Is Schmidt's and charlie 626 Legit

gerryf

Well-known member
It is my understanding that JS had that table especially set up for high runs.

The table was selected and brought in because it played super soft -- the pockets were extra big, the rails especially forgiving, it was set up with not normal cloth, heaters under the table, and the a/c in the room set super high. There may have been some other stuff done but it definitely wasn't a case of him walking into a strange room and taking on what was there with a room full of strangers.

I am willing to stand corrected and retract any or all of that if someone wants to counter with facts.

Lou Figueroa
I wait with bait
on my breath
If all that were true, do you have a sense what kind of difference it would make?

Extra big pockets, how extra big? Mosconi had 5" pockets to work with on his 4x8, and I had heard I think, that JS's 4x9 had the same 5".
What kind of abnormal cloth would make a difference, and what kind of difference? Are there that many different kinds of cloth? The people who bought patches from JS might know more.

As for humidity, I've heard players complain that the room was too dry, and not like their humid home rooms that they were used to. I've heard people complain the opposite.

Are you thinking that those conditions, if there were any truth to them, would have made a big difference, or are you thinking that they might have allowed say, ball 534 to go in, when it might not have on a table with different rails or a more humid room?

Maybe someone who saw the video could comment if there were many shots that fell in that wouldn't have on other tables.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
If all that were true, do you have a sense what kind of difference it would make?

Extra big pockets, how extra big? Mosconi had 5" pockets to work with on his 4x8, and I had heard I think, that JS's 4x9 had the same 5".
What kind of abnormal cloth would make a difference, and what kind of difference? Are there that many different kinds of cloth? The people who bought patches from JS might know more.

As for humidity, I've heard players complain that the room was too dry, and not like their humid home rooms that they were used to. I've heard people complain the opposite.

Are you thinking that those conditions, if there were any truth to them, would have made a big difference, or are you thinking that they might have allowed say, ball 534 to go in, when it might not have on a table with different rails or a more humid room?

Maybe someone who saw the video could comment if there were many shots that fell in that wouldn't have on other tables.
It’s entirely about ensuring the break shots are easier to execute. I don’t think the big pockets are because anyone expects John to miss a routine shot, but instead it’s about getting a higher percentage of break shots and clutch recovery shots.

Also the faster than normal cloth, the table heater, polished balls and dry conditions means the balls will open more easily. This is especially important on shallow angle break shots where he may not have got nearly as much action. He is also more likely to get fully open table layouts after the break than if you were playing in a random room on older cloth.

If all of the above conditions were in place, they were indeed tailored for super high runs.
 

gerryf

Well-known member
It’s entirely about ensuring the break shots are easier to execute. I don’t think the big pockets are because anyone expects John to miss a routine shot, but instead it’s about getting a higher percentage of break shots and clutch recovery shots.

Also the faster than normal cloth, the table heater, polished balls and dry conditions means the balls will open more easily. This is especially important on shallow angle break shots where he may not have got nearly as much action. He is also more likely to get fully open table layouts after the break than if you were playing in a random room on older cloth.

If all of the above conditions were in place, they were indeed tailored for super high runs.
So does that mean that it comes down to the number of clusters? Fast, dry cloth leads to fewer clusters?

According to the commentators on Youtube, fast dry cloth is characteristic of tournaments in some cities over others.

It's another wrinkle.

Mosconi on his 8' table had about a 13% easier time getting into the pockets, and his shots were also 13% shorter, and if the balls were spread out evenly, Mosconi had 22% more crowding to deal with.

Does fast dry cloth reduce clusters by 5%, 10% or more?
 
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Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It’s entirely about ensuring the break shots are easier to execute. I don’t think the big pockets are because anyone expects John to miss a routine shot, but instead it’s about getting a higher percentage of break shots and clutch recovery shots.

Also the faster than normal cloth, the table heater, polished balls and dry conditions means the balls will open more easily. This is especially important on shallow angle break shots where he may not have got nearly as much action. He is also more likely to get fully open table layouts after the break than if you were playing in a random room on older cloth.

