Is Schmidt's and charlie 626 Legit

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bobby, well of course it all stinks more than Seattle's Pike's Place Fish Market.

But the only guys that can smell it are the guys that have actually studied and played and run balls at 14.1.

Lou Figueroa

You are one of a few strong objectors that has maintained rationality about the matter, given your consistent position that you'll reserve final judgement until the vid is released.

To claim one has to have achieved a certain skill level to make judgement on the matter isn't in line with that.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No doubt about John being only for John.

why is 760 'cheating' and 860 not? I really see a lot of the detail nitpicking as highly petty.

If he was going for a speed record, he sure as shit wouldn't have attempted into a headwind, it stands to reason the conditions were as favorable as possible, but the allegations of doctored equipment are more unproven than the 626, so why do people keep spouting them as fact?

Lou I really want to believe John did run 626 but even if he did its not a record of ANY kind except for his personal record which is quite an accomplishment and I even contacted his wife to let her know that.Yes there is no doubt We don't care for eeach other but John does have a lot of talent but he always has an angle to destroy everything with his ego. Why couldn't he just jump on any table and put regular cloth or 860 simonis on it and not cheat? simply put he cant do it. John stated he wanted to help pool and always complains about everything but he hasn't helped anything concerning this and that's bothersome to many people.
 

wrldpro

H.RUN 311/Diamond W.R.
Silver Member
No doubt about John being only for John.

why is 760 'cheating' and 860 not? I really see a lot of the detail nitpicking as highly petty.

If he was going for a speed record, he sure as shit wouldn't have attempted into a headwind, it stands to reason the conditions were as favorable as possible, but the allegations of doctored equipment are more unproven than the 626, so why do people keep spouting them as fact?

Johns history is to take shortcuts and cheat. The table he ran his 400 on at Q-masters was a doctored table as the slate was sanded down and rounded over at the pockets.
760 makes the pockets really loose as it helps the balls to slide in on missed shots even easier than any other cloth.
Heated slate creates more speed and looseness of the pockets also.

Need educated anymore?
I only had retailed stores for 20 years and sold 15000 tables. Not to also count the many thousands and thousands of recovering and restoration of tables.
 

Meucciplayer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So - what cloth did Mosconi achieve his record on? I am pretty sure it wasn't 860 (was that around at the time? Didn't check).

I suppose it was Mali or some other REALLY slow cloth.

So - the same arguments can be made against ANY new cloth. Add the new balls, the Revo and ... and ....

Yes, I always put a mental asterisk on any record that has been broken after 20, 30 years. Because things have certainly changed quite a lot. Jesse Owens did not have the training equipment and nutrition they have nowadays. So his record can't really be compared ... yes, true in a way. Still, the guys nowadays are so much faster. Which does not make Jesse's record smaller, IMHO.
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lou do you really see anything wrong here with all the variables.
760 Simonis ( what 14.1 tournament or any event has ever been played on 760 except snooker)
Heated slates ( only on 3 cushion Billiard tables)
Removal and polishing of the balls ( not in any tournament ever but at the beginning of the match so the players would have to compensate and adjust to the condition as the match went along)
video and live stream for every run John has ever had but no unedited video of the 626
exactly 100 balls over Mosconis 526
Claim of highest exhibition run. Whats considered and Exhibition
Cranfields Exhibition run was 768 whats the difference

I'm completely dumbfounded by the sheer number of people that belong to a pool/billiards site that seem to have no idea how:

Frequently polished balls will separate like a hot knife through butter compared to a rack of balls that haven't been cleaned but once before the opening break shot.

The 760 will allow balls to roll further a with less effort and allow balls to drop that would normally stand up.

A heater under the table can be an advantage


IMO, just those three things can make a good run look like a great run.



I have a friend that plays 14.1 and he "use to" think all that stuff didn't matter until I didn't let him clean the balls but one time....before the opening break.

