Is It Really The Pros That Are To Blame?

One of the neat things about the web is that it lets you see what goes on elsewhere.

I'm watching the Masters snooker tournament live from England on German Eurosport, produced by the BBC.

About 11 hours a day

Single table, venue holds 2000.

When I see snooker on Chinese stations the sponsors are:
Pepsi
Kentucky Fried
Pizza Hut
MacDonalds
Martel congac
Ballintines scotch
and a high end Chinese car company

Get the eyeballs and you get the advertising dollars and not just from companies selling billiard products.

Got to go - another match starting:grin:
 
Jimmy M. said:
Pool isn't a great spectator sport. Everyone likes to point fingers and say, "that's why pool is where it is", but even if those negative things didn't exist, pool still wouldn't be a great spectator sport. I am a pool player and I never watch pool on TV. Granted, it's more because of the circus-like feel of the televised matches, which recreational players aren't likely to pick up on (or even care about) but, again, regardless of how it's packaged, it isn't overly exciting to watch.

The truth is, if some corporate sponsor were looking to stick their money into a sport for advertisement purposes, they'd probably be looking to put it somewhere that would get their name out to a much larger audience than pool can provide. That's the reality that all of us who try to promote this game have to deal with. Hopefully it won't be like that some day but, for now, that's the way it is.
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i can't think of watching anything more boring than poker and yet there it is with mega corporate sponsorship on a bunch of different channels. so i am not buying into the "not a good spectator sport". and lest we forget golf and baseball - i'd rather watch cars rust. those are great things to do, but watch, not so much. and the numbers on at least baseball are starting to drop. if you don't have yankees v. redsox or one of those two in the series you don't have much. poker is huge, imo, due in large part to chris moneymaker winning the world series a few years ago. it gave internet players (and people who never looked at a pair of jacks) think they had a shot to do something special and then the numbers in the rooms took off and so did tv coverage.
 
JB Cases said:
Golf?
Spelling Bee?
Curling?
Shooting?
Archery?

These are all boring things which get put on TV. Sorry - all you championship golfers, spellers, curlers, shootists, and archers. I know your sport takes a lot of skills - just boring for me to watch.

QUOTE]

I'll have you know that Curling is quite exciting......
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The problem of pool are the governing bodies. I remember Pool having much TV time in the early to mid 90ies, even women matches were shown (Franziska Stark vs Allison Fisher iirc)
Somehow Pool missed the point where it was possible to make it big. Now in Germany Snooker has taken that spot. I pure english game is watched by millions and in our poolhalls you hardly find two snooker tables. Many rooms I know have 10 Pool and 1 Snooker. People try Snooker and fail miserably, but know everything the commentator told during the live coverage.
Pool is a variant of 8-Ball with shooting the 8 in the opposite pocket of the last ball, putting the white a buttend-width away from the rail etc...
Pool can be BIG if you look how Snooker made it's way in con-europe but deciders missed the chance.
And don't come with boring people like Souquet and the Asians. Look at Murphy, Ebdon, Davis... They are so popular for what ever reason.

The problem really is located in the government. In our premier league which is quite a good league with Feijen playing full time, Bustamante played a decade and a half ago, Ortmann plays full time, Hohmann did before he went to JAX and in the first year or two of his new life he came over to help against the good teams. It's not even worth a mention in local news though Fulda is/was one of the leading teams
Eurotour can be watched as a livestream on betandwin.com after you've paid 10? - not even the final comes on TV as a review - but every Main-Tour Snooker event is broadcasted live from the 1st round on.

German governing body plays around with the mode of play, we had 3 different modes in the last 3 seasons, one worse than the other, instead of at first trying to get 10min TV time for a short but good review. They are too stupid and too much of a "family" They even had the idea of playing straight pool with all 4 team members in rotation shot by shot :angry:
Before it was single match race to 150 - Feijen ran 150 and out once in the 1st inning. That's something BIG, not 8 people running around a table shooting balls in. From my memory the season highrun of that circus was 40 something - you can see that in 2nd or 3rd lowest league from time to time...