If all of the above conditions were in place, they were indeed tailored for super high runs.
No speed records were set into a headwind.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If all that were true, do you have a sense what kind of difference it would make?

Extra big pockets, how extra big? Mosconi had 5" pockets to work with on his 4x8, and I had heard I think, that JS's 4x9 had the same 5".
What kind of abnormal cloth would make a difference, and what kind of difference? Are there that many different kinds of cloth? The people who bought patches from JS might know more.

As for humidity, I've heard players complain that the room was too dry, and not like their humid home rooms that they were used to. I've heard people complain the opposite.

Are you thinking that those conditions, if there were any truth to them, would have made a big difference, or are you thinking that they might have allowed say, ball 534 to go in, when it might not have on a table with different rails or a more humid room?

Maybe someone who saw the video could comment if there were many shots that fell in that wouldn't have on other tables.

I think we all know that pocket size is not the only measurement that matters when it comes to determining how easy they play.

I also think that we have all experienced variations in cloth that can make it harder or easier to run balls. (I think the pieces of cloth fans got was laminated or sealed up, so I'm not so sure they'd be able to tell much.) As to humidity, i also think it is common knowledge that humid conditions are not conducive to best play and in fact 3C tournament tables are set up with heaters to warm the slate and at many tournament venues the a/c is jacked up. I know that when I was at Buffalo’s to watch their 1pocket tournament there a couple of months ago there was a big dehumidifier running and at one point Scott Frost barked at a guy messing with the a/c over the streaming table -- SF wanted it cold. It is usually freezing at the DCC in the tournament rooms.

So my opinion is that yes, all those conditions, if true, would make a big difference and is why they were deployed in the first place.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So does that mean that it comes down to the number of clusters? Fast, dry cloth leads to fewer clusters?

According to the commentators on Youtube, fast dry cloth is characteristic of tournaments in some cities over others.

It's another wrinkle.

Mosconi on his 8' table had about a 13% easier time getting into the pockets, and his shots were also 13% shorter, and if the balls were spread out evenly, Mosconi had 22% more crowding to deal with.

Does fast dry cloth reduce clusters by 5%, 10% or more?

As any 14.1 player knows: if the balls open up just a wee bit more because of dry conditions it is huge.

Lou Figueroa
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Facts are hard to deal with and especially if you have none.
Here are some facts. Mosconi made one attempt against a bonafide exhibition opponent in a game to 200 points that continued to the 526 run. Mosconi record against his opponent 1- 0.
John Schmidt 1100 attempts to set record playing none other than Himself.
His record against Himself 1 to -1099.
No comparison, just hearsay facts.
Well, the facts are Mosconi had dozens and dozens and dozens of exhibitions over the years. Each one was an "attempt" at running a huge number. Just like his 526, if he was running 200 he probably would have kept going. And yes, sometimes he didn't.

But, nothing much gets by you, I can tell ;)
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
U sure do hear a lot, to not know anything.
Did you hear about Walter winning md state title in 2014?
Lots did.

I'm a bad mofo. I don't even have to play to be the best. Too bad you can't play, I really would have enjoyed putting your money in my pocket.. what?! It's not too late?

Great response you had there too. Really sheds light on the 'world championship' which picks its entrants .
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
I plan on slowing down my footage in relation to future post in this thread, I guess that is different than the sped up footage they show in the 626 theater. I was contemplating j.s's/c.w theater show and the experimental evidence the two people with bca - have provided the Public. I thought of an interesting analogy, people who attend say a book show vs the people who attend the bca/ j.s/c.w. theater show. Both are interested in getting to know the Author, however at the book show - the avid reader can purchase a signed copy of the book the Author is presenting - and take it home. In the up schmit creek theater deal - yer just another happy customer leaving - with no unedited video to take home - this should hit home. Their proof that Mosconi's World record has been surpassed is weak at best. Actually having an unedited video of 626 for the people to take home from the theater show - would make it Legit. The cow jumping over the moon/theater show - won't stand next to Mosconi's Legit and well documented 526. This thread will remain, I'm about 80% sure at this point - the '626 claim' was nothing more than propaganda to propel schmit (Andy Vollaria) through the hall of fame. I actually hope I am wrong on this one, unfortunately - after them bca/j.s/c.w - withholding any Real Evidence - for over two yrs now after their announcement - I think it is highly unlikely.
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, the facts are Mosconi had dozens and dozens and dozens of exhibitions over the years. Each one was an "attempt" at running a huge number. Just like his 526, if he was running 200 he probably would have kept going. And yes, sometimes he didn't.

