Is poker doing in the pool business? Another closing.

[JAM]

The poker craze is and has been taking off because anyone can win...It's sad but true.

LastTwo, not too long ago, Young Gun Ian Costello visited California and is still out there, last I heard. I was told he got a paying job, i.e., employment, as a "regular player" in a poker room. These poker houses pay "regular players" $12 an hour to sit at a table, I assume, in an effort to fill up the card room. The "regular player," though must gamble with his own dough.

For the broke-dog pool player down on his luck AND in need of funds, it seems like the ideal job.

For the gambling-addicted pool player, it looks like a dead-end street. Visions of a gerbil vigorously running an endless circle come to mind, or to put it better, always having one tire in the sand, NEVER getting ahead.

Currently, there are world champion-caliber pool players who suffer from the gambling addiction. Because of this disease, they don't have very much to show in the way of their accomplishments. Many times some of these gambling-addicted pool players win monies in tournaments held in places like Vegas and Reno and they're broke before they leave town.

Within moderation, gambling can be fun and exciting, but when out of control, a struggling pool player can look forward to a lifestyle of gloom and doom, always uncertain and no stability. Which is why I ain't quitting my day-time job any time soon!

JAM

 

[catscradle]

..., and most with an average intelligence can become proficient, if they so desire...
JAM

IMO, most with an average intellegence can think they've become proficient. By "proficient" I mean making money not losing it.

 

[JAM]

IMO, most with an average intellegence can think they've become proficient. By "proficient" I mean making money not losing it.

Or, said another way, in the words of Kenny Rogers, "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, KNOW WHEN TO WALK AWAY...."

The walking-away part enters into the proficiency of a good gambler. Many, however, forget that line when they're in the heat of the battle, stuffing their pockets and betting higher and higher until they go empty.

When a person sacrifices their stability in life for the high of gambling, they don't have much of a happy future in store for them down the road. They are trapped in a disease which will generate nothing but a pit of despair, loss of family and loved ones, and economical hardships.

JAM

 

[Celtic]

I would say that the increase in popularity of poker has a positive affect on pool. They are similar games in alot of ways but I dont see the people who take to one as having to make a choice of only one, they can play and support both. The good thing is people who take interest in poker are possible to take interest in pool as well. It is a very similar scene and the poker fad could be used by shrewd marketers to garner more fans for pool. Poker brings money into the gambling sector of society, some of that money will filter into pool, most may stay in poker but I bet alot more money comes into pool via poker then vise versa.

 

[catscradle]

That is great for the California billiard room proprietors that the smoking bans have helped business. Not wanting to start a smoking debate, I just inserted the thought of smoking bans being a deterrent to go to pool rooms on the East Coast, especially during the cold and bitter winter seasons.

In Upstate New York, as an example, I know of five pool rooms which have closed their doors and attribute it to the statewide smoking ban. Here in the D.C. area, two rooms have closed up, and another will close as soon as their lease runs out early next year.

I am a smoker, and personally, I don't mind the no-smoking establishments. It has hurt business with the people I have spoken to, not only pool room, but bars and places where people congregate to recreate. It may be an East Coast thing, but it is a reality in some parts.

Camel Cigarettes sponsored the Viriginia State 9-Ball Championship in Richmond which was won by Chris Laur earlier this year. If the smoking ban does go nationwide, I'll bet Virginia, the tobacco State, will be the last one on the ban-wagon (pun intended)!

JAM

You may have glossed over a key point in Straight Shooters statement. That is that after a while the number of non-smokers frequenting his establishment increase significantly. That would make moot the point about the bitter winters (and having lived in New England my whole life I don't really think they're all that bitter anymore). As a non-smoker I have put up with the miserable environmental conditions in pool rooms for many years because I love pool. I'm not quite sure I agree with smoking-bans because of my particular libertarian stance, but, that said, I think it is a pretty miserable excuse by supposed lovers of pool to cop out because they have to go outside to smoke. Incidentally, if owners had just don't a decent job of installing and maintaining air filtration systems it may not have come to smoking bans.
Now many pool rooms may be on such a tight budget that they can't wait out a drought until the new clientele starts coming in, or maybe the same phenomenon may not happen in the Northeast, but I'd be interested in your opinion of his statement about his smoking clientele being replaced with non-smoking clientele.

