Is the "hustler" image good or bad for the game
- Thread starter carter1984
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Creative marketing plans made poker, golf and other sports, pool's no exception
The 80s and 90s were influenced by 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money' - both stories about pool hustling and Paul Newman won an Academy Award for 'The Color of Money'......the biggest boom in pool rooms, especially upscale ones were in the late 80s-early 90s.
Several of the Top Men Pros were making over $100,000 and a few of us over $300,000 a year from pool related income, including sponsorship and sales of course.
The Sopranos is one of the most popular TV Shows in history, but not because people want to be mobsters, it's because they think that dark, "underbelly" is cool and enjoy living vicariously (at arm's length) though their adventures.
Pool DOES NOT need to have hustlers these days (and they are pretty much all gone), however they do need to "Real Eyes" how to channel this IMAGE (it's neither "good" or "bad") into a creative marketing tool.
Of course it won't do this on it's own, just like a car won't drive it's self to the store. Creative marketing plans made poker, golf and other sports, pool's no exception to the rule, pool just needs a true visionary and real professional business people involved.
The 80s and 90s were influenced by 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money' - both stories about pool hustling and Paul Newman won an Academy Award for 'The Color of Money'......the biggest boom in pool rooms, especially upscale ones were in the late 80s-early 90s.
Several of the Top Men Pros were making over $100,000 and a few of us over $300,000 a year from pool related income, including sponsorship and sales of course.
The Sopranos is one of the most popular TV Shows in history, but not because people want to be mobsters, it's because they think that dark, "underbelly" is cool and enjoy living vicariously (at arm's length) though their adventures.
Pool DOES NOT need to have hustlers these days (and they are pretty much all gone), however they do need to "Real Eyes" how to channel this IMAGE (it's neither "good" or "bad") into a creative marketing tool.
Of course it won't do this on it's own, just like a car won't drive it's self to the store. Creative marketing plans made poker, golf and other sports, pool's no exception to the rule, pool just needs a true visionary and real professional business people involved.
Limiting this discussion to the US (where pro pool suffers), I say it's a lot. The population of the US is about 316 million. My initial statement could be off by a factor of 10. So if I restated it...
For every person who derives a vicarious thrill from pool's seedy image, there are tens of thousands of people who will avoid pool because of the seedy image.
That still leaves many hundreds of thousands of people to play pool at the amateur level. I liken it to baseball. How many hundreds of thousands of people have played little league and gone on to continue to play softball leagues right now?
It's possible I am over-estimating the numbers. This is just by feel, I'm not using hard data. I saw someone put out a number of how many pool league players there are in the US today. I don't remember the thread or if that number included all the leagues. But I'm guessing that for every league player that exists today there could be at least 10 more, if it weren't for pool's seedy hustler image.
Fatz
The initial question posed in this thread is: Is the "hustler" image good or bad for the game - *In the long run*?
The thing about "The Color of Money" is that the Paul Newman character, Eddie, "got hustled" (twice, first time by the Forest Whitaker character, then he found out his opponent, the Tom Cruise character, Vince, dumped the game in their pro tournament match). In the movie, Newman begins to re-appreciate the SPORT of pool, not the hustling. In the end, he just wanted to get Vince's best game, and to beat him, to show that he was better. Vince was the twerp, turned hustler. He was the bad guy either way. Even though Eddie turned him into the hustler, he was disgusted at what he had created. Eddie turned from hustling into wanting to play pro tournaments and win without taking or giving weight, and so he ends up being the good guy. Plus Newman is Newman. "The Color of Money" probably did so much for the pool industry because it was such a visible movie with a big name cast, but it worked out that way ONLY because it discredits hustling as it progresses. And even its positive effect on pool was temporary, longer than "The Hustler", but temporary.
As for "The Hustler", that movie wasn't really about pool so much as it was about Fast Eddie's obsession with pool, and George C. Scott's "I don't give a rats ass about anything important to you" attitude and what all this results in (I won't spoil it for those who have not seen it).
It could be said that neither movie was really about pool. They were about Fast Eddie, who happened to be a pool player. They had a point to make. "Look what happens in your life if you do this and this and this." Pool was just the backdrop where hustling was used as a point of stress. Hustling was where the conflict came from (some people say there is no story without conflict).
"The Hustler" did more bad for pool than good in the long run because it introduced the masses to that seedy underbelly, and now they think that seedy underbelly is all there is to pool. The Color of Money was good for pool for a while because it discredited hustling. But in the long run, I think it just reminded people that hustling exists.
That's my take on the whole thing anyway.
Fatz
This is where we would all like pool to be. But it didn't last. To get back to this level, pool has to have a cleaner image to bring in new fans (customers). Remember, this is the age of "political correctness". Like it or not, that is the reality. Equating pool with hustling is bad for the sport. It has to have mass appeal to obtain a big strong fan base. By the way, this also means, in my opinion, that sponsors like tobacco, alcohol, and gambling, have been and are bad for pool too.
But no one, not the shows producers, or the watchers, ever asserted that anyone take any action based on what they see in the show. Nobody goes out and starts racketeering as a hobby. We do want people to start playing pool as a hobby. I'm sorry, but I think your analogy is meaningless.
