Is poker doing in the pool business? Another closing.

N

nfty9er

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I see where Hollywood Billiards located at the Hollywood race track in Calif. has recently closed down. Jay Helfert has all the equipment for sale according to the ad in a well know western U.S. pool newspaper. Now if a pool room cannot survive that is located in a hugh card room location which also has a major race track and they also conduct Bingo games, wow what does the future hold? Is poker affecting any of the forum member rooms around the country? I know it is in my area. High schoolers, college students and companies all having tournaments on a nightly basis. Because of the large overhead(rent) in pool rooms it is hard to take losses for long periods of time. Even the women are getting involved so that takes out date night that is prevealant on Saturdays.
It is really sad to see another room go under. Best wishes and good luck go out to Jay in any future endeavour. Maybe he's opening a card room. LOL.
 
I hate to say this but, booze, food and smoking seem to rule the pool rooms in my area.. "Missouri". Leaque teams appear to take up the slack. This is JMO. :eek:
 
I have to agree with Cut Shot.. I am opening a billiard cafe in Ohio. The only way to make this type of business work in our area is to have foor and a liquor license.. I know it is sad to have to say that but true. Any room in our area that did not have those 2 items just wouldn't make it.
 
nfty9er said:
I see where Hollywood Billiards located at the Hollywood race track in Calif. has recently closed down. Jay Helfert has all the equipment for sale according to the ad in a well know western U.S. pool newspaper. Now if a pool room cannot survive that is located in a hugh card room location which also has a major race track and they also conduct Bingo games, wow what does the future hold? Is poker affecting any of the forum member rooms around the country? I know it is in my area. High schoolers, college students and companies all having tournaments on a nightly basis. Because of the large overhead(rent) in pool rooms it is hard to take losses for long periods of time. Even the women are getting involved so that takes out date night that is prevealant on Saturdays.
It is really sad to see another room go under. Best wishes and good luck go out to Jay in any future endeavour. Maybe he's opening a card room. LOL.
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I hate to say this, but Jay's Billiards inside the Hollywood Park Casino will not be missed by alot of players. They did not take care of their equipment- at all. I played a tournament there once, everyone was complaining about the tables.
 
It sounds like bad management, more than poker, was the problem. But even so...

...We had to throw together our BCA league team rather quickly, this year, and as a result, we've been forced to play with a make-shift team all year. We've tried to get five guys who could play every week, but it's been difficult.

We finally found a guy who was gonna play and then---bam!--he ups and tells us that he's playing in a---you guessed it---he's playing in a poker league, instead.

Poker is currently taking away players, but when the c/c bills start arriving and the spouses begin to understand the cost of poker, my bet is that the casual poker players will "retire" before long. Will they return to pool? Who knows?

Jeff Livingston
 
Pool rooms here in Houston seem to be fairing pretty well. I don't know of any closing here on the south side where I live (and there are quite a few...Slick Willies, Barneys, Legends, and a couple more). They all serve liquor, but about the only food available is frozen pizza in a little table top oven. I don't think the "poker thing" has really affected this area much.
 
Who are you?

onepocketron said:
Pool rooms here in Houston seem to be fairing pretty well. I don't know of any closing here on the south side where I live (and there are quite a few...Slick Willies, Barneys, Legends, and a couple more). They all serve liquor, but about the only food available is frozen pizza in a little table top oven. I don't think the "poker thing" has really affected this area much.
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Ron do you play at Legends alot I play there all the time.
 
chefjeff said:
Poker is currently taking away players, but when the c/c bills start arriving and the spouses begin to understand the cost of poker, my bet is that the casual poker players will "retire" before long. Will they return to pool? Who knows?
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You're so right, Jeff. Yes, the poker fad has cost pool some business, and even the online poker fad needs to be factored in, but it's a fad. Poker seems to be perceived by so many these days as an easy way to make a buck. To me, it's not yet perceived for what it really is, gambling.

Reminds me a little of the stock market about four years ago. Many gave up their day jobs to become day traders because making money in the stock market looked easy. As we all know, far too many of them, who didn't really understand just how big a risk they were taking, got hurt badly. The fittest investors survived, but many learned a tough lesson the hard way.

Like the best investors, the great poker players will always make a living at it, but the casual poker players are, as a group, in for a rude awakening somewhere down the road. Some play poker for entertainment, and well within their financial means, and they are not the ones I worry about. The many that gamble beyond their means, however, have a disease, and it's sad to see so many are still catching that disease. The online poker player regularly gambles against unidentifiable opponents, a notion unfathomable to so many of us who play pool!

You've got it right, Jeff, when the bills come due, poker will lose its charm to many. Gambling is no way to make a living.