 

[onepocketchump]

Poker is the ONLY way that a person can enter a $25 tournament and have a legitiamte shot at over a million dollars. It was featured on NPR the other day with Annie Duke and the guy who founded the Poker Tour. Annie, a VERY smart and articulate person, made several points that defined WHY tournament poker is so popular. The biggest is the size of the prizes relative to the amount of the entry money. The other is the fact that there is the mystery to it. In Annie's words Poker is the only heads up game where you are always dealing with an element of the unknown. In pool you HAVE to be able to make the ball if the shot is there. You aren't going to get in the finals and win because you get better rolls (cards).

In pool you win because of the talent AND the rolls. In Poker, you win despite the rolls. And there is No physical skill required in poker other than the ability to hold your cards, count your chips and stay awake.

Plus, poker requires nothing more than $10 card tables and $1 cards, anything can be used as chips. Poker is more mainstream than pool can or will ever be.

It is not a fad, just coming of age in the television world. Still, pool will survive. Pool has the allure of making balls dissappear that trancends other sports. Maybe it will get more pure. A lot of people will tire of poker and seek something more satsifying, something true. No matter how much you lie and hustle at pool there always comes a time when you are staring down the nine foot shot straight in on the nine for the dough and that's the test that insures pool's survival.

John

 

[nfty9er]

Thanks

You may have glossed over a key point in Straight Shooters statement. That is that after a while the number of non-smokers frequenting his establishment increase significantly. That would make moot the point about the bitter winters (and having lived in New England my whole life I don't really think they're all that bitter anymore). As a non-smoker I have put up with the miserable environmental conditions in pool rooms for many years because I love pool. I'm not quite sure I agree with smoking-bans because of my particular libertarian stance, but, that said, I think it is a pretty miserable excuse by supposed lovers of pool to cop out because they have to go outside to smoke. Incidentally, if owners had just don't a decent job of installing and maintaining air filtration systems it may not have come to smoking bans.
Now many pool rooms may be on such a tight budget that they can't wait out a drought until the new clientele starts coming in, or maybe the same phenomenon may not happen in the Northeast, but I'd be interested in your opinion of his statement about his smoking clientele being replaced with non-smoking clientele.

I was going to reply with your exact point but you did it so exquisitely I will pass. I would like to say California winter weather is as miserable to us as yours is to you and we can suffer outside just as much. It is what your body gets used to.

 

[JAM]

...but I'd be interested in your opinion of his statement about his smoking clientele being replaced with non-smoking clientele.

My opinion is that of a smoker and will differ from a non-smoker.

I can only state what I have witnessed and heard speaking with others regarding the smoking ban. Here in Montgomery County, Maryland, the smoking ban has been in force for almost a year. Two longtime pool rooms are closing their doors as soon as their lease expires. A newly opened billiard parlor is now bankrupt. Their business diminished rapidly when the smoking ban became a reality.

Several long-established pool rooms in Upstate New York are suffering. Two business owners in Syracuse will attest to this. One said his business has dropped 70 percent due to many of the regulars not patronizing his establishment. I don't know how long the smoking ban has been in force in New York State.

I am a smoker and do not mind smoking out of the presence of a non-smoker. I call that courtesy and well remember how I felt about it when I was a non-smoker. However, in the cold and bitter winter months with howling winds making it feel as if it were 30 degrees below zero, it is difficult to smoke outdoors, the only available place for smokers to satisfy their addiction.

I sure don't want to open up a can of worms about the pros and cons of smoking in pool rooms in a thread related to poker. Much has been written about this topic in the past. I can relay the opinions I have heard from business owners suffering economic hardships. To date, the non-smokers have not filled the empty seats left in the pool rooms in Montgomery County.

Fortunately, there are no poker rooms in my area! If it ever happens, the buzzards () will be flying full circle for sure!

JAM

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Poker and Pool, (and smoking)

I have noticed that most gamblers that are also pool players are taking to the card rooms and also the internet poker tournaments.

The smoking bans have had an impact on a lot of room owners that have had relied on smokers for their business.

