connects to the cue & the interaction thereof is very important for the intended type of stroke.
Again, I am only offering food for thought for those interested & might be at a point along their journey where they might be making some decisions.
Best Wishes to All.
PS My 8th grade Civics Teacher taught me a very valuable lesson. Always consider the source of information being given & also criticism & consider their motives & possible agendas for such. It can make one a bit cynical at times, but it has served me very very well many many many times.
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Very good post, Pidge.
Short & may leave some with questions, but very good..
IMHO - the whole problem is the people who actually believe the 'simpler' the delivery the better.
Pure hogwash - go watch an NBA All Star shoot some free throws.
Do they put the ball on their chest and then push their arms out in a straight line?
I haven't seen one yet.
Dale(qualified observer)
As usual when people imagine this, that exaggerates the tip's height variance near the CB. At the bottom of a typical pendulum swing the tip travels nearly straight horizontally (height variance +/- 1/32 inch) for a distance of 4 inches or so. I'm pretty sure anybody can set up within 2 inches of "perfect" every time.
pj
chgo
Ron Swanson
Banned
Ding, and a few of the other chinese lads, don't drop their elbow at all. Not sure why this is.
Ron Swanson
Banned
My tip often ends above the top of the cue ball. Why would that be?
All in the shoulder mate. Mine often ends up higher than I contacted the white on firm stun run through shots, when the white was fairly close to a cushion... Like a foot or two close. Because I only have the cue less than an inch over the cushion on these shots, as I drop my elbow on the follow through the cue hits the cushion a tad and forces the tip up. Also because I'm hitting a bit above centre on the white the tip deflected upwards. All this comes to a halt as the grip hits my chest midway through the tip being on the up.
If you watch a lot of the snooker lads they raise the butt of the cue when close.. Ish... To a cushion so they don't really end up with a higher tip at rest. They have impeccable cue actions though and can get away with raising the butt.
I've just had a thought... It's also because of the bridge you use. Open bridge allows the tip to raise, so most of the American pool players won't ever have this happen.
The more natural the better over a contrived method.
Whenever 'we' have thought that we can do better than 'Mother Nature' we have almost always been wrong.
Best Wishes.
Judd Trump is one of the only top level players... Like top 32 that doesn't drop his elbow. I can think of maybe 3 more who don't in the top 50.
There is a good reason for this. Because snooker players get as low as possible with the chin on the cue, if they pulled back with a fixed elbow the butt has no option to go up... By quite some way. This causes the head to bob up and down and creates a lot of body movement that just isn't possible for most to overcome to make them accurate enough to make it to the top. Every snooker player at some point gets told to keep perfectly still... To do this they have to keep the cue as level as possible on the pull back and delivery. Only way to do this is to allow the elbow to move.
Judd has quite a steep delivery into the white. He pulls back and then cues nice and level through the cue ball from a steeper angle than he addresses the white ball which allows him to settle and stay still at the back pause. For me, this is much harder to time and get right than having more moving body parts. He can't half spin the crap out of the white without dropping his elbow though.
You believe what you want.
Look at a sine curve & tell us all for how long is there a level 'POINT'.
The hand raises, then lowers, then raises again, just like the swing of pendulum at the bottom of a pendulum mechanism. The tip is doing the opposite.
So please explain what makes the bottom of a pendulum move in a straight line for 4 inches?
We've been through all this before in an old thread & the FACT is that it never moves in a straight line.
The variance is small, but it is there & in a game of millimeters one millimeter can make a lot of difference.
The set up AND the connection to the cue is vital & must be perfect or very near perfect... OR adjustments or compensations are 'needed' for the intended result.
If the cue & the tip are 'always' moving in a straight line there is no need for a 'perfect' set up & no adjustments or compensations are 'needed'.
Best Wishes.
Ron Swanson
Banned
Thanks. When near a cushion, ive also noticed the butt hits it. So, tip high, butt low.
Can't say it concerns me greatly lol.
Go look again & you will see that they do drop their elbow on most all power type shots.
Whether it is before, during, or after contact is a question that can not actually be answered reliably.
Part of the difference is the weight differential between the types of balls.
Some will say that all the power needed can be obtained with a true full pendulum stroke.
I don't doubt that. BUT... it's not a natural means & most don't like pounding themselves in the chest.
The bottom line is to each their own.
Best Wishes.
Ron Swanson
Banned
I watched the 17 year old play for the first time yesterday, and he didn't drop his elbow at all, i dont think. Same as ding.
Cultural cueing.
Trump is annoying. Actually, that's not fair. I think the evolution of cue sports has to favour the shot maker, rather than the player.