But, nothing much gets by you, I can tell ;)

We've been over this numerous times and what you are saying is totally incorrect.

Yes, he put on exhibitions for years and would run 100 virtually every time. Or, if he got out with a lesser number, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" do it, and then launch into his trick shots. By all accounts, he just stopped cold when he got to 100 except for that one night when the crowd urged him on and he ran the 526.

Then it was off to the next room or town for the next exhibition, sometimes the same day. He was there play a match, put on a show, collect a paycheck, and move on. Willie did not care about high runs. Charlie Ursitti reported that he racked for Mosconi before he played Fats and when he got past 600, with a perfect break shot at hand, Mosconi unscrewed and reputedly said: See, running over 600 is no big deal.

Lou Figueroa
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
We've been over this numerous times and what you are saying is totally incorrect.

Yes, he put on exhibitions for years and would run 100 virtually every time. Or, if he got out with a lesser number, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" do it, and then launch into his trick shots. By all accounts, he just stopped cold when he got to 100 except for that one night when the crowd urged him on and he ran the 526.

Then it was off to the next room or town for the next exhibition, sometimes the same day. He was there play a match, put on a show, collect a paycheck, and move on. Willie did not care about high runs. Charlie Ursitti reported that he racked for Mosconi before he played Fats and when he got past 600, with a perfect break shot at hand, Mosconi unscrewed and reputedly said: See, running over 600 is no big deal.

Lou Figueroa
Yeah, so. He stopped. Too bad. On 526 he didn't. I'm sure that is not the only run where he didn't stop. And without video, we'll never know.
Willie didn't care about high runs. Good for him. But, you all are freaking out about some guy who broke a high run record against some other guy who didn't give a fuk. Weird.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Makes no difference to me how bad you think you are.
You were within forty miles of getting your load lightened a couple of weeks ago when you were in Brevard, NC.
Cues won’t help you put my money into your pocket.
Whether or not I play regularly, doesn’t effect my ability to you straight about who(m) is the better pocket billiards player. Rādär
Screenshot_20210721-172309__01.jpg
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I plan on slowing down my footage in relation to future post in this thread, I guess that is different than the sped up footage they show in the 626 theater. I was contemplating j.s's/c.w theater show and the experimental evidence the two people with bca - have provided the Public. I thought of an interesting analogy, people who attend say a book show vs the people who attend the bca/ j.s/c.w. theater show. Both are interested in getting to know the Author, however at the book show - the avid reader can purchase a signed copy of the book the Author is presenting - and take it home. In the up schmit creek theater deal - yer just another happy customer leaving - with no unedited video to take home - this should hit home. Their proof that Mosconi's World record has been surpassed is weak at best. Actually having an unedited video of 626 for the people to take home from the theater show - would make it Legit. The cow jumping over the moon/theater show - won't stand next to Mosconi's Legit and well documented 526. This thread will remain, I'm about 80% sure at this point - the '626 claim' was nothing more than propaganda to propel schmit (Andy Vollaria) through the hall of fame. I actually hope I am wrong on this one, unfortunately - after them bca/j.s/c.w - withholding any Real Evidence - for over two yrs now after their announcement - I think it is highly unlikely.
Slowed down= doctored= edited= chopped.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, so. He stopped. Too bad. On 526 he didn't. I'm sure that is not the only run where he didn't stop. And without video, we'll never know.
Willie didn't care about high runs. Good for him. But, you all are freaking out about some guy who broke a high run record against some other guy who didn't give a fuk. Weird.

How are you sure there were other runs when he didn’t stop?

Besides all that, and speaking just for myself, I’m not freaked out about any of this as I’m sure you are not.

Lou Figueroa
 
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