Is strength required for certain shots??

magicrat69210

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just wondering what some of u instructors thought about strength playing a factor in situations where u have to hit the ball hard and are not on the cleanest newest cloth.....for instance if one were 7 diamonds away from the object ball and wanted to draw back an 8 diamond length diagonally across the table.....do yall think a certain amount of strength is required that might prevent a diminutive or non athletic person from performing such a shot?? All of your opinions are welcome and appreciated
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
Not so much strength, but timing, cue tip placement and proper cue tip speed.

Ever watch Santos Sambajon play? He must weigh 120 pounds soaking wet, but has all the stroke he needs.

Just wondering what some of u instructors thought about strength playing a factor in situations where u have to hit the ball hard and are not on the cleanest newest cloth.....for instance if one were 7 diamonds away from the object ball and wanted to draw back an 8 diamond length diagonally across the table.....do yall think a certain amount of strength is required that might prevent a diminutive or non athletic person from performing such a shot?? All of your opinions are welcome and appreciated
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
just have a look at some of the female chinese players - see what they re able to do with their cue ☺ good example ☺

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Colonel

Living The Dream
Silver Member
No, you're confusing a powerful fluid stroke with strength. They're not the same thing.
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In one sentence: Powerful stroke actually means speed and precision at impact.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
One can have a powerful stroke but with no control.

Precision of tip placement & type of stroke can maximize the efficiency of less power.

Knowing what to do & the technique to do it can yield very very good results.

All that any a 110 LB. individual would probably ever need.

Best Wishes to ALL.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think strength does play a role sometimes. Mike Massey's famous 6-rail draw shot comes to my mind. I asked him to perform it one day and he borrowed my cue and hit the ball so hard that he knocked the tip right off the cue. That wasn't just timing. That was brute force.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
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I think strength does play a role sometimes. Mike Massey's famous 6-rail draw shot comes to my mind. I asked him to perform it one day and he borrowed my cue and hit the ball so hard that he knocked the tip right off the cue. That wasn't just timing. That was brute force.

That's why I put that word "probably" in my last sentence, Fran.:wink:

You ALL Stay Well,
Rick
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't necessarily think "strength" is required to play the game, but a "powerful stroke" is needed for some shots...especially on slow tables and long draw shots. A powerful stroke requires precision and accurate timing.

A person's style of play sometimes makes their game look to be more "powerful" than another person's style. If the player uses a lot of center-ball, stun-type shots to move around the table for position, rather than spin, it requires the cue ball to be hit harder.

I think that is one of the differences in old-school style of play and new-school.

Today, tables have faster cloth, faster rails, and most places are air conditioned. A couple of decades ago, that was the exception, not the norm. In those days, you had to "muscle" the ball around the table a lot more than you do today.

I think players today play more of a "finesse spin-type" game than a "muscle" game. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they are two distinct styles.
 
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Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a friend who is into his amateur power lifting somewhat. Big guy, very explosive muscle fibers.. Not your typical looking snooker player. He can draw the ball more than anyone I've ever witnessed. I remember him drawing the cue ball from the baulk line with a red hanging over the black corner pocket. He hit it as hard as he could, the white spun back into baulk and back out almost to the blue spot. That's like a 16-17ft draw shot on a table that wasn't anywhere near as quick or reactive as the ones you see on TV. That is his party piece. Sometimes he nails it, sometimes he miscued. It's more power and draw than you could ever need. I've never once looked down that shot he performs and wished I had that cue power.... It simply isn't needed (but it looks cool).

My answer is strength isn't a necessity for cue sports. Technique is far more important. An unusual amount of fast twitch muscle fibers doesn't mean strength but they certainly help with generating cue speed which should help with hitting with more power whilst keeping solid technique.
 

EddieBme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't necessarily think "strength" is required to play the game, but a "powerful stroke" is needed for some shots...especially on slow tables and long draw shots. A powerful stroke requires precision and accurate timing.

A person's style of play sometimes makes their game look to be more "powerful" than another person's style. If the player uses a lot of center-ball, stun-type shots to move around the table for position, rather than spin, it requires the cue ball to be hit harder.

I think that is one of the differences in old-school style of play and new-school.

Today, tables have faster cloth, faster rails, and most places are air conditioned. A couple of decades ago, that was the exception, not the norm. In those days, you had to "muscle" the ball around the table a lot more than you do today.

I think players today play more of a "finesse spin-type" game than a "muscle" game. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they are two distinct styles.

I used to play on bar tables with the over size magnetic cue ball, damp tables, old heavy cloth etc., so I did picked the habit of feeling like I needed to "pound" the cue ball for most of the shots....I still have that habit, (to a certain extent).
 

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?
Silver Member
I agree with everyone else in that accuracy and timing is pretty all you need, but there are a few rare players out there like Mike Massey and Larry Nevel who have accuracy, timing AND strength which allows them to do amazing things with the cue ball.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a friend who is into his amateur power lifting somewhat. Big guy, very explosive muscle fibers.. Not your typical looking snooker player. He can draw the ball more than anyone I've ever witnessed. I remember him drawing the cue ball from the baulk line with a red hanging over the black corner pocket. He hit it as hard as he could, the white spun back into baulk and back out almost to the blue spot. That's like a 16-17ft draw shot on a table that wasn't anywhere near as quick or reactive as the ones you see on TV. That is his party piece. Sometimes he nails it, sometimes he miscued. It's more power and draw than you could ever need. I've never once looked down that shot he performs and wished I had that cue power.... It simply isn't needed (but it looks cool).