His high run is usually around 40ish on most days. Anyways, the day I ask him to not use the ball cleaner/polish at all....lol.....he wasn't a happy camper...why?

Well, after a couple hours of play the balls stopped opening up as easy in the break and secondary breaks.

All of a sudden l, he wasn't 14.1 crazy....he was just crazy....as I am when the damn balls refuse to separate no matter how hard you hit em...

Not to mention, he missed a TON of his break shots because he wasn't able to use a moderate stroke speed. He was having to hammer the rack and it caused him to miss a very large percentage of his break shots.

He's a believer now.

If some of the people in this thread would go to the table and do the same, well, a lot of this threads post would be different.

Jeff
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Johns history is to take shortcuts and cheat. The table he ran his 400 on at Q-masters was a doctored table as the slate was sanded down and rounded over at the pockets.
760 makes the pockets really loose as it helps the balls to slide in on missed shots even easier than any other cloth.
Heated slate creates more speed and looseness of the pockets also.

Need educated anymore?
I only had retailed stores for 20 years and sold 15000 tables. Not to also count the many thousands and thousands of recovering and restoration of tables.

Don't bother trying to educate BB. It's a lost cause.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't bother trying to educate BB. It's a lost cause.

Bobby knows I can't be helped. :eek:

Again, many of the details you highlight are marginal gains which are learned by participants over the course of time and all athletes at the top end take advantage of these small tweaks to better overall performance, irrespective of which sport is examined. I do not consider table modifications like sanding pockets to a down angle to be a reasonable tweak. Clean balls, I'd say am ok with.

Again, if conditions must be duplicated for a record to be considered beaten, there will be near 0 records broken.

Again, John's alleged achievement does nothing to the legacy of 526.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They'll continue to ignore applying the same standards to 526...and continue to acknowledge they are doing so.

So - what cloth did Mosconi achieve his record on? I am pretty sure it wasn't 860 (was that around at the time? Didn't check).

I suppose it was Mali or some other REALLY slow cloth.

So - the same arguments can be made against ANY new cloth. Add the new balls, the Revo and ... and ....

Yes, I always put a mental asterisk on any record that has been broken after 20, 30 years. Because things have certainly changed quite a lot. Jesse Owens did not have the training equipment and nutrition they have nowadays. So his record can't really be compared ... yes, true in a way. Still, the guys nowadays are so much faster. Which does not make Jesse's record smaller, IMHO.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is a bunch of caca BS for sure. John has tried on a oversized 8 ft. and couldn't get anywhere with it. If he could have he would have. I don't know of or ever heard of any run on an 8ft. table over 300 ever. If its that easy go ahead and have John try. The reason John says its easier because his ego has to do that. As a person that has run over 300 its much harder. who is Shane Tyree anyways? The BCA is nothing now


I also thought the comment about running balls on a 4' x 8' being easier were some what self-serving and perhaps more to denigrate Mosconi's run than anything else.

Lou Figueroa
 

nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
This is a bunch of caca BS for sure. John has tried on a oversized 8 ft. and couldn't get anywhere with it. If he could have he would have. I don't know of or ever heard of any run on an 8ft. table over 300 ever. If its that easy go ahead and have John try. The reason John says its easier because his ego has to do that. As a person that has run over 300 its much harder. who is Shane Tyree anyways? The BCA is nothing now

It is really hard to reply to all of your posts.

No pros capable of a high run play pool for extended periods of time on 8 foot tables. There is no reason to. No serious form of pool is played on 8 foot tables. Danny even said he didn't have access to them. Do you play regularly on 8 foot tables? Or do you avoid them because they are too hard to play straight pool on as you say? John had said he would move down to an 8 foot table if he didn't break 526 on a 9 foot table in a certain period of time.