And not to talk about KT - IPT really hurt Pool, no matter how good the idea was - it was just the wrong person and the wrong company behind it. Naturalcures.com is even without knowing the company and KT a name where every alarmbell in my mind starts ringing "danger, fraud"

Imho we have to start with MONEY - like Strickland vs Reyes at Hongkong a decade ago. Just shorter. Like 1 hour of play, who ever has more racks won get's the cash. Or DCC Ringgame
 
Just wanted to throw a couple of things out there.

1.Golf- Tiger. Period. Look at the ratings when he is not playing. The ONLY REAL REASON for golf's success over the past 10 years has been one extraordinary athlete.

2.Poker- This has become the new American Lottery, and it's televised. If there was something else that the vast majority of Americans(and I am sure other nationalities) thought was luck-based, and paying out what, 50 million total, they would watch that, too. As much as anything it lets the average joe picture themselves in that competition.(For the record, I am not saying it is luck based, I am talking about the average person's initial perception)

3.To say that pool players don't want fame and fortune is a joke. Trust me, everybody wants to be on a Wheetie's box. And to think that Johnny can walk in ANY random pool hall and gamble is nothing short of ludicrous. The fact is right now, it is easier to be a roadplayer vs. being a low level touring pro. It is a reality, not a wish. I know PLENTY of pro's, and they would rather be answering questions about why the missed a ball, as opposed to staying in a roach motel to save the 5 or 10 bucks, because expenses kill you if you don't WIN every event you go to.
 
one reason golf does so well is because the sponsors who pay to put the show on tv know that they will be making their money back, most of the people who watch golf on tv actually play and can afford to spend large amounts of money on new clubs, bags and buicks. The average league player doesn't have that many options for new products anyway, a new cue a new case bam your done, pool needs to get over the feeling that they need only pool sponsors for their events, what about something like trying to sell the idea to Budweiser or someone to sponsor some of the bigger league events (there are no leagues anywhere near me and I don't see it on tv so they may already do that for all I know ). Aren't most of the league matches played in bars/pool rooms?
 
Exactly that is another point.
Look at Snooker, the players drink Highland Spring table water on every Main-Tour event.

Why shouldn't the Pool players drink Arrowhead or whatever

And when I read NASCAR on page 1 here - they were lucky that there was the CART/IRL war going on, but do you know what is another success guarantee?
Everybody can find his/her sponsor in the field. Like Klaus Graf said on German TV: "That's the car the housewives cheer on during monday morning re-live broadcast" (Talking about the "Tide" car)

All I see in Pool TV coverage is Sardo, Aramith, Simonis and Predator. Hell, I can't fit a 9ft table in my house and Predator has an awefully bad wood quality. Simonis and Aramith don't need much sponsoring, there's not much to buy anyway apart from Z9 or Milliken.

Why don't they ask some "every day needs" companies? You see Kellogg's, Home Depot, Lowes, AMP, Aflac, Tide, Rubbermaid, hell you could even sticker Tupperware on a Cup car
Over here we drink a lot of "real" coffee when playing pool, why not ask Lavazza or Segafredo
 
JB Cases said:
Who did you sell the Cuetec to? We sell A LOT of Cuetecs and the reason is because Cuetec is on TV all the time as Allison Fisher is on TV playing with hers all the time and also because Cuetec sponsors half the tournaments that are on TV.

Maybe the people who are buying and playing with Cuetecs aren't even league players (yet).

We sell a LOT of Cuetecs to people who call in (or email) and say that they are looking for a cue for a gift for someone else and they want that brand because they saw it on TV.

And who plays with Cuetec?

Mark Tad. Want to play him? Allison - Want to play her?

