Is pool growing or dying based on the total number of players?

[Cron]

I think of the pool "community" as I do star constellations. In some parts, there is great clusters, others parts, loners hanging on. That being said, if pool tables were stars in the sky, the sky is growing darker.

I have my own opinion, and that is in terms of marketing. You can fit 15 more human bodies in a place if you remove just one 8 foot pool table. I do not count private tables as part of the "community", because "community" and "private" don't mix in any state of reality (the marketing term "Private Community" is a deception of just that, but it sells :-/ ).

I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio.

 

[cluelesscuer]

Here's another question for you...

Is going out in general to do anything down or if not, will it soon be in the future?

I mean you can do or get just about anything from internet these days. Will online dating destroy the bar business? I can buy just about everything from Amazon now instead of a store.

Bit of a tangent...but stuff to think about.

 

[JuicyGirl]

G'damn azb... why can't green this post.
Good one man!

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
Mark Twain

 

[realkingcobra]

I'm not sure anyone can really make a completely informed answer to this.
There's no organization that polls or keeps statistics on the number of pool players.
It's hard to even get a realistic statistic that is accurate to within, say, 10 million.

So most people's comments are based on "general impressions".
If you live in one area it might seem like pool is thriving, and in another are it seems like it's dying.

One thing that I believe to be true, is there are fewer pool halls now than there were
during the peak of pool's popularity. There are fewer pro tours, fewer professionals,
and less money than there was at pool's height (which I believe was in the 1930's).

Whether pool is growing or shrinking, depends on the time scale you want to use.
There might be more pool players today than there were 1 year ago. Or not. Who knows?
There are almost certainly fewer pool players today than there were 85 years ago.

I don't think "dying" is the right word to describe this shrinkage.
The popularity of any sport can go up and down, but dying is a word I'd use when there number of players is measured in the thousands, not in the tens (or hundreds?) of millions.

When pool reaches a point where I can say "ever play pool?" to someone on the street,
and 90% of them don't know what that means, then we can start talking about the death of pool.

So, are there LESS or MORE cue makers today, than there was 85 years ago? For a slowing, or dying sport....there's MORE cue makers today building and selling more cues than ever in the history of this sport...so, I think people need to look at other gages to read this industry besides pool rooms that refuse to get caught up with the times and therefor fall under the bridge of doom because of it.

Glen

 

[Push&Pool]

Bullshit. You play in crappy bars with other bangers who don't have a clue about the game of pool. The drinking scene is stable in your area and there just happens to be some pool tables around.

You calling the environment you are in a part of the "pool community" is like me using the calculator on my iPhone and saying I am a part of the advanced mathematics community.

You are clueless, as usual.

Even if I forgot that some of these "bangers" in my area played on national or European-level tournaments, my humble crew and I are still doing more for pool than the average kid who spends all his time on the web and probably never held a cue. I also stated in the OP that for the purpose of this thread we count anyone who plays regularly as a pool player, bangers included.

Yes, but in the small Polish farming community Push&pool is from, the bar has a pool table, where he and his friends make up stupid rules on the fly while taking a running start for power shots, and they get like 15 people on weekend nights, so the line is like really long, and he held the table for 30 minutes without losing due to advance and unconventional strategies.

And by the way, the above quoted post reinforces my point about the retirement community and the culture today for the younger crowd.

I hope this is just another failed attempt at being funny, cause now I start to wonder if you ever heard of the term "geography". Polish farming community wouldn't be the best description of the place, as we have at least half a dozen fairly popular bars and pool rooms, with a large number of players being rather young. Let's settle the argument with this: older crowd is more likely to play pool on a regular basis, but if the young ones have places to play which they like in general (bars, music, relative proximity of city center and night clubs, other games like darts, reasonable prices...), they'll easily outnumber more mature players.

What MahnaMahna is pointing out is simple demographics. In my case a bunch of geezers who grew up playing in bars in college towns, student unions, or on military bases. We now have the security of our own homes with nice tables in the basement. We are surrounded by like minded folks. And just like 40 or 50 years ago it is a social gathering.

