Is Such a Thing as A 1pocket Concept?

cuetechasaurus said:
What I really want to know is why you old-schoolers, who don't really play anymore, would want to keep the game of 1pocket from progressing to higher levels in the generations to come.
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I was going to post along these lines also:

Freddy, why would you spend so much time writing books on how to play better pool, but then claim there was some "secret" to the game that you didn't want anyone to know? It doesn't make sense. You are revered for your knowledge, why wouldn't you share it with everyone? Forget the people who will misunderstand it; if they don't understand it, then you haven't given them anything anyway. But don't deny your insight to everyone; I'm sure some of us are open-minded enough to understand you very well.

I'm not even much of a 1-pocket player, it's just that this idea of secrecy doesn't make any sense to me.

-Andrew
 
1 Pocket Concept

lfigueroa said:
Do you believe such a thing as a "1pocket Concept," as Freddy has alluded to, really exists?

Personally I'm not so sure. I think of all the 1pocket players I've talked to, the dozens of Accu-Stats tapes I watched, and my own experiences at the game, and I'm thinking this is a bunch of malarkey.

Two additional thoughts:

1. Wouldn't any such concept have to be tailored to account for the skills of the individual player, therefore making an overarching "concept" for the game invalid?

2. And, just as Efren changed any existing or supposed "concept" of 9ball, especially when it comes to kicking and safety play, hasn't he and others changed, updated, modernized any traditional "concept" of 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa
just wonderin'
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Every top player has his own "Concept", and what works for one may not work for another. Freddie says Artie would sell his "concept" for $30,000. Who wouldn't sell it to somebody who would buy it. I never had the opportunity to play or watch Artie play, but 30k? What worked for Artie may not work for me, so it would be $$ down the drain. Grady gives lessons, sells tapes and would glady share (and does) impart any one pocket knowledge he has to people who ask him. Does Grady have a secret "Concept' he is holding back? I have gambled with Grady years ago, and what he does/did better than any player I saw except Ronnie and Efren and probably the top one pocket players today, is think on his feet. He can create/invent a shot when he needs it. Ronnie did it and Efren still does. I have played one pocket for 40+ years and have a fairly good understanding of the game and my "Concept" changes as my abilities have changed because I can't execute the same anymore. My honest answer if you asked me how good I played for many years was " If you have a job , you can't beat me". I did back this up by playing. If you asked me today how I play, I would say - not bad for 67 years old. And anyone around that age (except Ronnie) can get played at Hard Times in Sacramento. John Henderson
 
[QUOTE
And anyone around that age (except Ronnie) can get played at Hard Times in Sacramento. John Henderson[/QUOTE]

I like to see u match up with `suirrel`who is 10 years older than u.It will be a learning experience and fun to watch the display of the ` older concepts` and we do not have to spend any money to buy the tapes to learn the `concepts`:cool:
 
Andrew Manning said:
I was going to post along these lines also:

Freddy, why would you spend so much time writing books on how to play better pool, but then claim there was some "secret" to the game that you didn't want anyone to know? It doesn't make sense. You are revered for your knowledge, why wouldn't you share it with everyone? Forget the people who will misunderstand it; if they don't understand it, then you haven't given them anything anyway. But don't deny your insight to everyone; I'm sure some of us are open-minded enough to understand you very well.

I'm not even much of a 1-pocket player, it's just that this idea of secrecy doesn't make any sense to me.

-Andrew
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It doesn't make sense to me either, Andrew. Everyone here, and on other forums, participates and tries to share their experience and knowledge -- if there's actually anything there to share in the first place ;-)

Lou Figueroa
dan't believe in
"The Concept"
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
Lou, can I get that next time we play? I'm still no good.

Alex
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Alex, I haven't been playing much 1pocket lately.