I don't understand why the owners won't invest in an outside smoking area that is schielded from the weather and have heaters (ala winter golf driving ranges) to provide a comfortable place for the regular smokers. It would make good business sense IMO, but I guess the response from the owners would be the CO$T.

My guess is that 80-90% of the pool population does not gamble. If you take the total estimated weekly pool players (all league and tournament players) it would account for about 250,000 players), this would still mean that around 25,000 to 50,000 place a wager on the outcome of a match or partake in some sort of gaming venue (internet or casino)

Pool halls would account for only a third of the choices. (internet, casino or pool hall gambling). I would also assume that this is a small part of the pool room owners income.

Regular customers are the 'bread and butter' in the pool hall business and it is a wise pool room owner that protects their interests for these regulars.

 

[catscradle]

... However, in the cold and bitter winter months with howling winds making it feel as if it were 30 degrees below zero, it is difficult to smoke outdoors, the only available place for smokers to satisfy their addiction.
...JAM

Two places in MA I frequent have come up with viable solutions to this. The first, Country Club, USA in Chelmsford, MA, has an "outdoor" patio, but it is fully enclosed with wind screens and has heaters of a sort apparently. I haven't gone out there because I don't want to be around the smoke, but it sounds like it would work okay. The other place is Maxamillians in Tyngsboro, MA and it was even more ingenious, they turned a portion of the bar area into a fully enclosed cigar shop with a direct entrance from the pool room. Evidently, the law allows smoking in cigar shops, I haven't seen anybody behind the counter in there nor I have I seen any tobacco product for sale in there, but it seems to satisfy the law.

 

[JAM]

Two places in MA I frequent have come up with viable solutions to this. The first, Country Club, USA in Chelmsford, MA, has an "outdoor" patio, but it is fully enclosed with wind screens and has heaters of a sort apparently....

Here in my neck of the woods, the business owners provide outdoor ashtrays, which don't do much in the way of accommodation to smokers standing outside in the frigid cold with the freezing winds.

I do miss the Country Club USA in Chelmsford. They sure did have many, many good Joss tournaments there, ambrosial food, full bar, and excellent playing equipment. Lots of fond memories from the Country Club USA.

JAM

 

[kokopuffs]

I too am a nonsmoker and upon leaving a smoke-filled pool room my lungs are wheezing and as to my clothing, I can almost literally peel a layer of nicotine aroma from it. Yeeeechhh.

 

[cut shot]

Yep Kokopuffs.. I understand your felines exactly! I have a nice warm home for you with only the best Kibbles n Bits and the most expensive cat litter I can buy! I will feed you the finest sardines everyday if your cat paws can teach me to shoot better.. hehe. I could'nt resist.. please forgive me!

I too am a nonsmoker and upon leaving a smoke-filled pool room my lungs are wheezing and as to my clothing, I can almost literally peel a layer of nicotine aroma from it. Yeeeechhh.

 

[Cardinal_Syn]

I hate to say this but, booze, food and smoking seem to rule the pool rooms in my area.. "Missouri". Leaque teams appear to take up the slack. This is JMO.

they banned smoking in toronto in casino's pool halls etc pretty much everywhere, i think poker just became really popular from all the tv spot and bigger prize. the pool players play poker now in the pool hall.

 

[Hooked]

Smoking Bans are a thing of genious. They are catching on here in the Phoenix area /cheer

I used to play in 2 or 3 tournaments a week for two straight years in a non-smoking pool hall. I loved it! Then I moved to Phoenix and played in 1 tournament and could not handle the smoke. That was 5 years ago and I have not played in one since

After selling my home table, I have been going to a local pool hall that has smoking but it is the nicest and the closest so I tollerate the smoke. I smell so bad when I get out of there /yuck My wife makes me keep my cue case out of the house because it stinks so bad...


Anyways, I would rather you smokers freeze than me having to smell like you. Don't get me wrong, I can get on board with smoking 100% but I will never undertand why people smoke tobaco. I mean, if you are going to smoke, there are much better combustable organics to inhale


On topic - I have seen two Poker tournaments in the pool hall I go to in the last week or two. They had big turnouts too. I am afraid if it catches on, some pool tables will be replaced with card tables. From the looks of it, there was more drinking, eating, and players for poker than the pool tournaments.