As to that 18-35 year old grouping, he's right. I have a nephew who grew up never owning a baseball glove, football or hockey stick. The only way he relates to others of his age group is with smart phone or computer games. All geek, all the time. That does not bode well for pool which is a social game or sport.

I don't know what the stats might be for the numbers of players per 100,000 now vs. the 1930's. I do know it's moved from the public hall to the private basement. Even with all the basement tables in my neighborhood there are still three pool halls within five miles of me. (Winchester, VA.) Considering the population density, that is amazing.

From my experience a large majority of kids and younger people won't spend all their time indoors if they have places to go out which are close by, rather cheap and suit their needs. Most bars are an excellent example of that. Now, if you manage to get pool tables in schools with infinite free play time...

So, are there LESS or MORE cue makers today, than there was 85 years ago? For a slowing, or dying sport....there's MORE cue makers today building and selling more cues than ever in the history of this sport...so, I think people need to look at other gages to read this industry besides pool rooms that refuse to get caught up with the times and therefor fall under the bridge of doom because of it.

Glen

If the statistics you're speaking of are correct, that's great news! I agree that most people here are too close-minded and old-fashioned that they don't want to settle with the numbers. They want their pre-WWII pool halls back, even if that's impossible at this moment. If you ask me, every pool fan should be more than happy if the following happened:
- the complete pool scene moves to bars
- the number of bars containing at least one pool table grows rapidly
- total number of sold tables, cues and other equipment increases (this doesn't include private tables)
- much more young people are attracted to pool (at least as bangers)
- massive amateur leagues (like APA, GPPA etc.) gain countless new members and thrive
- pool becomes firmly stable and begins to rise globally once again

I'd trade every pool hall out there this very second for the events above coming true.

 

[DeadStick]

I brought a bit of data to bear on this conversation, and started a new thread at http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=355435.

 

[Straightpool_99]

.................

 

[Push&Pool]

I don't know why I'm even trying, but here goes: Moving the entire pool scene to bars would be a CATASTROPHE for the game of pool!
1. In civilized society kids are not allowed in bars. The earlier you start playing the better your potential for development. No kids playing= very few top players.
2. Equipment in bars are usually not top of the line. Bad tables, slow cloth, mismatched ball sets, ratty cues, no chalk etc will lead to a decline in the quality of play.
3. It's very hard to practise in a bar. Usually there's loud music, drunks bumping into you and a line waiting to play. The only game you will get to play is 8 ball with moronic, made up rules.
4. Tables in bars are there to ensure that people hang around and order drinks. When you beat people in a bar they tend to get mad, especially if you are a good player. They will then either complain to the management or start a fight. The result will be that the good players will no longer be welcome back.
5. To be a good player you usually need to play every day, at least part of your life. If you hang around in bars and drink every day there's a good chance you'll become a fat drunken loser before you become a good player.
6. It is my opinion that the way forward for pool is for it to be treated as a sport. That way you'll recruit great people to the game, and the game will be developed further. Nobody respects bar games, and pool has zero chance as a sport if all tables are ratty bar boxes in bars.
7. All sports progress faster when the top people are gathered in one place competing against each other and learning from one another. If your competition consists solely of drunken idiots who are unable to tie their shoelaces without falling over, you will not have any reason to work on your game. Instead you might start suffering from delusions of grandeur and make online pool manuals with made up terminology.

I didn't say it would be a good thing for pool if only the bar scene existed, but what I do think is that I'd rather have a super-strong bar-only scene than "serious" pool slowly dying out.

Also, I'm not sure what bars you're talking about but here going to bars doesn't necessarily include alcohol and teens can normally get in whenever they want. They usually come to play pool after all, not to get drunk, and they often go there throughout the whole day.

P.S. Be aware that I'm talking about bringing the masses to pool. That loud music and huge crowd which you say prevent you from practicing in the eyes of almost every young fellow are in fact good song they like listening to while hanging out and a bunch of friends they have fun with (and play together with). That's how you worry about quantity. Quality pool is an entire different thing which I'll let you deal with.