My answer is strength isn't a necessity for cue sports. Technique is far more important. An unusual amount of fast twitch muscle fibers doesn't mean strength but they certainly help with generating cue speed which should help with hitting with more power whilst keeping solid technique.

I agree. You only need enough strength to move the cue forward, and it only weighs about 19 ounces. It's all about fast twitch muscle fiber. The faster you can move the cue, the more spin you can get on the cb. Some people genetically have more fast twitch fiber than most do. It can be increased to a certain extent.
 

Bob Jewett

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I agree. You only need enough strength to move the cue forward, and it only weighs about 19 ounces. It's all about fast twitch muscle fiber. The faster you can move the cue, the more spin you can get on the cb. Some people genetically have more fast twitch fiber than most do. It can be increased to a certain extent.
Yes. Muscles and timing allow you to get the cue stick into the cue ball at a faster speed. The more speed you can achieve in your comfort zone, the more tough shots are within your comfort zone, and the more within your comfort zone the rest of the shots are.

If you play perfect position, less strength is required because you always have the best angle to move on to the next shot. When you get out of line, having controlled power can rescue you.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes. Muscles and timing allow you to get the cue stick into the cue ball at a faster speed. The more speed you can achieve in your comfort zone, the more tough shots are within your comfort zone, and the more within your comfort zone the rest of the shots are.

If you play perfect position, less strength is required because you always have the best angle to move on to the next shot. When you get out of line, having controlled power can rescue you.

Bob, I don't mean to nitpick, but I don't really like the word "strength" when talking about speed. Most people hear "strength" and automatically think of how much weight one can lift. One is stronger than the other.

While it is still the muscles, speed is not about strength, but about how fast the muscle can contract. In the case of pool, where one only needs to move a cue stick forward, how strong someone is, is really irrelevant. It's about how fast they can contract their muscles.

Here's a little article about it for those that don't know about it. https://www.verywell.com/fast-and-slow-twitch-muscle-fibers-3120094
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob,Dr. Dave, or Cornerman, maybe you can correct me if I am wrong on this....

I believe that strength is actually detrimental to how much draw one can achieve. Hitting the cb hard, which requires strength to do, gives the cb a tremendous forward force. That force must be overcome before the cb can even start to come back with draw.

Now, on a dead center hit of the ob, the forward force of the cb is transferred directly to the ob. The cb stops dead and then friction takes over and moves the cb accordingly to how much spin is on it. (this can be shown with the old penny trick of slamming one penny into another on a table top.)

However, on an angled shot, the harder the cb is hit, the more the cb will travel down the tangent line before the spin can take affect. During that elongated time frame, spin is being lost, resulting in less draw.

If one were to hit the cb very fast, but not hard. Meaning, putting a lot of backspin on the cb with little forward force, the cb should draw farther than if it was hit hard with the same amount of backspin put on it. With the exception of a true dead center hit.

What I am getting at, is strength gives you direction force. Speed gives you rotational force. For max draw, rotational force is what you want.
 
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Bob Jewett

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Bob,Dr. Dave, or Cornerman, maybe you can correct me if I am wrong on this....

I believe that strength is actually detrimental to how much draw one can achieve. Hitting the cb hard, which requires strength to do, gives the cb a tremendous forward force. That force must be overcome before the cb can even start to come back with draw.

Now, on a dead center hit of the ob, the forward force of the cb is transferred directly to the ob. The cb stops dead and then friction takes over and moves the cb accordingly to how much spin is on it. (this can be shown with the old penny trick of slamming one penny into another on a table top.)

However, on an angled shot, the harder the cb is hit, the more the cb will travel down the tangent line before the spin can take affect. During that elongated time frame, spin is being lost, resulting in less draw.

If one were to hit the cb very fast, but not hard. Meaning, putting a lot of backspin on the cb with little forward force, the cb should draw farther than if it was hit hard with the same amount of backspin put on it. With the exception of a true dead center hit.

What I am getting at, is strength gives you direction force. Speed gives you rotational force. For max draw, rotational force is what you want.

The important thing for how much speed and spin you get on the cue ball is how fast the stick is moving at the instant of tip-to-ball contact. The ratio of spin to speed is determined almost completely by how far off center the tip hits the ball. That's what physics tells us and what we see in practice.

There is no "strength" in this analysis. If a very strong person and one with less strength but better timing both get the stick moving at the same speed and achieve the same contact point, they will get pretty much the same results.

It makes no sense, technically/physically to say "very fast, but not hard." I think you are referring to the "quality" of the draw. "Quality" is a technical term I got from a European Champion Artistic Billiards player. It means a high spin-to-speed ratio on the cue ball. This ratio is demonstrated in the Wagon Wheel Drill where the outbound angle of the cue ball is (or can be, if the cut angle is kept constant) determined entirely by the quality of the draw/follow.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
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The important thing for how much speed and spin you get on the cue ball is how fast the stick is moving at the instant of tip-to-ball contact. The ratio of spin to speed is determined almost completely by how far off center the tip hits the ball. That's what physics tells us and what we see in practice.

There is no "strength" in this analysis. If a very strong person and one with less strength but better timing both get the stick moving at the same speed and achieve the same contact point, they will get pretty much the same results.

It makes no sense, technically/physically to say "very fast, but not hard." I think you are referring to the "quality" of the draw. "Quality" is a technical term I got from a European Champion Artistic Billiards player. It means a high spin-to-speed ratio on the cue ball. This ratio is demonstrated in the Wagon Wheel Drill where the outbound angle of the cue ball is (or can be, if the cut angle is kept constant) determined entirely by the quality of the draw/follow.

I am glad I waited & you replied.
 
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