626 would be the highest run on video for any size table. He also ran 490 on a live stream witnessed by maybe 1k people. Would you not consider that an exhibition run? As word spread that he was over 400, the numbers kept climbing.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are one of a few strong objectors that has maintained rationality about the matter, given your consistent position that you'll reserve final judgement until the vid is released.

To claim one has to have achieved a certain skill level to make judgement on the matter isn't in line with that.


Sorry but that's the way I feel when someone posts: what's the big deal about polishing the balls frequently during a run; or so what about the cloth; or so what about the table being heated; or so what if he committed fouls; or so what if he picked up the CB.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. It's the same as the guys who say 14.1 is boring or who think Efren could give Mosconi a run for his money.

Lou Figueroa
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
Wait.. this is like an addiction to grocery store novels, reality TV, or internet arguing. Damnit! They got me. Who wants to talk about space instead? Meet me in the test area
 
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nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
Sorry but that's the way I feel when someone posts: what's the big deal about polishing the balls frequently during a run; or so what about the cloth; or so what about the table being heated; or so what if he committed fouls; or so what if he picked up the CB.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. It's the same as the guys who say 14.1 is boring or who think Efren could give Mosconi a run for his money.

Lou Figueroa

Was Mosconi's exhibition run all ball fouls? Did everyone sign something stating he did not brush a ball or foul in any other way during the run? If not, then there is no way to prove that those things did not happen yet you want to take a week to dissect John's run in slow motion trying to prove it wasn't legitimate.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry but that's the way I feel when someone posts: what's the big deal about polishing the balls frequently during a run; or so what about the cloth; or so what about the table being heated; or so what if he committed fouls; or so what if he picked up the CB.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. It's the same as the guys who say 14.1 is boring or who think Efren could give Mosconi a run for his money.

Lou Figueroa
A. I don't think discussion that remains rational/ civil needs apologies. We're here to discuss pool and that's what we are doing.

2- I agree with you that anything approaching full acceptance of 626 is going to require the vid being released in some public manner.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was Mosconi's exhibition run all ball fouls? Did everyone sign something stating he did not brush a ball or foul in any other way during the run? If not, then there is no way to prove that those things did not happen yet you want to take a week to dissect John's run in slow motion trying to prove it wasn't legitimate.

A lotta unknowns that werent concerns for decades, aren't there?
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving... Haven't stopped by AZB for a couple days, come back and BOOM, 5 more pages, all flogging the same deceased equine :deadhorse::deadhorse:

If Mr. Wilson were still around, this would have been closed a long time ago, heh heh. However, it appears this will keep on, keepin' on for some time.

Funny stuff. Carry on, boys.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was Mosconi's exhibition run all ball fouls? Did everyone sign something stating he did not brush a ball or foul in any other way during the run? If not, then there is no way to prove that those things did not happen yet you want to take a week to dissect John's run in slow motion trying to prove it wasn't legitimate.


Well, I wasn't really trying to draw a direct line between Mosconi's run and JS'.

I was really talking about how, in general, most 14.1 players feel about the game and its tenets. But OK, let's talk about Mosconi.

Mosconi was a 15 time world champion. He played in an era during which the players wore tuxedos and 14.1 was held in such high regard that tournament results made the front page of newspapers. And in that milieu, the rules of the game were considered the rules, with referees to call all fouls. IOWs, Mosconi spent a career abiding by a strict code of conduct, behavior, and play. Fouls were not something to be committed or ignored.

There are several of us here that saw Mosconi play, albeit in an exhibition, and I'll go out on a limb and say that to a man they will all agree with the following: Every time I saw Mosconi he would always run at least 100. He would always be dressed in coat and tie. When shooting over a ball or using a mechanical bridge he always took care to not foul. When reaching out over the table, he would always button his jacket to avoid fouling any balls. I never saw Mosconin pick up the CB during a run. And, he never had the balls cleaned (either by hand, much less in a ball polisher), during a run. And on the night he ran the 526 he had a referee (and a racker) watching. He also had an audience that, given the time frame, was probably knowledgeable about 14.1 and it's traditions. Lastly, Mosconi was representing the Brunswick Corporation and knew he had to represent the game at the highest of standards in his play and conduct.

