Is Such a Thing as A 1pocket Concept?

[lfigueroa]

Is There Such a Thing as a 1pocket Concept?

Do you believe such a thing as a "1pocket Concept," as Freddy has alluded to, really exists?

Personally I'm not so sure. I think of all the 1pocket players I've talked to, the dozens of Accu-Stats tapes I watched, and my own experiences at the game, and I'm thinking this is a bunch of malarkey.

Two additional thoughts:

1. Wouldn't any such concept have to be tailored to account for the skills of the individual player, therefore making an overarching "concept" for the game invalid?

2. And, just as Efren changed any existing or supposed "concept" of 9ball, especially when it comes to kicking and safety play, hasn't he and others changed, updated, modernized any traditional "concept" of 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa
just wonderin'

 

[T-dog]

1. Wouldn't any such concept have to be tailored to account for the skills of the individual player, therefore making an overarching "concept" for the game invalid?

Lou Figueroa
just wonderin'

What you trying to stir up Lou? I think you are right as stated above. There are shots that may be the "right shot" but without the necessary three cushion experience, its not the "right shot" for me.

 

[hardluckjones]

When "Freddy the Beard" gives advice on one pocket, I put my hands behind my ears and listen carefully.

 

[John Barton]

Yes, it's called the 8 and out principle. Beat people to the shot and shoot their nuts off. Otherwise known as Buddy's Move.

 

[lfigueroa]

What you trying to stir up Lou? I think you are right as stated above. There are shots that may be the "right shot" but without the necessary three cushion experience, its not the "right shot" for me.

T-dog, I'm not trying to stir up anything. I love 1pocket and Freddy's comments in the Buddy Hall/1pocket Player thread got me interested. He said:
"Shannon and Varner? Even though Shannon has an important piece of the "concept" that Nicky doesnt have, Nick is a tremendous favorite."

And:
"Re Cliff Joyner: When playing weak players and giving up monster spots Cliff employs the "concept" perfectly. It's only when playing the top, top, guys his speed (Efren, Duel, Frost etc.) does he deviate and abandon the pure form of the concept, mistakenly thinking it doesnt apply when playing against monsters."

And now that I think of it, it that same post he says:
"As far as Efren, keep in mind he learned the game from me, and I made sure I taught him many bad things purposely..."

Now about that last, Freddy talks about teaching Efren like Efren is some sort of dufus that has had his head in the sand since leaving Freddy's joint and never learned anything after Freddy passed on the news, with those few "bad things" sprinkled in. Like Efren ain't figured the "bad things" from the get go.

I was taught 1pocket by some old guys who taught me a lot of good stuff and some bad stuff. But over the years, being a reasonably intelligent player, I started coming to my own conclusions about the game. I threw some stuff that they taught me out, I learned new things, and I created some of my own ideas based upon my own strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes. The guys that taught me are still the ones who think playing 1pocket constitutes bunting all the balls up table, or never shooting at your hole unless you have the stone cold nuts. I now offer those guys 11-7 and they won't play.

So I'm not trying to "stir" anything up -- Freddy does know a lot, but I personally think he's off base on this one and thought it would make for a good discussion.

Lou Figueroa

 

[John Barton]

Here's the concept. Lock up the cueball no matter what until you have a clear shot and run all the balls.

I am serious here. If what Freddy says is true about the one pocket concept he says that Joyner employs then that's it.

Cliff will give up a monster spot and take fouls until the cows come home to not give up a shot. When he gets a shot he will run all the open balls and freeze the cueball to the back of a ball facing his hole. Then he will take more fouls if he has to.

I know, I have played Cliff like this many times getting 10:4 11:4 and never had a chance. By the time I FINALLY got a halfway decent shot at the hole I was so scared to take it that I would miss by a diamond and sell out.

He probably figures that same tactic won't work against better players. I don't know. I have seen him do the same thing with Durbin who isn't a weak player.

Anyway, I figure that's the concept. Freddy being all secretive won't tell us unless he puts it in book 3.

Now, Freddy, why would you purposely teach Efren the wrong things? And Effie, how strong is he to have overcome the deliberate misinformation.

Whatever the "concept" is. Efren OWNS it.

