Is the ACS Corrupt? Where is all the money? A Letter To Mr. Lewis

J

JohnBCA

Registered
I have been watching for over a year now, lying in wait if you will, to see just exactly how the ACS and it's board of debunked directors will weather through the BCA storm. It looks like they have failed miserably in their concept and especially in their payout's.

I have watched John Lewis scurry away from my home state of Colorado to a more affordable abode in the heartland. It's been a whirlwind downfall for this band of borderline has been's. It seems that the major share holder of this new "Alliance" is living off the proceeds of the pittance of the touring McDermott Tour and other regional events nationwide. Is it really in the sport of billiards to keep this man and his dream alive?

So, with some enquires and careful watching of what the ACS is doing, I implore you to read the difference between the attendances and especially the payout's of these two events that were run on the same weekend.

The first is the Arizona BCA http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=3471 Everything is spelled out with the number of teams and payout's with money added. Now, take a close look at the Illinois payout's with more attendees:
http://www.americancuesports.org/Im... Results - Davenport IA/2005 ACS Natl 9-Ball . They ramble with nonstop jargon endlessly while purposely not mentioning the number of players that participated in this event. I was told that 60+ attended the ACS team event with the payout being the same for a third of the players in the BCA. Apparently, the ACS has much more overhead involved to take out that much money?

What amuses me the most is seeing the conflict of payout's. Do they actually think that the public isn't keeping track? I have noticed that several players are in both ACS and BCA that contribute to this forum. If Mr. Lewis won't own up to his indigestions, maybe one of his followers will?

Mr. Lewis, I sincerely hope that you are reading this and can add some light to this subject. You know, it is election time coming up again soon!
 
John, please explain what "ACS" stands for, the organization.

Also, I read somewhere that John Lewis resigned from the BCA a short time ago, if memory serves me right.

Interestingly, this year the BCA only voted in one Hall of Famer, Earl Strickland, as opposed to two from previous years.

Also, I think I read that this year the FIRST-PLACE payout for the BCA tournament in Vegas will be $20,000 as compared to $15,000 in years prior. That's a step in the right direction, IMHO, and long overdue. How many actual employees do work at the BCA in Colorado? Just curious. :p

Has the BCA down-sized in recent times? Are there less employees working there than in previous times? The BCA has a great website: http://www.bca-pool.com

JAM
 
The BCA and the BCA Pool Leagues are two different organizations.

The BCA is a trade Organization located in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
The BCA Pool League is headquartered in Las Vegas, Nevada.
 
JAM,

The ACS stands for Association of Cue Sports (taken from my former organization, Association of Cuesports for Women???) and was formed by the defectors of the BCA when the pool leagues split from the trade organization.

Regionally here in the NW, the payouts were initially much larger than the BCA and competition was very soft. However, most of us preferred to stay with the BCA. I'm not sure if the payouts have dwindled recently, but judging from the last regional writeup, the competition is still nowhere near the BCA's where it means something to win it because of the depth of champions you have to beat to get there, at least in Masters singles.
 
I went to the Pacific ACS regional 9ball tournament in Canyonville, OR at Seven Feathers Casino several months ago and it was a joke IMO. It is such a bad location that noone showed up. 51 Open players and 11 Masters. There was no money added..or if there was it was added to the Masters division. I got 5th/6th in the Open and it paid a whopping $85. 1st was only about $400 if I remember right.

If they wanted they could find any number of better locations closer to where the players are. Namely Salem/Portland/Tacoma/Seattle. Any one of those cities and they would have probably doubled their turnout. But it comes down to being at a place that will add money, like Chinook Winds Casino in Lincoln City. But they wore out their welcome there. They should have looked into Spirit Mountain Casino if they wanted to keep it at a casino, or any number of large ones in the Seattle area.

It'll be the last time I play in that league again.
 
JohnBCA said:
The first is the Arizona BCA http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=3471 Everything is spelled out with the number of teams and payout's with money added. Now, take a close look at the Illinois payout's with more attendees:
http://www.americancuesports.org/Im... Results - Davenport IA/2005 ACS Natl 9-Ball . They ramble with nonstop jargon endlessly while purposely not mentioning the number of players that participated in this event. I was told that 60+ attended the ACS team event with the payout being the same for a third of the players in the BCA. Apparently, the ACS has much more overhead involved to take out that much money?
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Having been at the Illinois event, I can tell you what I was told about the payouts. The added monies for the singles events were taken from the team events.(including the scotch doubles). I was originally told that $5000 was taken from the team event, but a quick look at the payouts make it seem more like $3000 or so. I don't have a problem with taking money from one event for another AS LONG AS it is written in big letters on the sign up forms and at the tournaments themselves. I believe people should get to decide ahead of time if they wish to participate under these premises.
 