So in my book, Mosconi gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those issues.

Now, I have also watched many of JS' runs, during some of which he has fouled, picked up the CB, twisted the rack, and put the balls in a ball polisher mid-run. There is also the issue of how he went about this whole thing, going at it for months at a time rather than walking into a strange pool room and doing it on a single attempt in front of a paying audience, but I digress.

In my mind, the bottomline is: JS does not get the benefit of the doubt and we gotta go to the tape.

Lou Figueroa
 
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nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
Well, I wasn't really trying to draw a direct line between Mosconi's run and JS'.

I was really talking about how, in general, most 14.1 players feel about the game and its tenets. But OK, let's talk about Mosconi.

Mosconi was a 15 time world champion. He played in an era during which the players wore tuxedos and 14.1 was held in such high regard that tournament results made the front page of newspapers. And in that milieu, the rules of the game were considered the rules, with referees to call all fouls. IOWs, Mosconi spent a career abiding by a strict code of conduct, behavior, and play. Fouls were not something to be committed or ignored.

There are several of us here that saw Mosconi play, albeit in an exhibition, and I'll go out on a limb and say that to a man they will all agree with the following: Every time I saw Mosconi he would always run at least 100. He would always be dressed in coat and tie. When shooting over a ball or using a mechanical bridge he always took care to not foul. When reaching out over the table, he would always button his jacket to avoid fouling any balls. I never saw Mosconin pick up the CB during a run. And, he never had the balls cleaned (either by hand, much less in a ball polisher), during a run. And on the night he ran the 526 he had a referee (and a racker) watching. He also had an audience that, given the time frame, was probably knowledgeable about 14.1 and it's traditions. Lastly, Mosconi was representing the Brunswick Corporation and knew he had to represent the game at the highest of standards in his play and conduct.

So in my book, Mosconi gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those issues.

Now, I have also watched many of JS' runs, during some of which he has fouled, picked up the CB, and put the balls in a ball polisher mid-run. There is also the issue of how he went about this whole thing, going at it for months at a time rather than walking into a strange pool room and doing it on a single attempt in front of a paying audience, but I digress.

In my mind, the bottomline is: JS does not get the benefit of the doubt and we gotta go to the tape.

Lou Figueroa

Thank you for the nice post. I rarely play straight pool but enjoy the conversation. When you saw Mosconi play in exhibitions, did he normally keep running balls after the match was over or stop?

Are you saying that Mosconi never ended up with the cue ball in the rack so it had to go back to the kitchen? If so, would he or the referee have cleaned it at that point?
 

nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
Where's the ball counter and rack counter? Moving a coin around the table diamonds? You can only go to 18 racks without lapping. How was the lapping tallied? Any of those viewers commented and counted the racks and actual balls? Likely not. I saw no actual ball counter on any of the attempts. Not one person alive to admit that they actually saw the run from 0-626 continuously. Does anyone think that Shane Tyree and Rob Johnson of the BCA actually vetted the video, or interviewed the signers of the affidavit, to answer any of these questions prior to certification? Does anyone actually think that the BCA has shown this video to any of it's membership for comment, prior to or during the vetting of the video? And, you wonder why there are Doubting Thomas'.

If you can't tell when a person has made one or two laps around the table, then I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you are going to question the integrity of every person who has seen the video. Whatever makes you happy.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you can't tell when a person has made one or two laps around the table, then I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you are going to question the integrity of every person who has seen the video. Whatever makes you happy.

L
O
L

You got ahead of him. He hasn't even begun to question the integrity, knowledge, vision, sleeping habits, cell phone ping data, etc... Of those who attended private viewings.

Easier to throw out unfounded accusations than to actually go see the vid.
 
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