By every definition, it indicates less than high quality work. You'll have to decide for yourself whether it is acceptable or not.
Is taper roll acceptable?
- Thread starter Tontus
- Start date
If it rolls like a loaf of bread....then it must be a loaf of bread.:wink:
I love loaf of bread and some butter:grin-loving:
The bigger the taper roll = bigger the warp.Taper roll is refined excuse for the customer to except that he just bought a subpar-product without feeling so bad.me too buddybut not the taper roll
It has been my experience that shafts don't warp at all in the first 5 inches or so from the joint being the thickness prevents major movement of the wood. This is the basis for turning shafts slowly and letting them move after each cut and then cutting any warp out afterwards. By the time you are at final cut you hopefully have relieved all stresses out. As for whether you end up with a concentric hole or not comes down to always using a boring bar and then live tool the threads. Add all that together and there should never be an issue with "taper roll" ever.
Hi,
I agree with Sheldon completely.
This has been a very interesting and revealing thread concerning a subject that can make or break a cue maker's reputation. Someone buys a cue, discovers the roll on the table and does not feel they got a quality product. They tell others. Ouch! That's going to hurt.
I have witnessed several times at shows where the buyer rolls the cue and questions the flaw and the response buy the salesman is " that's OK it's only a little table roll, the shaft is not warped". Then they take the shaft off the butt, roll it and show that the shafts is not warped.
I have even seen a slick dude question the buyer's pool cue knowledge buy putting the guy on the spot and he bought the cue anyway. You think he had buyer remorse down the road? I think so.
What they should have said was, "the shafts not warped", it was just built in a way where the cue maker could not control tolerances that are 3 dimensional. I don't think Mr. Slick Cue Dude would do that as he wants to make the quick sale.
I have had to deal with this issue and I told the customers, I will fix the problem. In these cases it was so slight that I did not catch it myself as some people get their eye right under the shaft and peek. After seeing a few guys do that, I started looking at it myself at that level of scrutiny. The only rational thing you can do, suck it up do the work, make them happy. After doing this a few times I realized that there was a much bigger picture here and the plane was flying me, I was not flying the plane. Because I keep statistical records I knew that 85% of my cues were fine but 15% had a slight roll.
Conclusions from my "Root Cause Analysis" revealed the following as culprits for and can contribute to "Table Roll":
Canted Pin on the X
Canted Threads in the Shaft on the X
Bad Facing
Unclean Face
Concentricity singularly and also caused by the turning of the cue into the shaft.
Over Sanding the Shafts
A very careful analysis and exploration revealed to me that any one of these factors can be the reason for a roll problem but when the planets align, slight variances in any combiation of the tolerances can gang up on you to create a table roll.
In all machining operations there has to be accepted tolerances. When mating, and both part's specs. by random odds fall in at the edge of these tolerance envelopes, then outcomes can vary.
My "Corrective Actions" were to make sure that one of the mating parts had a zero tolerance and then, holding selected + or - specifications could be tolerated. I choose to have my shaft threads alignment to be running true and to act as the driver for taper on my X axis as the underpinning of my method. I was lucky because my partner Ray had showed me a new way how to do this and one day I put it into my method of cue building.
In any Q/A Q/C program procedure there is a "Lessons Learned" function whereby you back track and evaluate the corrective process. For me it was amplifying slight chuck and collet errors and also trying to indicate on a machine phenolic OD to measurements that were measured in tenths of thousands. Truing my chuck to a higher standard, using precision tapered ID Collets without splits and opening up the tolerance of the boring of my pins alignment barrel to have better control of setting the pin during the epoxying time. All of these things helped me to attain a better standard on the butt work.
Pool cues are very personal things to most players and they want to connect with a cue maker personally. This branding connection will not be made if your cues roll funny.
Not only does he make world class cues but Barry Szamboti connects with his customers and makes them feel part of the branding and tradition. Have you ever noticed how many pictures there are where people are posing with Barry holding their cues. These pictures are held as prize possessions. This celebrity status can only be made from an established respect for the product and a genuine connection with the man. Neither of these factors can be faked and must be genuine. If any of the Top Cue Makers like Barry had table roll going on I am sure they would rally to make sure their customers were handled correctly to protect their branding. It is more important when building the brand as you must established it one customer or observer at a time.
Yes, Taper or Table Roll does exist and should never be tolerated for any reason at any time. As part of my "Beta Testing" portion of my program, I built over 30 cues and gave them away to some league players and "A" Players in my Billiards Cafe. I did so to attain feedback ( good or Bad ) and to track my cues over time evaluating possible buzz effects from glues during coring, concentricity, shaft tapers, different finishes, ferrules and other critical items from people I respected in the pool community.