But I might give something up at 14.1 :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
jrhendy said:
Every top player has his own "Concept", and what works for one may not work for another. Freddie says Artie would sell his "concept" for $30,000. Who wouldn't sell it to somebody who would buy it. I never had the opportunity to play or watch Artie play, but 30k? What worked for Artie may not work for me, so it would be $$ down the drain. Grady gives lessons, sells tapes and would glady share (and does) impart any one pocket knowledge he has to people who ask him. Does Grady have a secret "Concept' he is holding back? I have gambled with Grady years ago, and what he does/did better than any player I saw except Ronnie and Efren and probably the top one pocket players today, is think on his feet. He can create/invent a shot when he needs it. Ronnie did it and Efren still does. I have played one pocket for 40+ years and have a fairly good understanding of the game and my "Concept" changes as my abilities have changed because I can't execute the same anymore. My honest answer if you asked me how good I played for many years was " If you have a job , you can't beat me". I did back this up by playing. If you asked me today how I play, I would say - not bad for 67 years old. And anyone around that age (except Ronnie) can get played at Hard Times in Sacramento. John Henderson
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Well, that's it, John. We all develop our own concept of the game and I think you've also got to have the flexibility to improvise and adjust it depending on the prevailing circumstances. And certainly, what works for one player might not have any possible chance of working for another player just because the skills sets are different, to say nothing of experience, probability assessment, disposition, and opponent.

Lou Figueroa
 
freddy the beard said:
Cuetechasaurus,
So far you are the only guy who posed your curiosity and interest into a palatable form. Not knocking, being disprespectful, or throwing digs. Because you approached the subject without an apparent selfish agenda, you were able to read a little deeper into what I have been aluding to. The only one, by the way. If you like, I will PM with you and go into the subject a little deeper. I will certainly give you enough to work with anyway.

Good luck,
the Beard
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Sure, sounds good to me. Thanks Freddy.
 
As a huge fan of Freddy's "BwtB" quintessential 1-pocket bible I believe/hope/expect he'll drop more of "The Concept" on the wanting public in subsequent years. We all apply are personal skill-sets to "Our Concept" of the way we approach the game.

Years ago I paid for lessons from a unnamed legend in LA. To make a long story short I found his style remarkably passive which only provided him a modicum of scoring opportunities. Now arguably the man's skills had diminished but once I determined that 80% of his game was about getting long straight back banks I simply threw ball(s) in the lane and taunted him will B+ level shots that he either didn't like taking or had programmed himself into believing were foolish. In short in a couple of days I gave him fits. Why because he couldn't execute. Once I realized "his hole" (couldn't make the long pot) I would adjust the stack and move balls with impunity...grab a advantage and ram it home.

I used to play competitive chess...it's largely the same without the execution element. You need to know all the moves and be well versed in all "the openings". Once you understand what is going on you act...counter act...get a small advantage...exchange pieces. It's not much different. You trade pieces for position. You trade position of pieces. You have a advantage and it becomes bombs away. Now add the element of execution and you can see why people get addicted to this game. One Pocket. The crack cocaine of pool.

Ask yourself this. How strong is Efren's chess game?

Nick

PS Freddy please write another book (or two) before you become a senile. :D
 
> I would very much like to be educated on this "concept" as well,it may very well be the missing piece of the puzzle in my 1-hole game. Freddy,if you are at all interested,let me know. Tommy D.
 
Lou,

I'm one of the old guys that pushed the balls up table in one pocket when we played at C&C, and I certainly had no specific concept as to how the game was supposed to transpire. We played several times and I don't remember ever beating you at one pocket even when getting a ball.

I'm in StL tonight and am taking you up on your offer to play 11 to 7. Where do you want to play, what time, and for how much? Me thinks your hyperbolic woofing/challenge that you can't get played by one of the old timers has an odor of b.s. Will even negotiate a slightly smaller spot as I believe you are off the mark here. Care to prove me wrong?

PM sent.
 
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I thnk alot of people have there own concept of the game,some right and some wrong but most importantly i think it needs to be effective,playing percentages,Efren plays percentages great.Now Efrens concept is different then some others do to his shotmaking and other abilities,i mean what is a low percentage shot for some is high percentage for Efren so i guess you could say his concept is different.There are different ways to run balls, pattern play and concepts,its what works the best for you and your game IMO.Look at straight pool,Irving Crane was a grinder and would normally shoot a few and play safe,not taking many chances,Steve Mizerak won a straight pool title averaging 25 balls an inning i think,then you have other straight pool players who run and run some more taking chances.I dont believe i have been playing the game long enough nor with a high enough caliber of a 1 pocket player to really know the concept but would love to know it and implement what i can into my game.Just one question Freddy,well two,first did Jersey Red have the the concept and second does Ray Martin have the straight pool concept?
 
Love The Game said:
Lou,

I'm one of the old guys that pushed the balls up table in one pocket when we played at C&C, and I certainly had no specific concept as to how the game was supposed to transpire. We played several times and I don't remember ever beating you at one pocket even when getting a ball.