I almost hate to weigh in here but I haven’t been happy about the split since it happened. Knowing what I know about some of people involved in Acs its no wonder that desperate measures are being taking. Maybe its time for some of these people to leave before Acs has any chance, if any. If they are manipulating money it seems that the Acs is at the end of the sparkler.

Last years 2005 Acs National 8 ball was smaller then the BCAPL WBCA regional in the Northwest in many categories. Some of the Acs hope fulls were saying that it was the first year and all that would change for the better. Many of those who attended in 2005 are not going to Acs 2006 event. The next year many of those who didn’t play BCAPL for that stupid political reason, came back to Play BCAPL.

You can’t promise a pie in the sky. Maybe a car salesman can get away with it, but pool players are more attentive to those things

WESTERN BCA'S 11TH ANNUAL REGIONAL 8-BALL TOURNAMENT TOPS $73,825 PAYOUT, $29,000 ADDED, 943 PLAYERS

http://www.westernbca.org/blog/
 
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Unethical practices

This is a sore point with me.

When the Minnesota ACS organization formed, they borrowed money (like 20K) from the Minnesota BCA organization. Then, the MN BCA folded. Same people from MN BCA formed MN ACS. Kinda unethical if you ask me.
 
The Texas ACS is a bunch of frauds. In the mens open there were approx. 125 entries and no added money and the top prize was a huge $900 Which the vice president won and lets just say he got an easy draw (he went two and out at the BCA tourney.) I finished 17-24 and got a lump sum of $32. There were about 50 teams and the payout wasn't over $1000 for first. I am sure they made a ton of money on the tables.

Our local league is going to crap with the Texas president of ACS running the league. They somehow fell behind with the funds to give the Vegas trips away and this season there is only one bracket with 19 teams and it is handicapped. They are only giving away 1 trip this season and the dues are up to $10 a night. This season is going to be 19 weeks long. So they are going to make about $17000 and give away 1 $3000 trip hmmmmm yea thats fair. People are not going to play in the Texas ACS in about a year or so the league will fold IMO. Thre was alot of talk about how bad the ACS state tourney was compared to the BCA state.

The BCA state tourney on the other hand was excellent. Payout was $2400 for first and there was added money. Everything seemed fair and just. The BCA league in my area is run well. So I guess the ACS sucking isn't just local.
 
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It's about time that the players smartened up. The ACS has had over a year now to make things right from the terrible wrong they did by dividing the league systems. It's been nothing but campaign promises and money laundering coming from this band of bandits.

Isn't it interesting that looking at the Illinois payout's then going to back to look at the Iowa 9 Ball Nationals, the ever prominent Bowman Family seems to have taken the whole cake. How can they be so Top heavy in the Master Division? Is this because a certain son of one of the board of directors, namely Duane Bowman's son Jessie is the favorite to win? Favoritism, you bet! All for one, and none for all should be their slogan.

Dogginthe9, you stated that you played in the IL tournament. Did you place in it and if so was the payout marked as you said with the money either added or subtracted. You mentioned that it would have been nice if, but didn't say if it was. So I am not clear on the fact that you knew about it, but did everyone know about it? If you played on a team, how much did you make, and what was added? So was it written at the top of the chart so everyone knew where the money was going?
 
for 1 the bowmans had nothing to do with the national 9-ball tourny in iowa...that was run by the national acs...for 2 you cant say that the bowmans are top loading the master cause jessie is the favorite cause jessie is 1 of the favorites in any tourny he enters no matter where it is....now you sit there and talk about the pay outs at tournys and the number of entries compared to bca vs acs....of course the bca is going to have more then the acs cause the bca has been around longer and i'll be willing to bet you if you look back when the bca started up they didnt have as many players as the acs has now only after 1 year....i have nothing against any 1 of these groups i think they both do good things for pool...i just think if your going to start bashing someone you should prob have all your facts straight before you go running off at the bit....
 