Let's remind the gamblers out there that losses are tax deductible only to the extent of wins. You can't carryback/carryforward across tax years. This is an oversimlification, but an investor who made 100,000 last year but lost 100,000 this year will, over those two years, pay no taxes. The gambler that does the same will pay tax on the 100,000 in year one but will not be able to reclaim any of those taxes in year two. The IRS agrees that those who gamble for a living are undeserving of equal treatment under the tax law as those earning an income from more legitimate means.

When the bills come due, the poker fad will be over, and pool will likely be among the beneficiaries.
 
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i think it depends on the demographice you're addressing. the hard core player loves to gamble. i know of two open players who have virtually abandoned pool in favor of online poker. in fact,,,quite a few players who like to gamble at the table are no longer playing pool.

i don't think poker will affect the casual player who doesn't gamble.
 
I agree, however

LastTwo said:
I hate to say this, but Jay's Billiards inside the Hollywood Park Casino will not be missed by alot of players. They did not take care of their equipment- at all. I played a tournament there once, everyone was complaining about the tables.
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I agree with you as I was a former complainer and played a tournament there with 4 tables with simonis and the rest with bar cloth. It was terrible, however with all the traffic in the area and since pool rooms do not survive on "players" it is sad to see it close and thats why I wonder if poker is having more of an effect than we realize.
 
However

sjm said:
You're so right, Jeff. Yes, the poker fad has cost pool some business, and even the online poker fad needs to be factored in, but it's a fad. Poker seems to be perceived by so many these days as an easy way to make a buck. To me, it's not yet perceived for what it really is, gambling.

Reminds me a little of the stock market about four years ago. Many gave up their day jobs to become day traders because making money in the stock market looked easy. As we all know, far too many of them, who didn't really understand just how big a risk they were taking, got hurt badly. The fittest investors survived, but many learned a tough lesson the hard way.

Like the best investors, the great poker players will always make a living at it, but the casual poker players are, as a group, in for a rude awakening somewhere down the road. Some play poker for entertainment, and well within their financial means, and they are not the ones I worry about. The many that gamble beyond their means, however, have a disease, and it's sad to see so many are still catching that disease. The online poker player regularly gambles against unidentifiable opponents, a notion unfathomable to so many of us who play pool!

You've got it right, Jeff, when the bills come due, poker will lose its charm to many. Gambling is no way to make a living.

Let's remind the gamblers out there that losses are tax deductible only to the extent of wins. You can't carryback/carryforward across tax years. This is an oversimlification, but an investor who made 100,000 last year but lost 100,000 this year will, over those two years, pay no taxes. The gambler that does the same will pay tax on the 100,000 in year one but will not be able to reclaim any of those taxes in year two. The IRS agrees that those who gamble for a living are undeserving of equal treatment under the tax law as those earning an income from more legitimate means.

When the bills come due, the poker fad will be over, and pool will likely be among the beneficiaries.
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Your reasoning is absolutely correct, but as long as it is exploited on every T.V. channel that can expolit it along with more and more online sites it will be a never ending circle where there may be no end.
 
nfty9er said:
Your reasoning is absolutely correct, but as long as it is exploited on every T.V. channel that can expolit it along with more and more online sites it will be a never ending circle where there may be no end.
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No, it won't ever end, that's for sure.

Yet, I've had a couple of my gambling friends talk about how TV poker is becoming boring. I like poker, I like cards, but I can take only about 2 minutes of TV poker before I change channels. Perhaps others are beginning to feel the same?

The rational bettors I know use TV poker as a lot of us here use TV pool: for learning. But are they a good enough demographic for the advertisers to continue to support the game?

As for online gambling, the whole world can participate, so it's doubtful if it will ever go away. But is this aspect of poker hurting pool?

Players may (re)discover that they have more control on a pool table than in a poker room.

Time will tell,

Jeff Livingston
 
Hey Candyman... don't forget the leaque teams. In my area they go through the booze and food like army ants! I tried to join up and found out they could only put me on a looooong waiting list! Oh well.. maybe I will sign up eary next year! :D
candyman said:
I have to agree with Cut Shot.. I am opening a billiard cafe in Ohio. The only way to make this type of business work in our area is to have foor and a liquor license.. I know it is sad to have to say that but true. Any room in our area that did not have those 2 items just wouldn't make it.
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chefjeff said:
As for online gambling, the whole world can participate, so it's doubtful if it will ever go away. But is this aspect of poker hurting pool?
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Jeff, continuing the analogy with the day trading boom of 1999-2000, the emergence of low-cost internet stock trading was the reason that the little guy could get into the big-time investing game. And so it is with on-line poker, where one can now get into the poker game so easily now. Few foresaw that the bubble would burst in day trading, but it did at the very moment where casual investors started to have bad results. The emergence of the technology that got the little guy into the investment game didn't guarantee the little guys would be around for long, and the same will prove true of poker somewhere down the road.
 