I'm in StL tonight and am taking you up on your offer to play 11 to 7. Where do you want to play, what time, and for how much? Me thinks your hyperbolic woofing/challenge that you can't get played by one of the old timers has an odor of b.s. Will even negotiate a slightly smaller spot as I believe you are off the mark here. Care to prove me wrong?

PM sent.
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lol, nice try.

Here's what I said:
"I was taught 1pocket by some old guys who taught me a lot of good stuff and some bad stuff."

If I was giving you a ball when we played, then you certainly weren't one of them guys. You sound more like a nut artist, formerly from up north -- with a real bad memory -- though I may be mistaken about that.

So as far as any odor, tell me who you are, and then we'll see who gets proved wrong ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
lol, nice try.

Here's what I said:
"I was taught 1pocket by some old guys who taught me a lot of good stuff and some bad stuff."

If I was giving you a ball when we played, then you certainly weren't one of them guys. You sound more like a nut artist, formerly from up north -- with a real bad memory -- though I may be mistaken about that.

So as far as any odor, tell me who you are, and then we'll see who gets proved wrong ;-)

Lou Figueroa
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Oh wait a minute, I think I just figured this out -- this isn't the guy (younger than moi, by the way) who stormed out of the pool room like a nit the last time we played because he lost a set for something like $100, is it, Ron?

Lou Figueroa
 
Freddie!....all the years of you playing with the big dogs, and you never sat down to discuss the finer points of 14.1 with a champ? Coming from the north east I have had the chancce to watch many of the greats in my generation up close, not to mention rack for em!;)

Is there a secret society where the info is passed down with a blood oath? I'm not sure, but there is a definative family tree from world beater to world beater!

I've been taught by some great players, and they all may play a little different, but follow the same basic rules of what NOT to do. I'm a firm believer in the school of what NOT to do in 14.1 which I feel is more important than what TO do.

Gerry
 
The elusive 1P philosophy

I think it’s easy to confuse concept with strategy; strategy with tactics; and tactics with shot choice. Most players would agree that in one-pocket the key is to not leave your opponent a shot at his hole until you have a good shot at your own. Or perhaps always keep something moving towards your hole without selling out a shot to your opponent. However I’ve always believed that certain players have an overall philosophy of one-pocket that dictates which type of shots and moves should be taken at any given time. And somehow that general sense is tried and true, and learned by a few only after many years of study and experience.

For example when I watch a video of two top players, and Ervolino comments that the guy took the wrong shot, and that he should have done X, regardless of the fact that the guy made what looked like a good shot. And Squirrel being quoted several times in the Robin books, saying after a good illustrated shot by a top player, “Oh no, I definitely would have done so and so.”

Anyway I get the sense that these guys, and a few others of their ilk, know something quite beyond shots and strategies. That there is a one-pocket philosophy that I’m not privy to. It’s difficult to discuss something one doesn’t possess. I don’t think we’re going to get any answers here. But I do think there is a higher dimension in one-pocket.

Doc
 
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gulfportdoc said:
I think it’s easy to confuse concept with strategy; strategy with tactics; and tactics with shot choice. Most players would agree that in one-pocket the key is to not leave your opponent a shot at his hole until you have a good shot at your own. Or perhaps always keep something moving towards your hole without selling out a shot to your opponent. However I’ve always believed that certain players have an overall philosophy of one-pocket that dictates which type of shots and moves should be taken at any given time. And somehow that general sense is tried and true, and learned by a few only after many years of study and experience.

For example when I watch a video of two top players, and Ervolino comments that the guy took the wrong shot, and that he should have done X, regardless of the fact that the guy made what looked like a good shot. And Squirrel being quoted several times in the Robin books, saying after a good illustrated shot by a top player, “Oh no, I definitely would have done so and so.”

Anyway I get the sense that these guys, and a few others of their ilk, know something quite beyond shots and strategies. That there is a one-pocket philosophy that I’m not privy to. It’s difficult to discuss something one doesn’t possess. I don’t think we’re going to get any answers here. But I do think there is a higher dimension in one-pocket.

Doc
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Good points Doc! Have you seen the Efren vs. Grady one pocket on you tube? The beginning sequence is amazing Efren puts Grady back in the same spot like three shots in a row it's a thing of beauty and it made me think of something Freddy told me years ago pertaining to the game. He said find the spot your opponent doesn't like to be then keep putting him there. Philw
 
Multiple replies

For brevity, I am going to reply to several posts from this thread all on this one post.