The fact is that Cuetec has seen their investment into sponsorship pay off - at least to the point that they have kept it up for 15 years.

The rest of the billiard industry either doesn't have the budget or the balls to do that sort of advertising.

Personally, if I were a millionaire (talking hundreds of millions, cuz a mil ain't worth what it used to be) then I simply buy pool. That's right I would put up a pro-tour and get all the pros under contract and then once I had that I would shape it how I wanted it. This sport is ripe for someone to come in and take it over from top to bottom.

Neither the BCA nor the Pros themselves are doing anything to protect or promote the game so anyone with the right amount of money can own themselves a whole sport and it would take a lot less than buying any other sports.

I wouldn't do it like our old friend KT and try to put a spit shine on it and flip it - no I'd be in it for the long haul and first try to build something solid and working that I could then interests in. I'd do my own production or bring AccuStats in as a partner and let them do all the production.

I would "invite" the BCA. WPA, APA, BCA, VNEA, and the rest of the alphabet to play along by giving up a tiny percentage of their membership dues in order to set up an amateur-to-the-pros pathway that is consistent. If they didn't want to play along which I expect that they wouldn't then I would simply set up my own leagues and fund it myself for a few years until I had all the players.

My marketing would at first consist of recruiting paid "evangelists" to canvas every place in the United States with a pool table and get them to sign up with Church of the Good Pool Hustler.

I'd hire Mark Griffin to run it all and Robin Adair and Randy Goetlicher :-) to run the tournaments.

Then again, as momma used to say, "if wishes were horses then beggars would ride."
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I went to bed and didnt see your reply last night ..

Soooo, calm down there Zeus, Cuetech has put lots of cash into the game and deserves to sell cues because of that. If they sell enough cues to keep putting money out thats great I just dont see anybody playing with their cues, excuse me.

As far as playing your named players, I've met Allison many times and would play her right now, all day, she's great to be around. Mark Tad was his name dont know him but if you want to fly him to Seattle we can play all day also, unless hes a d*ck, I dont handle people like that with very much grace, I was raised by wild dogs.. Oh I'm sorry you probably ment play them for money, not just for the love of the game ( I play because its the only game I've ever played that I cant play worth a sh*t). Maybe someday I'll get away from my Kids, Bis., and Old number 7 ( yea thats the girlfriend) long enough, to play enough, so I dont play like a girl =)

And jump right on that pro tour thing. Dump all your cash into it, I heard its a BIG money maker...
 
Mowem down said:
I went to bed and didnt see your reply last night ..

Soooo, calm down there Zeus, Cuetech has put lots of cash into the game and deserves to sell cues because of that. If they sell enough cues to keep putting money out thats great I just dont see anybody playing with their cues, excuse me.

As far as playing your named players, I've met Allison many times and would play her right now, all day, she's great to be around. Mark Tad was his name dont know him but if you want to fly him to Seattle we can play all day also, unless hes a d*ck, I dont handle people like that with very much grace, I was raised by wild dogs.. Oh I'm sorry you probably ment play them for money, not just for the love of the game ( I play because its the only game I've ever played that I cant play worth a sh*t). Maybe someday I'll get away from my Kids, Bis., and Old number 7 ( yea thats the girlfriend) long enough, to play enough, so I dont play like a girl =)

And jump right on that pro tour thing. Dump all your cash into it, I heard its a BIG money maker...
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Well I didn't mean for it to be personally directed at you, whoever you are. My name is John Barton and I have been in this business for more than 20 years.

You made some statements and I made some counterpoints - those being that a lot of people do in fact buy Cuetecs - whether they or anyone else "plays" with them is largely unknown as no one has done a study yet to see what happens when Cuetecs are released into the wild.

I guess you haven't been around long enough to know what most of us already know about the "pro tour thing" - a lot of us have already been a part of the that pro tour thing, and that one and that one too.