Pool, Poker, and the Advent of the Internet...

Even though some are wont to never mention that little dirty word "gambling" in the same sentence as pool, the game by its very roots comes from a strong background of gambling, at least here in the States. "Money won is sweeter than money earned" is THE high which made games of stake, whether it be 9-ball, one-pocket, or bumps, exciting for many a player from days gone by. Though the money payouts in tournaments are just about the same in the year 2004 as 1974, the tournament setting is one of the few remaining places for an aspiring pool player or a veteran warhorse to shine. Action games still do take place, but never will it be like it was in the '70s and '80s.

With the advent of the Internet, pool has not received very many benefits from modern technology. Poker, on the other hand, aside from the excessive TV coverage, has elevated because of the ease and immediate gratification of poker websites.

There is a strong majority of pool players, whether they be bar bangers or pros, who enjoy gambling. Poker doesn't take years of practice, you need no expensive tools, and most with an average intelligence can become proficient, if they so desire. The poker on the Internet offers an immediate fix to those who do have the gambling disease.

The sport of pocket billiards here in the States is in deparate need of a personality, a face-lift, if you will. To date, it is robotic, emotionless, and drab. When its own members, i.e., pool players, begin to leave the sport to "compete" in poker rooms or on their own personal PC's, to include walking out of a pool tournament match to make post time at poker-dot-com, it is, indeed, very disconcerting.

Hate to say it, but the advent of smoking bans throughout the country, especially during the bitter cold winter seasons of the East Coast, hasn't helped pool to thrive either. Longtime billiard room proprietors, the very places where most are exposed to the game initially, are closing up shop, many of them having been in the business for a couple of decades or more.

Poker may be enjoying great success, but pool is in a recession. :(

JAM
 
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To smoke or not to smoke is not the question!

JAM said:
Even though some are wont to never mention that little dirty word "gambling" in the same sentence as pool, the game by its very roots comes from a strong background of gambling, at least here in the States. "Money won is sweeter than money earned" is THE high which made games of stake, whether it be 9-ball, one-pocket, or bumps, exciting for many a player from days gone by. Though the money payouts in tournaments are just about the same in the year 2004 as 1974, the tournament setting is one of the few remaining places for an aspiring pool player or a veteran warhorse to shine. Action games still do take place, but never will it be like it was on the '70s and '80s.

With the advent of the Internet, pool has not received very many benefits from modern technology. Poker, on the other hand, aside from the excessive TV coverage, has elevated because of the ease and immediate gratification of poker websites.

There is a strong majority of pool players, whether they be bar bangers or pros, who enjoy gambling. Poker doesn't take years of practice, you need no expensive tools, and most with an average intelligence can become proficient, if they so desire. The poker on the Internet offers an immediate fix to those who do have the gambling disease.

The sport of pocket billiards here in the States is in deparate need of a personality, a face-lift, if you will. To date, it is robotic, emotionless, and drab. When its own members, i.e., pool players, begin to leave the sport to "compete" in poker rooms or on their own personal PC's, to include walking out of a pool tournament match to make post time at poker-dot-com, it is, indeed, very disconcerting.

Hate to say it, but the advent of smoking bans throughout the country, especially during the bitter cold winter seasons of the East Coast, hasn't helped pool to thrive either. Longtime billiard room proprietors, the very places where most are exposed to the game initially, are closing up shop, many of them having been in the business for a couple of decades or more.

Poker may be enjoying great success, but pool is in a recession. :(

JAM
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Jam i agree with what you say until mentioning the smoking bans. When they first banned smoking in California I was sure it was the end of the business. I fought it for a long time until finally enforcing it because of enormous pressure from the local police dept. Business took a downturn for about 2-3 months then lo and behold the smoking ban was a boon to the business. I was amazed at how many non smokers started coming in to play pool who had stayed away for years because of the smoke. It made sense as the percentage of non smokers is way more than smokers. Hence a lot more possible customers. That first full year of non smoking we set a income record. The regulars who smoked have adjusted handsomly and I cannot thinkk of one regular or gambler who has stopped playing pool because of the ban. As a business owner I speak from behind the scenes and have the numbers to back it up. Poker on the other hand has had a tremendous impact on business in more ways than one and doesn't compare to the smoking ban. But we will survive and we celebrate our 25th anniversary on
Super Bowl Sunday.
P.Sl we have a few poker games of our own. lol
 
To smoke or not to smoke is not the question!

JAM said:
Even though some are wont to never mention that little dirty word "gambling" in the same sentence as pool, the game by its very roots comes from a strong background of gambling, at least here in the States. "Money won is sweeter than money earned" is THE high which made games of stake, whether it be 9-ball, one-pocket, or bumps, exciting for many a player from days gone by. Though the money payouts in tournaments are just about the same in the year 2004 as 1974, the tournament setting is one of the few remaining places for an aspiring pool player or a veteran warhorse to shine. Action games still do take place, but never will it be like it was in the '70s and '80s.