 

[freddy the beard]

"Teaching" Efren the wrong thing

....Now, Freddy, why would you purposely teach Efren the wrong things? And Effie, how strong is he to have overcome the deliberate misinformation.

Whatever the "concept" is. Efren OWNS it.

Let me clear this up a little. First, Efren didnt take lessons from me. He played and gambled with me every day instead. Secondly, I quickly determined that Efren was some kind of a genius, as I soon realized that he was draining info at an amazing rate while we played. I was also paranoid enough to see that he just didnt want to learn shots and moves, like most players, but he was seeking a foundation and inner understanding of the game. I think I could actually feel him probing into my brain when I was trying to solve a 1pkt situation. To defend against that, when a really difficult situation arose, when I could feel him surreptitiously analyzing my thinking processes, I would sometimes purposely take the wrong path. This way he would think that he had found the info all by himself and it gave the tainted concept more validity. It's quite different from me telling him what to do, whereby he may have reason to question my honesty. And since this occurred when Effie was building his 1pkt foundation, I still believe some of the mis-concepts are so deep-seated that he still sometimes falls prey to them. Unfortunately for his opponents, he has so much talent and ability, and is so much better than his opposition, that those minor flaws dont show up to make a significant difference.

the Beard

 

[ShootingArts]

the concept

The one pocket concept is to make moves to better your position or pocket a few balls while keeping the other player tied in knots Joyner style. The problem is that Corey D came through a field of over 400 players to place second at a recent DDC using a much more aggressive style. Efren has won big events when he was not using the one pocket concept effectively also. When he strongly incorporated the one pocket concept into his awesome cue ball control in 2006 at the DCC he was unbelievable in the semi's and finals which are on Accu-Stats.

The "one pocket concept" has been altered a bit in the past by winners who didn't play the traditional game. Unfortunately, I think that Efren's play and in some respects even more so, Cory's, may change the way one pocket is played if they continue to be successful. Efren's latest play seems more taking the traditional game to new heights, Cory's is making it a much more aggression oriented game.

These comments are based on the Accu-Stat tapes of the semi's and finals but according to the commentators the style of play seen there was typical of both players throughout the event.

Hu

 

[freddy the beard]

Trade off

Atttempts to wheedle the real 1pkt concept out of me, or to get me to prove that it even exists, will get nowhere. I'm sure that such attempts on some of the other code-keepers like Grady, Ronnie, Artie, J. Fusco, etc. will bear no fruit from them either. I will only offer an even-up trade for the straight-pool concept, with the straight-pool provider having to put his info up for perusal and validation first. I hold little hope for that exchange to ever work out because I am afraid that there might not be anybody left alive with that straight-pool info. Rockford's, Dallas West is a for-sure exception, but he has no real interest in learning 1pkt. I drool at the prospect of exchanging info with Dallas. I will even go so far as to also illuminate whomever can put the Dallas/Beard exchange together.

the Beard

 

[Southpaw]

Well its obvious that there are many different "concepts" to one pocket. I think Efren and Corey have their own, but players like Grady, Nick, Allen Hopkins and Incardona all have their own as well. Personally I like Varners concept....move until you get a shot, and if you arent able to run out, squeeze your oponent. He has worn down many great players this way.

Southpaw

 

[Slider]

To defend against that, when a really difficult situation arose, when I could feel him surreptitiously analyzing my thinking processes, I would sometimes purposely take the wrong path. This way he would think that he had found the info all by himself and it gave the tainted concept more validity.

I'm just a little dimayed to see what I thought was MY secret being so blatantly displayed here in public forum.

While all this time it appeared that I was simply losing to the so-called better 1-P players, I have been insidiously planting within them the seeds of a flawed strategy. Now, thanks to this exposé, my hopes of taking the whole bunch of them down have been dashed to the ground, and I don't thnk I have enough time left in this life to lay down another spread like the one I have spent so many years developing.

Ken

 

[JoeyA]

I'm just a little dimayed to see what I thought was MY secret being so blatantly displayed here in public forum.

While all this time it appeared that I was simply losing to the so-called better 1-P players, I have been insidiously planting within them the seeds of a flawed strategy. Now, thanks to this exposé, my hopes of taking the whole bunch of them down have been dashed to the ground, and I don't thnk I have enough time left in this life to lay down another spread like the one I have spent so many years developing.