 

[jjinfla]

Maybe people are not playing pool because they can't afford it. Especially if they smoke and have to pay $5 a pack. And drinks and food in the pool room are not cheap either. Nor is gas to get there.

And how can poker be taking away pool players? Poker is nothing new. It's just a new game.

More than likely the pool rooms close because the owners are tired of the long hours (12 hours a day, 7 days a week) and hard work and the escalating cost of running the business. And the increasing inability to find good help that won't steal you blind.

Jake

 

[chefjeff]

Maybe people are not playing pool because they can't afford it. Especially if they smoke and have to pay $5 a pack. And drinks and food in the pool room are not cheap either. Nor is gas to get there.

And how can poker be taking away pool players? Poker is nothing new. It's just a new game.

More than likely the pool rooms close because the owners are tired of the long hours (12 hours a day, 7 days a week) and hard work and the escalating cost of running the business. And the increasing inability to find good help that won't steal you blind.

Jake

And don't forget, they are closing because the govt. is forcing them to fire some of their best customers, with the unconstitutional, extortion-based smoking bans, not to mention taxes, regulations, paperwork, fees, licenses, etc. etc. etc.

And why would the businesses install good smoking systems, anyway? At Chalkers (now closed, Ive heard) in downtown San Francisco, they had a great ventilation system that was rendered moot when the law passed, so the $100,000+ spent on it was effectively wasted. Here they were doing what the customers wanted and then their valiant efforts were smashed for the "good" of society. Who's gonna pay for that investment, now?

Don't for a minute think the city councils give a crap about the bar and pool hall owners. They want votes and even if they have to destroy property rights, they're gonna give the voters the government they want, no matter how heavy-handed it may be. Non-smokers, be very careful what you wish for.

It's all for the children, so it OK.

Jeff, a non-smoker and lover of liberty, Livingston

 

[r0ttie1]

And don't forget, they are closing because the govt. is forcing them to fire some of their best customers, with the unconstitutional, extortion-based smoking bans, not to mention taxes, regulations, paperwork, fees, licenses, etc. etc. etc.

And why would the businesses install good smoking systems, anyway? At Chalkers (now closed, Ive heard) in downtown San Francisco, they had a great ventilation system that was rendered moot when the law passed, so the $100,000+ spent on it was effectively wasted. Here they were doing what the customers wanted and then their valiant efforts were smashed for the "good" of society. Who's gonna pay for that investment, now?

Don't for a minute think the city councils give a crap about the bar and pool hall owners. They want votes and even if they have to destroy property rights, they're gonna give the voters the government they want, no matter how heavy-handed it may be. Non-smokers, be very careful what you wish for.

It's all for the children, so it OK.

Jeff, a non-smoker and lover of liberty, Livingston

Tap tap tap.

 

[chefjeff]

Tap tap tap.

Thanks, rottie1...

For anyone's information the following link contains a list of bars, pool halls, bowling alleys, etc. that have had their businesses affected by smoking bans. It is kinda sickening to read, but damnit, we need the truth to be told.

Any clarification or comments on individual rooms is welcomed by me.

http://www.smokersclubinc.com/banloss3.htm

Jeff Livingston

 

[doitforthegame]

Thanks, rottie1...

For anyone's information the following link contains a list of bars, pool halls, bowling alleys, etc. that have had their businesses affected by smoking bans. It is kinda sickening to read, but damnit, we need the truth to be told.

Any clarification or comments on individual rooms is welcomed by me.

http://www.smokersclubinc.com/banloss3.htm

Jeff Livingston

Hey Jeff, add my room to the list; Pockets Billiards in Bradford, MA. I closed up in Feb.after 11 years. When the local smoking ban went into effect, I lost 40% of my business. It recovered by 10%. By then, I was screwed, I couldn't sell and I couldn't make enough to pay the bills. Anyone that went to my room will tell you it was a good room for tournaments and smoke was never an issue. Now, at age 55 I had to enter the job market and I am competing with 25 year old kids. But, it is like I said, at least it was safe for all those people that would never enter my room in the first place.

Curious, does anyone know if the food/sales/liquor taxes are up or down (ie in a state like Mass or CA) since the full smoking bans went into effect?

Bob Campbell