But yeah, like I said, IF I had the money then I would do it the way I outlined and I would make money at it. Because pool has the talent, it has the characters, it has the stories and the history. What is does not have is consistency. It is too fragmented with an alphabet soup of orgs each claiming to be the "governing body" ( I hate that term) of pool - each with different rules. Forget about billiards, in pool they compete professionally in four or five different games and if that's not enough they make up more like 7 ball, Skins, Poker Pool, Trick Shot Magic, and Celebrity Billiards.

So sorry that you took it personally, it wasn't meant to be personally directed at you. However most of us who have been in the industry for a long time are pretty jaded about the prospect of any kind of cohesion for a consistent pro tour.
 
Better commentary please, and in HDTV

I've posted about this before and may initiate a separate thread again, but why in the world can't we get pool in HDTV? Recognizing the balls on the table is key to understanding the game.

Then let's get some better announcers. Alan Hopkins and Mitch Lawrence are just too nice. They'll never call a terrible shot a terrible shot, even when it's obvious

Steal Norman Chad from the poker shows and give him a shot. But by all means, keep Ewa Lawrence, whose beauty and brains are unmatched.

Finally, encourage the players to woof it up and bring down the cash and put it in front of them -- just as in poker.
 
Jimmy M. said:
Pool isn't a great spectator sport. Everyone likes to point fingers and say, "that's why pool is where it is", but even if those negative things didn't exist, pool still wouldn't be a great spectator sport. I am a pool player and I never watch pool on TV. Granted, it's more because of the circus-like feel of the televised matches, which recreational players aren't likely to pick up on (or even care about) but, again, regardless of how it's packaged, it isn't overly exciting to watch.

The truth is, if some corporate sponsor were looking to stick their money into a sport for advertisement purposes, they'd probably be looking to put it somewhere that would get their name out to a much larger audience than pool can provide. That's the reality that all of us who try to promote this game have to deal with. Hopefully it won't be like that some day but, for now, that's the way it is.
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Hi Jimmy,

Interesting that in the 90's snooker on UK tv was the most watched televised sport, even more than soccer if can believe that.:eek:

The same successful promoter of that era, Barry Hearn, came to the USA and tried to duplicate that with the US masses.

He concluded that not only could he not do it with snooker, he didn't think it possible with "pool" games either.

It would be interesting to get his opinion.

Go figure.

Thanks.

Bernie
 
Pool cannot compete with other sports

There is just too much competition for the HIGH Advertising dollars for pool to become successful in the USA.

Europe, Asia and the rest of the world only has Soccer and Snooker to compete with Pool.

The USA has all the major sports to compete for air time, ad dollars and prestige.

You have to admit, when the Yankees get a new 3 Billion dollar stadium, how does pool compete with that?

Pool can't even hold a $3,000,000 without horrendous consequences.
(IPT demise)

Pool cannot compete with Major league sports. No way, No how, nada.. At least not in its present form.

Pool has got to change..or it will only continue to be 'status quo'
 
muttley76 said:
Just wanted to throw a couple of things out there.

1.Golf- Tiger. Period. Look at the ratings when he is not playing. The ONLY REAL REASON for golf's success over the past 10 years has been one extraordinary athlete.

2.Poker- This has become the new American Lottery, and it's televised. If there was something else that the vast majority of Americans(and I am sure other nationalities) thought was luck-based, and paying out what, 50 million total, they would watch that, too. As much as anything it lets the average joe picture themselves in that competition.(For the record, I am not saying it is luck based, I am talking about the average person's initial perception)

3.To say that pool players don't want fame and fortune is a joke. Trust me, everybody wants to be on a Wheetie's box. And to think that Johnny can walk in ANY random pool hall and gamble is nothing short of ludicrous. The fact is right now, it is easier to be a roadplayer vs. being a low level touring pro. It is a reality, not a wish. I know PLENTY of pro's, and they would rather be answering questions about why the missed a ball, as opposed to staying in a roach motel to save the 5 or 10 bucks, because expenses kill you if you don't WIN every event you go to.
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Golf was still huge on t.v. before Tiger came along.He just made it massive.When Tiger is not playing the rating sure drop BUT still have millions of viewers.
Tiger is not "the only reason" for golfs sucess in the last 10 years.Golf would do just fine without Tiger.
But it sure is fun watching the guy.
 