Ken

You can't get any more rep from me for now but you made me laugh.

If I ever pass through your town or you mine, please introduce yourself.
Thanks,
joeyA

 

[vagabond]

Do you believe such a thing as a "1pocket Concept," as Freddy has alluded to, really exists?


Lou Figueroa
just wonderin'

Yes,it does exist but is different:
one time Buddy hall told grady ``moves,what moves, when I could run 8 and out? That is buddy`s concept.
In the USopen One pocket championship in kalamazoo, MI Jeremy Jones concept appeared to be to play it like a 9 ball game and he won that tournament with very aggressive 9 ball style.
I am guessing that 30 -40 years ago the guys who started `moves`& `concepts` are the ones who could not make a long cut shots.it is only a guess.

 

[wayne]

Yes,it does exist but is different:
one time Buddy hall told grady ``moves,what moves, when I could run 8 and out? That is buddy`s concept.
In the USopen One pocket championship in kalamazoo, MI Jeremy Jones concept appeared to be to play it like a 9 ball game and he won that tournament with very aggressive 9 ball style.
I am guessing that 30 -40 years ago the guys who started `moves`& `concepts` are the ones who could not make a long cut shots.it is only a guess.

I remember watching Joyner play John Schmidt one-pocket giving up something like 10-7 or 9-6. Joyner was playing one-pocket safeties and Schmidt didn't know enough about 1 pocket not to shoot the very difficult shots he was left with. The problem for Joyner was that Schmidt never missed. Now that Schmidt has learned one-pocket he probably doesn't take those shots anymore.

 

[philw]

T-dog, I'm not trying to stir up anything. I love 1pocket and Freddy's comments in the Buddy Hall/1pocket Player thread got me interested. He said:
"Shannon and Varner? Even though Shannon has an important piece of the "concept" that Nicky doesnt have, Nick is a tremendous favorite."

And:
"Re Cliff Joyner: When playing weak players and giving up monster spots Cliff employs the "concept" perfectly. It's only when playing the top, top, guys his speed (Efren, Duel, Frost etc.) does he deviate and abandon the pure form of the concept, mistakenly thinking it doesnt apply when playing against monsters."

And now that I think of it, it that same post he says:
"As far as Efren, keep in mind he learned the game from me, and I made sure I taught him many bad things purposely..."

Now about that last, Freddy talks about teaching Efren like Efren is some sort of dufus that has had his head in the sand since leaving Freddy's joint and never learned anything after Freddy passed on the news, with those few "bad things" sprinkled in. Like Efren ain't figured the "bad things" from the get go.

I was taught 1pocket by some old guys who taught me a lot of good stuff and some bad stuff. But over the years, being a reasonably intelligent player, I started coming to my own conclusions about the game. I threw some stuff that they taught me out, I learned new things, and I created some of my own ideas based upon my own strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes. The guys that taught me are still the ones who think playing 1pocket constitutes bunting all the balls up table, or never shooting at your hole unless you have the stone cold nuts. I now offer those guys 11-7 and they won't play.

So I'm not trying to "stir" anything up -- Freddy does know a lot, but I personally think he's off base on this one and thought it would make for a good discussion.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, when Freddy played Efren one pocket Efren didn't know the game at all. Efren picked up many things from Freddy he understood how important it was to freeze the cueball on the stack or leave the cueball on the rail. It didn't take Efren long to beat Freddy at this game either Efren is a quick learner so I agree Freddy taught Efren some one pocket but Efren took one pocket to another level with his own creativity and that is why it is so much fun to watch Efren play that game more than any other player on the planet because you just never know what shot he's going to shoot and are impressed by his creative choices. P.S. Efren didn't play Freddy in Freddy's room he played him at the Chicago Billiard Cafe and I witnessed most of that action. Philw