During this beta testing a few of those cues had table roll questions and were not warped. I without a second thought offered to make it right even though they did not pay a penny for the cue. That's what I mean about should never be tolerated for any reason, especially money. Developing your brand and connection and trust with each person one on one. Out of those free cues I have given away, many of those players have come back and bought fancy high end cues from me and I guarantee this time it was not for free.
IMO creating shafts is the singular most important component of a cue, it has the most complex geometry, and is a mated part that has to pass muster when rolling on the table for all to see.
Rick Geschrey
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Over 98 % of all Cue Specific lathes ever made do not have thread milling capability. So the alternate methods to thread milling do need to be discussed, since a huge portion of cue shops do not do thread milling. I build a lathe option that can thread mill and Unique builds that as an option also. But other than that most other cue lathes can't thread mill.
I think this thread has been very beneficial as it expresses to every cuemaker reading it that they need to eliminate wobble from the shafts. And some creative ideas have been shared on how to do so. Thread milling for the more advanced shops and alternate methods for everyone else.
Someone could go farther with this thread and share with the repair guys on how to eliminate taper roll on extra shafts you build for cues with non-concentric joint screws. Or we could call it a dead horse and quit beating it. I am okay with either way the thread goes.
Very interesting thread. Nice write-ups.
On the original question.
This is from a player's perspective, not as a cuemaker.
When me and a friend ran around playing for fun and money 30 years ago I never looked for a perfect stick. I'd go into a bar or pool-hall and find the stick with the best tip and hopefully it was 21oz as I preferred at the time. I didn't care if it was bent like a banana as long as it had a good tip. I'd roll it to find the high spot and mark it so the bow would always point up (kinda thought it helped with draw). I figured the stick was just a way to hold the tip. I've changed my thinking over the years somewhat and have definite preferences for joints, ferrules, tips, etc. But, I still believe you can have the best cue on earth and if it has a crappy tip it will not play very well.
That being said, now when I buy a stick I want it to be right. I expect the shaft to be straight and true (not to the point of using V-blocks and an indicator but rolled on a table I should not see any wobble or runout). I am more tolerant on old cues. If I buy some $40 cues for the kids then I expect them to be crappy... you get what you pay for. But, when I plop down $500+ for a new cue I expect it to be near perfect. It is not that the shaft bowing or wobbling a little affects my game very much, because it doesn't. I shoot well enough that a little warp won't bother me. If I shot at Karen Korr's level maybe it would. And I guess if you get it into your head it messes up your game, I suspect it will. Two reasons I want it to be near perfect: I want what I paid for and a professional cuemaker should provide that without me saying anything. The other is if I try to sell it later, the value is directly affected by the condition of the shaft. And yes, at little bit of runout doesn't really affect the playability but people have that in their heads and will adjust their offer accordingly. A little warp you can expect over time, but having a new shaft wobble because the joint was done incorrectly is unacceptable. Call it "taper roll", "table roll", whatever, the cue apparently was not made properly and the cuemakers should repair or replace it without question.
So what do I think? Don't worry too much about what other people (including me) think are "acceptable". A cue is supposed to be straight and true. If you are not happy with the cue have it repaired, replaced or get your money back. When you're struggling with your game you don't want to be thinking the cue might be your problem.
On the original question.
This is from a player's perspective, not as a cuemaker.
When me and a friend ran around playing for fun and money 30 years ago I never looked for a perfect stick. I'd go into a bar or pool-hall and find the stick with the best tip and hopefully it was 21oz as I preferred at the time. I didn't care if it was bent like a banana as long as it had a good tip. I'd roll it to find the high spot and mark it so the bow would always point up (kinda thought it helped with draw). I figured the stick was just a way to hold the tip. I've changed my thinking over the years somewhat and have definite preferences for joints, ferrules, tips, etc. But, I still believe you can have the best cue on earth and if it has a crappy tip it will not play very well.
That being said, now when I buy a stick I want it to be right. I expect the shaft to be straight and true (not to the point of using V-blocks and an indicator but rolled on a table I should not see any wobble or runout). I am more tolerant on old cues. If I buy some $40 cues for the kids then I expect them to be crappy... you get what you pay for. But, when I plop down $500+ for a new cue I expect it to be near perfect. It is not that the shaft bowing or wobbling a little affects my game very much, because it doesn't. I shoot well enough that a little warp won't bother me. If I shot at Karen Korr's level maybe it would. And I guess if you get it into your head it messes up your game, I suspect it will. Two reasons I want it to be near perfect: I want what I paid for and a professional cuemaker should provide that without me saying anything. The other is if I try to sell it later, the value is directly affected by the condition of the shaft. And yes, at little bit of runout doesn't really affect the playability but people have that in their heads and will adjust their offer accordingly. A little warp you can expect over time, but having a new shaft wobble because the joint was done incorrectly is unacceptable. Call it "taper roll", "table roll", whatever, the cue apparently was not made properly and the cuemakers should repair or replace it without question.