 

[Colonel]

Pool should be moved OUT of bars. I'm going to draw heat for saying this but bar boxes ISN'T pool and 4 1/2 x 9 tables aren't "big" tables, they're standard equipment. You'll never develop a full stroke playing on a bar box. If this sport is to survive and American players are to compete with the talent coming out of Europe, Philippines & China then pool needs to return to pool rooms on standard tables where players can develop the full potential of their game. Just my .02 cents


Why am I the Colonel? Because I always get the chicken

 

[realkingcobra]

Pool should be moved OUT of bars.

So, let me get this straight...you'd be in favor of forcing 100,000's of thousands of bar players OUT of the bars, so that they should have to IMPROVE their stroke on 4 1/2'x9' pool tables in pool halls....and that helps this sport out how?

 

[floppybear]

I would guess most of the pool players are in the cardrooms nowadays. They don't have to deal with waiting for their "fish" to enter the pool room to play for...uh, $5 a game. After paying for time they are lucky to come $25 winner. As for me...I enjoy the sport, but don't have time available (bills, son's education,...and did I mention bills) to play on a daily basis anymore. Maybe in the next 10 years I will pick up a cue again...

 

[realkingcobra]

I would guess most of the pool players are in the cardrooms nowadays. They don't have to deal with waiting for their "fish" to enter the pool room to play for...uh, $5 a game. After paying for time they are lucky to come $25 winner. As for me...I enjoy the sport, but don't have time available (bills, son's education,...and did I mention bills) to play on a daily basis anymore. Maybe in the next 10 years I will pick up a cue again...

They're not in the card rooms either, unless of course you're figuring they have a pocket full of money to play cards with, which for the most part don't happen unless they cash out in a pool tournament already being held in a casino most are learning to get jobs, and play pool on the side...what a change

 

[Colonel]

So, let me get this straight...you'd be in favor of forcing 100,000's of thousands of bar players OUT of the bars, so that they should have to IMPROVE their stroke on 4 1/2'x9' pool tables in pool halls....and that helps this sport out how?

Nobody can force anybody anywhere. Bar owners don't give a care about pool, it's a source of entertainment for their drinking customers and as far as leagues go its a way to insure they have X amount of people coming into their establishment X number of nights a week for X amount of hours and buying drinks while they're there, it really doesn't have anything to do with the good of pool. Pool should be in an environment about pool, a place young people of non drinking age can go to hone their skills & learn the sport on standard size equipment so they learn it correctly, develop their skills to full potential to compete with players from other points of the globe. My aversion is to bar boxes, not bars, it's a b*stard version of the game, just my opinion. You take a player that learns on a standard table & they can make the conversion to a box pretty quickly. You take a player that plays on nothing but a box & put them on a standard table & a standard table player will torture them on it, it's like comparing chess to checkers, not to mention developing skills in games like one pocket and 14.1, again just my opinion.


Why am I the Colonel? Because I always get the chicken

 

[1187mg]

This is something I have been thinking about since I have started playing again. Let me give you all some background. When I was growing up we played on a buddie of mine's dads table in his basement. Then when I got in high school and got my liscense we went to the pool hall downtown after school. Big long hiatus-marrige (two) kids by both marriages. Then this past year we wnt on vacation and they had a pool table in the game room. We have been playing since then. Money is tight (see marragies) so I bought a cheap 50 dollar table with a ply wood slate ! I finially found a pool hall with diamond tables in it and we shoot there when we can.

I was off this weekend and here is how we (my family) played pool. Friday night we had a four hour nine ball tournament with my wife,10 year old son,7 year old daughter,and 70 year old dad. I managed to be the champion at the end of the night-wonder how? I was going to go to the pool hall Saturday and shoot but my daughter had a birthday party to go to so my oldest son(17) and my ten year old son went and shoot some on crappy boling alley tables while she was at the birthday party. Then we came home and shoot some more.