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Atttempts to wheedle the real 1pkt concept out of me, or to get me to prove that it even exists, will get nowhere. I'm sure that such attempts on some of the other code-keepers like Grady, Ronnie, Artie, J. Fusco, etc. will bear no fruit from them either. I will only offer an even-up trade for the straight-pool concept, with the straight-pool provider having to put his info up for perusal and validation first. I hold little hope for that exchange to ever work out because I am afraid that there might not be anybody left alive with that straight-pool info. Rockford's, Dallas West is a for-sure exception, but he has no real interest in learning 1pkt. I drool at the prospect of exchanging info with Dallas. I will even go so far as to also illuminate whomever can put the Dallas/Beard exchange together.

the Beard

Freddy, do you guys plan on keeping the concept all the way to the grave? Or do you plan on passing it to someone who has the right head for it? Or do you plan on selling it? I believe what you are saying about it, and this 'mysticism' has kind of peaked my interest about the subject.

 

[freddy the beard]

Selling it? Of course not.

Freddy, do you guys plan on keeping the concept all the way to the grave? Or do you plan on passing it to someone who has the right head for it? Or do you plan on selling it? I believe what you are saying about it, and this 'mysticism' has kind of peaked my interest about the subject.

I certainly do not plan on selling it. As I stated previously, an even exchange for the straight-pool concept which eluded me throughout my career. If I ever take on a protege, he would receive it gratis. The closest thing I have to a protege is English player Brian Saleh, but he is an 8 ball player and not at all interested in 1pkt. I am sorry if I appear to be tantalizing everyone, that's not really my intention. You see, I have had some bad experiences with dispensation of knowledge. About 10 years ago I made the mistake of beginning to leak it to 2 paying students, One was just an average shortstop, and the other one is a top player today (no names). Big mistake, neither player was ready for that type of thinking. They acted like they understood it and they both sort of humored me! They had their own concept of what the concept "should" be. If that was so, what did they need me for? I didnt argue, and pulled my horns in immediately and went no further, content that everything had gone over their heads. Needless to say, I gave them no more lessons of any type. Why dont you guys put some heat on Grady and see how far you get? Considering he cant play great anymore, but he still has knowledge that others dont have, he will probably be as stonewalling as I have been. Artie Bodendorfer puts a price on his knowledge. He will release for $30,000. And that aint no malarkey.

the Beard

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I meant to say that I am interested in the "mystery" of the concept, i.e. how only a select few great players know it, and as if it's a secret code to play the game perfectly or something.

What I really want to know is why you old-schoolers, who don't really play anymore, would want to keep the game of 1pocket from progressing to higher levels in the generations to come. I really hope this 'concept' doesn't go to the grave and is lost for good, if it is indeed the greatest concept of the game.

 

[bruin70]

1. Wouldn't any such concept have to be tailored to account for the skills of the individual player, therefore making an overarching "concept" for the game invalid?

2. And, just as Efren changed any existing or supposed "concept" of 9ball, especially when it comes to kicking and safety play, hasn't he and others changed, updated, modernized any traditional "concept" of 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa
just wonderin'

1...a gross oversight by almost all "instructors". truely good instructors understands indivisual needs and tailers his wisdom to fit the student. most instructors try to bend students with their own personal dogma.

2..what? are you against evolution? what if neanderthal man said "ya know, 16 sides on these wheels are plenty enough to roll a dead wooly mamouth".

you're a contradicting yourself, kimosabe. if efren modernizes the concept of traditional 1 pocket, what about that indivisual you point out who may not have efren's skill and must rely on older concepts. to each his own, right?

 

[freddy the beard]

Ok, I give.. kinda

I meant to say that I am interested in the "mystery" of the concept, i.e. how only a select few great players know it, and as if it's a secret code to play the game perfectly or something.

What I really want to know is why you old-schoolers, who don't really play anymore, would want to keep the game of 1pocket from progressing to higher levels in the generations to come. I really hope this 'concept' doesn't go to the grave and is lost for good, if it is indeed the greatest concept of the game.

Cuetechasaurus,
So far you are the only guy who posed your curiosity and interest into a palatable form. Not knocking, being disprespectful, or throwing digs. Because you approached the subject without an apparent selfish agenda, you were able to read a little deeper into what I have been aluding to. The only one, by the way. If you like, I will PM with you and go into the subject a little deeper. I will certainly give you enough to work with anyway.

Good luck,
the Beard