So what do I think? Don't worry too much about what other people (including me) think are "acceptable". A cue is supposed to be straight and true. If you are not happy with the cue have it repaired, replaced or get your money back. When you're struggling with your game you don't want to be thinking the cue might be your problem.
Every time I miss a shot...I blame the cue. 
Thank you Sir for taking the time to post your opinion. I am in 100% agreement with you.
Have a nice day,
I'm with both of you:smile:
I still don't know you can tap without a collet on a tapered piece .
What's the size of the ferrule end after the initial taper ?
If you have two chucks you can tap a shaft without using a collet.
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Hi Joe,
Good question. My oversized tapered shaft is chucked on the six jaw @.950 no collet and the back chuck has tapered spring loaded delrin paws that hold the shaft. Even so the shaft dia. is large enough where any marks would be removed during contour tapering on the saw machine between centers.
In fact I chuck very hard on the six jaw at the joint side and do leave jaw marks. When I tap I don't want the wood to slip on the chuck. Actually I am not so worried about the taping as I am mounting in the concentricity pin tool drive center into the shaft insert threads with the smaller minor which is a very tight fit and puts a lot of torque on the piece. On the back chuck there are no marks as I don't crank it.
The rear jaw set up is a Unique Products large bore chuck that opens 1 3/8" down to about 12mm. We mounted this unit and modified this lathe 5 years ago and because of it's design it does not present a spinning chuck hazard. It's a great unit for a rear chuck and I love it.
Rick G
Unique Products Chuck for the back side of the spindle bore.
Six Jaw holding the joint side at .950. After taping and facing, I cut my joint tenon to length and dia. After the pin tool is installed I am ready to go to the saw machine for the intermediate shaft tapering series of cuts @ .010 each. I also cut off the small side of the shaft to 29. 3/8", re center, cut the tenon and install the ferrule at this size.
The ferrule shown here is somewhere in the middle of our intermediate cuts. I am not in the shop now so I am not sure as to what the tip side's size is when the joint is at .950. My geometry at finish off the tapering machine is .837 on the joint and .517 for a 13mm finished shaft. Installing the ferrule before the tapering process starts again produces a tapered ferule at final which is one of our cue's feature elements.
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So if you have 3 hundred cones, you will need 300 tapped holes and turning pins?
How many dozens are those behind the tapped shafts ?
12 dozens ?
Different process for me.
I center according to grain, ferrule and collar at 13.5MM , .865" joint. Tap at .002" from final size.
I can't collar that early b/c I match the shafts when they are at near finish size for weight and tone.
And the rings are not decided that early.
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Joe,
I have about 35 pins in my shop. I build groups of 13 cues at a time plus custom orders that I get so at this time I have about nine cues with 2 shafts each waiting to be completed and a 4 custom orders in progress. As the cues are finished, the pins are recycled into the bin.
I have found that having the cues blanks built or partially built gives me an advantage because if someone visits my shop they can pick a cue blank they want at .020 over size and still have inlay options and can avoid a 4 month waiting list.
The 180 shafts in that cart are all resting with the taper at about .950. Before I put them in the lathe to thread, I take another .010 verification pass on the saw machine just to inspect the straightness of the taper. If the shaft has moved a little, I mark that shaft and will observe it along the way after the tapering on the pin starts. I also have 400 shafts resting @ .975 and about 150 newer 1" dowels hanging without tapers.
I had 500 of my joint pins custom made and my cost per "pin tool" is only about $ 5.00 each. So my cost was low to make them. Once a pin tool is set hard on the smaller minor, I never take them out until the clear coat is buffed. At that time I run the normal drill tap by hand in about 1/2" to step the minor and the very tight facing fit happens at the end of the mating process by the player.
Rick G
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Sounds like you might have pointed jaws instead of concaved jaws like we use on cue lathes, or the rear chucks we make for metal lathes. When I designed my Cue Smith lathes I tried to eliminate things that went wrong or were hard to do with standard metal working lathes.
Hi Chris,
You make a great point about the concave chuck face. What's funny is the only reason I don't have one of your chucks on my back side is due to the fact that when I called you to order a Cue smith Lathe in 2002 you had a backlog of I think 15 lathes and I did not want to wait. You were swamped with building the cue lathes.
I bought a Unique CC for my cue repair at my pool hall and bought the optional large bore internal chuck. I fixed a few butt caps and made a few sneakys with it and when I got my big metal lathe, it was sitting around and it just fit the bill for my back chuck.
Rick