With the advent of the Internet, pool has not received very many benefits from modern technology. Poker, on the other hand, aside from the excessive TV coverage, has elevated because of the ease and immediate gratification of poker websites.

There is a strong majority of pool players, whether they be bar bangers or pros, who enjoy gambling. Poker doesn't take years of practice, you need no expensive tools, and most with an average intelligence can become proficient, if they so desire. The poker on the Internet offers an immediate fix to those who do have the gambling disease.

The sport of pocket billiards here in the States is in deparate need of a personality, a face-lift, if you will. To date, it is robotic, emotionless, and drab. When its own members, i.e., pool players, begin to leave the sport to "compete" in poker rooms or on their own personal PC's, to include walking out of a pool tournament match to make post time at poker-dot-com, it is, indeed, very disconcerting.

Hate to say it, but the advent of smoking bans throughout the country, especially during the bitter cold winter seasons of the East Coast, hasn't helped pool to thrive either. Longtime billiard room proprietors, the very places where most are exposed to the game initially, are closing up shop, many of them having been in the business for a couple of decades or more.

Poker may be enjoying great success, but pool is in a recession. :(

JAM
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I respectfully disagree with your anaolgy about the smoking ban. Being a "proprietor" for 25 years I too though the smoking would be the end of my business. After a 2-3 month loss of business after I finally enforced the ban due to outside police pressure business again picked up. Remember there are a lot more non smoking people than smoking in this country thus a lot more customer base. I was amazed to hear how many people come in and say they loved playing pool but would not participate because of all the smoking they had to put up with. The first fulll year of enforcing the ban was the mos profitible in 25 years. If people are closing I guarantee it is not because of the smoking ban. I know of no players or gamblers I lost because of it and we have gained a lot more in the long run. We are celebrating our 25th anniversary on Super Bowl Sunday. We will be having a golf tournament, a pool tournament and a poker tournament. Lol. You and Keith are invited. However no smoking allowed.
 
That is great for the California billiard room proprietors that the smoking bans have helped business. Not wanting to start a smoking debate, I just inserted the thought of smoking bans being a deterrent to go to pool rooms on the East Coast, especially during the cold and bitter winter seasons.

In Upstate New York, as an example, I know of five pool rooms which have closed their doors and attribute it to the statewide smoking ban. Here in the D.C. area, two rooms have closed up, and another will close as soon as their lease runs out early next year.

I am a smoker, and personally, I don't mind the no-smoking establishments. It has hurt business with the people I have spoken to, not only pool room, but bars and places where people congregate to recreate. It may be an East Coast thing, but it is a reality in some parts.

Camel Cigarettes sponsored the Viriginia State 9-Ball Championship in Richmond which was won by Chris Laur earlier this year. If the smoking ban does go nationwide, I'll bet Virginia, the tobacco State, will be the last one on the ban-wagon (pun intended)! ;)

JAM
 
chefjeff said:
No, it won't ever end, that's for sure.

Yet, I've had a couple of my gambling friends talk about how TV poker is becoming boring. I like poker, I like cards, but I can take only about 2 minutes of TV poker before I change channels. Perhaps others are beginning to feel the same?


Time will tell,

Jeff Livingston
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I must agree with you Jeff,when poker was first shown on TV being played by good players it was amusing but now that it is on every single day on six or eight channels and being played with celebrities and personalities that don't have a clue how to play it is way boring. :o
 
The poker craze is and has been taking off because anyone can win. People think if they just watch it on TV and read a book or two on 'holdem they can go win tournaments, or go play poker in the casinos and try to make a living playing the game. I was playing texas holdem quite often for a while, it's pretty addicting when you're on a winning streak. Now I go to the casino about twice a month at most. Every time I go, I see the same faces. There are alot of young college guys there, who play the same game every night.

IMO, the reason why poker is drawing such a crowd is because people love a game where anyone can win. People think that after reading a book on poker they can go play the $30-60 games or $300 no limit. It's kind of like comparing that to a quick-fix in pool, something that will automatically make you play like a champion. People don't want to dedicate years and years to get good at a game that is many times less popular than poker. The decieving thing about poker to this young crowd, is that many of them don't realize that they are the biggest fish in the casinos. There are guys in the casinos who prey on these youngsters. For example, a $10-20 'holdem game with a bunch of young guys wearing college shirts and caps is like a jackpot for the cardsharks. I've seen guys get up from a $60-120 game after being up a rack switch to a $15-30 game just because there were a bunch of egotistical youngsters sittin at the table. It's sad but true.
 
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