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jimmy-leggs said:
Golf was still huge on t.v. before Tiger came along.He just made it massive.When Tiger is not playing the rating sure drop BUT still have millions of viewers.
Tiger is not "the only reason" for golfs sucess in the last 10 years.Golf would do just fine without Tiger.
But it sure is fun watching the guy.
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I think that your idea of huge is different from most. Ask any pro if Tiger has DOUBLED prize money or viewers. Golf was doing great like hockey was doing great. It is boring to watch(this coming from somebody who plays every day they possibly can), but Tiger isn't. And golf might still do fine without Tiger, but that is mainly due to the influx of fans he has attracted. The fact is, golf has been benefited by two huge stars in Palmer and Tiger. Nicklaus was a great player, better than Arnie, but didn't come close to bringing in the fans like the others. To act like golf would be half(or more likely a quarter) as popular would be stretching the truth quite a bit, imo.
 
I've been listening to this debate for over 25 years and have watched the different pro organizations form and collapse; each one pinning their hopes on some savior or money man (ie. Mackey, Trudeau etc.). IMO, you have a group of people who make their living by conning each other and preying upon one another, always looking for a way to exploit one another or the system. Then we expect these same people to turn around and collaborate and trust one another in order to form a "professional" organization? Come on! It ain't gonna happen. I had to laugh when everyone in the business began to pin their hopes on a huge infomercial conman and then they got burned. Big surprise there! Con a con. I know this sounds cynical but it's based on watching these people and events for decades. Until people can look beyond their own immediate needs, make personal sacrifices, and be willing to trust and compromise, you'll never see a long lasting men's organization. The women apparently don't have this same mindset and that's why their tour endures. Watch how they encourage and support one another at the tournaments. A totally different attitude. THey are willing to function as a group and not merely self serving individuals.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
There is just too much competition for the HIGH Advertising dollars for pool to become successful in the USA.
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I think that if we are about to do something the worst attitude for the beginning is the one above. What has worked for most of the rich and famous people and/or companies is exactly the opposite of that, i.e. "WE can do it, WE WILL be better, and with all respect to the opponents, hell, we'll make them fall to us!" To be more exact: The HIGH Advertising dollars need diversity. Over and over again. In case they did not there wouldn't be one single new TV programme on because no one would pay for the ads. All the marketing and PR members of the big companies are spending 24 hours out of a day by nothing else but looking for the BEST, newest and hence the most effective place to put the shareholders money into. They ARE looking for new places, if they did not, then they could lean back and there wouldn't be ANY need for those guys, the only thing Nike, Kellogg's, Adidas, Buick, etc.etc. would have to do is lean back and put their money and their ads to the very same place every damn year.

And believe me they don't give a damn if their new ad is placed on the backs of big boobed girls fighting with each other all night long or on an elegant pool player's shirt as long as the environment of the show is appropriate for them and it pays off.

Tom In Cincy said:
Europe, Asia and the rest of the world only has Soccer and Snooker to compete with Pool.
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That means only that you believe that outside the USA they only know three sports, Soccer, Snooker and Pool.

Meanwhile pool has to compete with not only Soccer, Snooker but every other sport on this planet. If we want to do something WELL, especially the BEST, we have to win everything, don't we? I personally never gave a damn about how strong my opponents are, the only thing I knew is that I wanted to be BETTER. And I'll stick with that throughout my entire life.

Tom In Cincy said:
Pool has got to change..or it will only continue to be 'status quo'
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I firmly believe that you are very right about that one. From my point of view pool needs more action, more money, more woofing and aggressive playing with high stakes = just like many have said here before.
 