This is what we have spent so far on pool. I have bought a used Mcderrmot cue and my oldest and youngest son have bought department store cues. When we play at that pool hall it's 2.40 a hour a person. Bolling alley is 4.40 a hour doesn't matter how many people play. That and some drinks and food is what we've spent on it so far. I am really wanting a good table but that will probably wait until next winter though. I watch the youtube vides for free and look at the stuff they advertise.

I would think that my kids will play when they get older just because we have so much fun now doing it.

So where do we stand in the pool world?

 

[CreeDo]

So, are there LESS or MORE cue makers today, than there was 85 years ago?
For a slowing, or dying sport....there's MORE cue makers today building and selling more cues
than ever in the history of this sport

Not 100% disagreeing with you, maybe this is true,
But do you have sales figures from somewhere, or a survey, something with actual figures?
Or is this one of those "general impressions"?

Since the 1930's, the world population has more than tripled.
So if pool is as popular now as it was then, I'd expect the number of cues to triple too.
If it hasn't then pool may be declining even if more people are playing.

Also, if more cues are being made, are they getting used?
I see pool halls that seem to treat them as a disposable resource,
a tip pops off they just throw it in a bucket, and once the bucket is full they buy a fresh batch.

 

[Push&Pool]

Nobody can force anybody anywhere. Bar owners don't give a care about pool, it's a source of entertainment for their drinking customers and as far as leagues go its a way to insure they have X amount of people coming into their establishment X number of nights a week for X amount of hours and buying drinks while they're there, it really doesn't have anything to do with the good of pool. Pool should be in an environment about pool, a place young people of non drinking age can go to hone their skills & learn the sport on standard size equipment so they learn it correctly, develop their skills to full potential to compete with players from other points of the globe. My aversion is to bar boxes, not bars, it's a b*stard version of the game, just my opinion. You take a player that learns on a standard table & they can make the conversion to a box pretty quickly. You take a player that plays on nothing but a box & put them on a standard table & a standard table player will torture them on it, it's like comparing chess to checkers, not to mention developing skills in games like one pocket and 14.1, again just my opinion.


Why am I the Colonel? Because I always get the chicken

So bar pool is the bastard version of the game? As far as I can see, pool somewhat thrives, at least in certain areas, primarily due to the existence of bar bangers and leagues.

Don't worry, I'm not that simple to think that's the way pool should be played. But for now, while the sport is in decline, I think it would be most beneficial for pool to get as many new recreational players and bangers to the game as possible. Let's say it this way: if we had dozens upon dozens, maybe even hundreds of millions of bar players on the globe, even if "high-quality" pool didn't exist at all, at least a handful of those "bangers" would get good enough to reinvent the worldwide pro pool. On the other hand, without bangers regularly playing in the rooms and bars I simply don't see pool getting popular enough among common people to acquire more young talents into top level.

 

[realkingcobra]

Not 100% disagreeing with you, maybe this is true,
But do you have sales figures from somewhere, or a survey, something with actual figures?
Or is this one of those "general impressions"?

Since the 1930's, the world population has more than tripled.
So if pool is as popular now as it was then, I'd expect the number of cues to triple too.
If it hasn't then pool may be declining even if more people are playing.

Also, if more cues are being made, are they getting used?
I see pool halls that seem to treat them as a disposable resource,
a tip pops off they just throw it in a bucket, and once the bucket is full they buy a fresh batch.

I lived in Europe back before anyone ever heard of a Pro from there, back in the 70's there were no pool rooms in Germany or Italy, just some bar tables we use to gamble on. The only place to play on 9's was at the post recreation centers, evey base had them. I remember when Japan pick up on playing pool, Brunswick and Diamond couldn't build the tables fast enough to fill the demand. The world now for the most part is playing pool in more countries than ever, with millions playing, and more players on the way. Maybe the problem you're talking about is just the good old American problem overall....pay me first, and maybe I'll play...because it cost to much for me to play....anyone know where I can practice and play for free?????