JohnBCA said:
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Dogginthe9, you stated that you played in the IL tournament. Did you place in it and if so was the payout marked as you said with the money either added or subtracted. You mentioned that it would have been nice if, but didn't say if it was. So I am not clear on the fact that you knew about it, but did everyone know about it? If you played on a team, how much did you make, and what was added? So was it written at the top of the chart so everyone knew where the money was going?
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John,
Yes I played and yes I placed. The prize money paid out was not posted until the events were almost completely over. I find this strange considering they knew the number of players in the events right away. I just figured the payouts should be posted almost immediately after things get underway. As for the added monies, I had no idea of the exact amounts or where it came from until the payouts were posted. And no, it was not written at the top of the charts for all to see.
 
It’s nice to be able to vent situations rather then to keep it in. I have been trying to avoid this conflict for a while but I see that it won’t go away.

Too many funny things happening with Acs. A situation in my neck of the woods: A local Acs promoter told players to enter the regional Acs tournament, convincing them there was all ready a huge number of entries in the event. After the event started there were hardly any of the entrants that were claimed already entered. This was lying to players to get numbers up so they would not look bad in the pool community.

Many of the actions of Acs people have hurt Acs they need to go in order for there to be any chance for Acs to survive. They are working on the wrong premise. I can’t support them until those personnel changes happen.
 
Pool orginizations

I like what the Iowa players did. They told the BCA and the ACS to both go fly a kite and they have their own organization. The Iowa Pool Players Association. It's the largest state tournament in the nation and the pay out last week was a total of $80,000. and it went out to 500 and some players. It didn't just go to 1st 2nd and 3rd. One of the strongest fields you will ever see also. The money all stayed in house. Butterflycues
 
Is ACS Corrupt?

First of all lets get the real story straight about the the Texas ACS state 8-Ball Championships, held in Odessa, Texas.

The reason the difference in payouts between ACS and BCA was very simple. ACS charged $40 registrations fee ($5 of which went to processing, $35 back to the players) BCA was $60.00 ($10.00 going to green fees-even though we paid dollar tables, $50 back to the players). Now with the real facts out on the table , let's do some math.

ACS-128 players X $35.00= $4,480 Incoming Money
BCA-175 players X $50.00= $8,750 Incoming Money,

So lets see who would have more money for payout? Yes, They did add back in table money because they were given money back from the tables. AVS wasn NOT given back table money because it was part of the deal that was arranged between the table supplier and tournament director.

Now, as for the acusation of cheating or having an easy bracket so that the VP could win. This is the VP. A referee (Steve T) completed the drawing and two other witnesses verified the results. Additionally, when the brackets were drawn they wer placed in a random order throughout the 128 brackets, basically ensuring a double random selection.
Now for the easy brackets. I played three former Masters players (Billy Smith, David Dickerson (Both of which won state teams) and Oscar Garcia), I played Ray Henson from Waco (Texas Open, Fast Eddies and many other large tournament player), Mike Jordan (The state championship team member) and Cody Brooks. So I guess your complaining and lack of knowledge to actually went on during the tournament brings into question, if you even know what your talking about? Next time you question my integrity you better know what your talking about.

If you would like to arrange a fact-to-face meeting and discuss more, please let me know. I look forward to setting you straight.
Kenn Bogart
 
I rack balls said:
The Texas ACS is a bunch of fraudulent bastards. In the mens open there were approx. 125 entries and no added money and the top prize was a huge $900 Which the vice president won and lets just say he got an easy draw (he went two and out at the BCA tourney.) I finished 17-24 and got a lump sum of $32. There were about 50 teams and the payout wasn't over $1000 for first. I am sure they made a ton of money on the tables.

Our local league is going to crap with the Texas president of ACS running the league. They somehow fell behind with the funds to give the Vegas trips away and this season there is only one bracket with 19 teams and it is handicapped. They are only giving away 1 trip this season and the dues are up to $10 a night. This season is going to be 19 weeks long. So they are going to make about $17000 and give away 1 $3000 trip hmmmmm yea thats fair. People are not going to play in the Texas ACS in about a year or so the league will fold IMO. Thre was alot of talk about how crappy the ACS state tourney was compared to the BCA state.