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JimS said:
Show the gambling! Show the cash being exchanged! Show the woofing! Have the announcers explain shots by showing where to hit the cue ball to get it to spin a certain way! Talk it up! Have an edge to the voice so that it will create excitement. Build the suspense! Go back and forth from face to face and talk about how important it is to get the cb to a certain area and how it's done. Make a show out of it like poker has done. Mike what's his name and Vince Van Patten made poker go (imo) turn Billy and Grady loose and let the language loose (well... loosen it up anyway). Show the backers and the wad of cash... especially the cash.. big freakin wads of cash... tons of cash being passed to the winner of each game/set. Show piles of cash on the light. It doesn't even have to be real cash. Make a SHOW.

Don't make it a gentlemans game. Make it rough and tough and show the cash! Dress them in jeans and T shirts and backwards hats and use to bleeped out language and some nose to nose woofing. Screw the nice stuff. Nobody buys "nice".. they buy exciting stuff. They buy edge-gy... they buy scarey. Put some tush-hogs around the place. Show a buldge under the coat that might be a piece and talk about whether so and so is carrying. Talk about the gambling and how much is down on this shot. Bet on every shot!! Tons of cash being exchanged on tough shots. Exaggerate the nasty, the rough, the tough, the danger. Do a reality show about a hustler moving across the country making and losing the CASH! Exaggerate the danger!! Do a SHOW for pete's sake. Do anything but STOP trying to make pool seem legitimate and nice. It AIN'T either so capitolize on the illegitimate and exaggerate the nasty. That will get people to where they want to learn how to make the shots they see being made and make people want to make a score! Talk like Fatty did about the CASH. Talk about how so and so is only 20 years old and learned to be a great player by doing this and that and show how he makes shots and show him with the CASH and people will want to get a cue like his and a case like Fast Eddies, and they'll spend their CASH and they'll flock to the ph so they can learn how to make the SCORE. Have sexy girls all over the place. Some like Eva.. beautiful and classy, some not so classy. Have them hanging on the pros in the crowd. Produce a freakin show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it up!! PRODUCE it.

CREATE heros and CREATE villans. Show a Landon being sharked by a mean ole EARL. Do a little story about their background and make them into personalities that people will know. All of you knew instantly who I meant when I said Landon and Earl.... make the world know!! Do it so people talk around the proverbial water cooler at work about how mean that mean ole Earl was to that nice kid. Then have Earl lose to the sweet kid. Or not! Have Earl shark and then beat the kid out of the CASH. Build it up. Talk about Keith at 15 with the CASH in his pocket asking a teacher to hold it for him. Have Keith and Buddy and Grady doing commercials about learning how to play and taking lessons. Show the kids learning and progressing.
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I think you're on to something Jim. The things that make pool exciting to us the people who have played it for eons are probably the things sponsors should be accenting. Cash games, woofing, etc. God knows we have enough characters involved in the game, let's start introducing them to the masses.
 
I think that this is the only logical progression of the game at this point. The only part of pool that is really romanticized by the general populous is the gun-slinging gambler. Look at the movies that created all the buzz. They weren't about tournament play. And honestly, most of us are fairly bored with tourneys. I think that TAR, and that type of pool, is about the only exciting thing going. An expansion of that aspect would be nice.
 
There is more money in a 30 second tv commercial at this years Super Bowl than in the entire 2008 pool tournament prize funds

$2.5 Million for 30 seconds.

The present state of affairs of the USA pocket billiards doesn't even approach the $500,000 mark.

Status Quo won't get pocket billiards to the next level. Something has to change.

Get rid of the Current tournament structure. All the other major sports are built upon a season and standings. Why can't pool do the same?

Pool has to be Standardized.

The only constant in today's pool world in the USA is that there isn't enough money for more than a few players to make a living.
 
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