Tommy D, I would very much like to be educated on this "concept" as well,it may very well be the missing piece of the puzzle in my 1-hole game. Freddy,if you are at all interested,let me know.

Tommy, not to appear disrespectful, but I would also very much like to have access to your safe deposit box, but why would you give it to me? Just kidding.

Fast Lenny, Just one question Freddy, well two, first did Jersey Red have the 1pkt concept and second does Ray Martin have the straight pool concept?

The answer is yes to both questions.

Gerry, Freddie!....all the years of you playing with the big dogs, and you never sat down to discuss the finer points of 14.1 with a champ? Coming from the north east I have had the chance to watch many of the greats in my generation up close, not to mention rack for em! Is there a secret society where the info is passed down with a blood oath?...

Because I was a "short-game" hustler, and since there was little financial reward in straight pool, I never pursued the concept dilegently enough. I have spent plenty of time around great 14.1 players, but truthfully, for whatever reason, I never "got" it. The light bulb never turned on. For example, I had Joe Procita teaching me for weeks. "Shoot this shot. Shoot that break shot. etc." With him withholding the real "goodness" it was an exercise in futility. Compare that to Gene Skinner who took me all the way under his wing (he was totally retired at the time), and in a week my 1pkt game went up 8 to 6 immediately. It's maybe not a secret society, but certainly some type of Alumnus.

Gulfportdoc, The elusive 1P philosophy I think it's easy to confuse concept with strategy; strategy with tactics; and tactics with shot choice. ..I've always believed that certain players have an overall philosophy of one-pocket that dictates which type of shots and moves should be taken at any given time... that general sense is tried and true, and learned by a few only after many years of study and experience. For example when I watch a video... and Ervolino comments that the guy took the wrong shot... regardless of the fact that the guy made what looked like a good shot. And Squirrel being quoted several times in the Robin books, saying after a good illustrated shot by a top player, "Oh no, I definitely would have done so and so." ...I get the sense that these guys...know something quite beyond shots and strategies. That there is a one-pocket philosophy that I'm not privy to. It's difficult to discuss something one doesn't possess. I don't think we're going to get any answers here. But I do think there is a higher dimension in one-pocket.

Finally, some clear, intelligent observations by the Doc. Someone who has taken the time to look beyond the obvious.


the Beard
 
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one pocket concepts
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Freddy
upon reading the last couple of threads. I just have to pipe in. I've been playing one pocket for about 3-4 years. In the last year or two, I've started to get quite a collection of accu stats tapes, instuctional tapes (Gradys stuff, also billy incordona's tape) and any books or written stuff about the game. Basically because I wanted to really learn the game. I know the best way to learn is to start playing with guys that know the game, so being from Michigan I started going down to Hall of Fame and started watching and playing anyone I could. Anyway to make a long story short I found someone in the know and suddenly the light bulbs popped on!!!!!!!!! Stuff like leaving your opponite up table, blocking banking lanes, leaving problem clusters near their hole, all kinds of stuff like that. Once I started learning this stuff (and granted I've only barely scatched the surface) I started really watching and more importantly listening to the commentary on my accu stats tapes. You with out a doubt do the best job commentating on those matches, even if it's a boring match I still picked up stuff just listening. So my thumbs up to you. I guess reading all the trash talk kind of irritated me. Anyway keep up the good work
Mike L
 
mikeridethe9 said:
one pocket concepts
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Freddy
upon reading the last couple of threads. I just have to pipe in. I've been playing one pocket for about 3-4 years. In the last year or two, I've started to get quite a collection of accu stats tapes, instuctional tapes (Gradys stuff, also billy incordona's tape) and any books or written stuff about the game. Basically because I wanted to really learn the game. I know the best way to learn is to start playing with guys that know the game, so being from Michigan I started going down to Hall of Fame and started watching and playing anyone I could. Anyway to make a long story short I found someone in the know and suddenly the light bulbs popped on!!!!!!!!! Stuff like leaving your opponite up table, blocking banking lanes, leaving problem clusters near their hole, all kinds of stuff like that. Once I started learning this stuff (and granted I've only barely scatched the surface) I started really watching and more importantly listening to the commentary on my accu stats tapes. You with out a doubt do the best job commentating on those matches, even if it's a boring match I still picked up stuff just listening. So my thumbs up to you. I guess reading all the trash talk kind of irritated me. Anyway keep up the good work
Mike L
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Tap! tap! tap!
 
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