The BCA state tourney on the other hand was excellent. Payout was $2400 for first and there was added money. Everything seemed fair and just. The BCA league in my area is run well. So I guess the ACS sucking isn't just local.
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First of all, I am the referee that drew the brackets. I am a BCA and ACS Certified Referee. The entries were divided into 3 groups (The Odessa area, the DFW area and the rest of the state) which made for a pretty even grouping. This was done for all the divisions. The intent was that people from the Beaumont or Dallas or Odessa areas should not have to travel to a tournament and play a player or team that they play on a weekly basis back home. I do not think this was done at the BCA tournament. In addition, the bracket was filled in alternating top and bottom positions......further randomizing the draw.

Didn't get the opponents you wanted? Sorry but that's "The luck of the draw".

Think the TX ACS VP got an easy draw? I don't know if he did or not but I refereed the whole tournament and the play was very competitive.

That the TX ACS VP was out in 2 rounds at the BCA tourney has no bearing on the ACS tourney since anybody can be beaten on any given day. Look back over the years and see how many "Pro Players" took 1st place and the following event didn't even place in the money...happens all the time.

I also refereed the BCA tournament and just finished officiating the S.W.E.L Championships in Dallas. Both of these tourneys were played on Diamond Tables and they have a different agreement than High Country Promotions (Valley) had with ACS. So if there was extra money to be had from the table arrangement that could have had a large part in it.

You complain about the way your league is operating and your "free trip" to Vegas.

At least you get a free trip to Vegas, in our BCA and ACS leagues we pay our own way.

Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem. Instead of venting your problems on an international forum with no solutions offered.....why don't you go to your league operator or call for a league meeting.

I thought both the TX tournaments had positives and negatives.

Lastly, if you don't like the BCA/ACS payouts you should really try to improve on that 17th-24th finish and play in money tournaments or go pro. If you play BCA or ACS to make money....that's a concept not really grounded in reality.

Steve T
ACS/BCA Referee
 
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Be Grateful and Play

Instead of critizing a NEW POOL organization, you should be grateful for them bringing up another league, thats available to everyone. Now we have four additional tournaments (2 state and 2 Vegas-8/9Ball) that are available to league players.

Offer solutions and not critizism!
Kenn
 
First let me say yes, I am a moron. I was way out of line saying things about you Mr. Bogart and I am sorry. I did not realize your draw thats just what I have heard, that was no easy draw. Once again very sorry, anyone had to play there ass of to win as I am sure you did. I was just trying to build my case and got a lot out of hand in reguards to questioning your integrity as a person and a player. Once again I made an ass of myself.

I remember doing the calculations at the tournament and coming up with a figure that seemed to be short in terms of what the payouts should have been. I guess I just did not know the whole story as to where the money went. I was told that there was money going to be made from the tables by the ACS. I heard an obscene amount, but not true from what you are saying. Did the league make money off of the tournament? Where does the money go if so? Questions that I and other people would like to know. Now im not trying to say that they shouldn't make any money at all, it takes some work to put this thing on. But it should be made public how much the poeple in charge are making, just my opinion.

I still think that the Texas ACS league as a whole is poorly run. A number of people around the state feel this way. There is a large sum of money missing from our area. We have tried to get some answers with no results. The vegas trip is not free, I did not clarify myself. The league dues we pay each week are used for that and that is the majority of the payout form all the money we out into the league. The winner of a end of season tournament gets the "free trip."

I think that to solve these and many other problems it should be made clear where all the money is going, is there a disadvantage to this? Mainly in our area, not so much at the state tourney. But it would be nice to have the numbers for the event also. It would end alot of speculation and rumors.

A suggestion I have is to raise the entry for the Next ACS state tournament. Coming hundreds of miles for a $40 tournament is not going to keep entrants. I overheard many people saying that they were not going to attend next years event. I would pay double the entry with no problem as would people spending hundreds to stay in the hotels. Get the Diamonds at the ACS and add money.

Thank you guys for setting me straight. I need to work on my internet etiquette. Its just that I have been told many bad things about the ACS and alot of things are being consistent with the accusations. People are fed up in our area and I would not be supprised to see the league fold here. And hearing about other people being unhappy with the ACS in other parts of the country doesn't suprise me. Of course I mainly play for enjoyment and love of the game anyway haha. I still enjoy myself playing and I guess that that is the most important thing to me but who likes to lose money? I don't want to see people get rich dishonestly off of other hard working people and it seems that that is exactly what is going on. Sorry again for the personal attack in my first post I truly am. And thanks for clarifying the tournament payouts I was misinformed.
 
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