We just disagree here. I think the hustler image is bad for pool, and if it were to be used as a marketing tool now, it would do further harm to pool.
I'll agree with you here for the most part, just not that the marketing plan should include the hustler image.
Ironically, I think that the potential market for pool could have easily out weighed that of poker or golf.
The allure of poker is easy money. I think eventually, for the average citizen, this allure wear's off and you are only left with the type of people who do nothing but dream about easy money for their entire lives. The average Joe also looks on this type of thing as a seedy underbelly to society. So I don't think the market is as big for poker as it could have been for pool. And again, I think that makes gambling a bad choice for a sponsor for pool.
As for golf, that's a great comparison. There is less overhead and expense for the average Joe to go out and shoot pool than to play golf. Plus you can vary the amount of time spent playing pool exactly as you see fit. But the two games seem so similar with regard to the challenge of the physical skill aspect. To me the potential market for pool should be far greater than golf. But why isn't it? Why has golf been so successful, but not pool? Maybe because of the hustler image? I do understand that golfers go out, match up and wager. But it doesn't have the tarnished image of that being all it's about.
Fatz
We CAN change the image of pool, however it's not as simple as just making a case....
I understand your points and let's talk about how to convince the public that pool is, indeed a clean wholesome sport. How will this be communicated? - do you know the essential components for this type persuasion?
The fact is if someone has their mind made up about someone it's IMPOSSIBLE to change that by arguing that they are wrong. Do you agree?
The BEST way to convince someone of something is to first match their opinion. Our research indicates when the average person (we used a 1000 people in a "Think Tank") is ask what they think of when the word "Pool Player" is mentioned they say "Gambler" "Hustler" "Shark" "Black Widow"
"Con Man" "Con Artist" "Slick" "Flim Flam" "Boobs" (not sure why this one came up) etc.
So, how do we change this? Do we say "we are not those things really loud with our hands flapping, or yell it from the highest mountain, or "lead by example" ?
No, I'm sorry, but this will never work.
We first must match what the public thinks, then pace them for awhile, then lead them into a new way of perceiving the "Pool Player". And this must be done on either TV, a Documentary, or a Movie....imo
No other method will work (without millions of marketing/advertising dollars that pool is unlikely to ever have) imo - telling people you're "not" something they think you are is a waste of time and an insult to their intelligence which drives you even further apart from your out come.
We CAN change the image of pool, however it's not as simple as just making a case that you are not how you are perceived. Any Public Relations expert will tell you exactly the same thing. FIRST, you must always match what your reputations is to have any chance of changing it.
The most critical component is how to match this in pool (to the general public), and that's not something I want to go into, it would be TMI. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I understand your points and let's talk about how to convince the public that pool is, indeed a clean wholesome sport. How will this be communicated? - do you know the essential components for this type persuasion?
The fact is if someone has their mind made up about someone it's IMPOSSIBLE to change that by arguing that they are wrong. Do you agree?
The BEST way to convince someone of something is to first match their opinion. Our research indicates when the average person (we used a 1000 people in a "Think Tank") is ask what they think of when the word "Pool Player" is mentioned they say "Gambler" "Hustler" "Shark" "Black Widow"
"Con Man" "Con Artist" "Slick" "Flim Flam" "Boobs" (not sure why this one came up) etc.So, how do we change this? Do we say "we are not those things really loud with our hands flapping, or yell it from the highest mountain, or "lead by example" ?
No, I'm sorry, but this will never work.
We first must match what the public thinks, then pace them for awhile, then lead them into a new way of perceiving the "Pool Player". And this must be done on either TV, a Documentary, or a Movie....imo
No other method will work (without millions of marketing/advertising dollars that pool is unlikely to ever have) imo - telling people you're "not" something they think you are is a waste of time and an insult to their intelligence which drives you even further apart from your out come.
We CAN change the image of pool, however it's not as simple as just making a case that you are not how you are perceived. Any Public Relations expert will tell you exactly the same thing. FIRST, you must always match what your reputations is to have any chance of changing it.
The most critical component is how to match this in pool (to the general public), and that's not something I want to go into, it would be TMI.
'The Game is the Teacher'
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Folks talk about the "image", it really comes down to someone's perception.
I may have the perception that you are a jackass, but if I got to actually know you, my perception very well could change (unless you really are a jackass then it is no longer perception, it's fact).
There is a perception of non pool players that the game is full of "pool sharks and hustlers". In my view the "hustler" image for the game is not good in any shape, form, or fashion and will continue to hurt the game.
Movies about hustling only reinforce the negative perception already held by those that don't play. The "image" they have is of seedy pool rooms, filled with seedy and dishonest people.
I may have the perception that you are a jackass, but if I got to actually know you, my perception very well could change (unless you really are a jackass then it is no longer perception, it's fact).
There is a perception of non pool players that the game is full of "pool sharks and hustlers". In my view the "hustler" image for the game is not good in any shape, form, or fashion and will continue to hurt the game.
Movies about hustling only reinforce the negative perception already held by those that don't play. The "image" they have is of seedy pool rooms, filled with seedy and dishonest people.
story of saving 3 small children, a dog and a pet rabbit from a burning building
I agree, when mass manipulation is going on the first thing that is done is to match the public's opinion, then pace it by telling stories of how it was true, then demonstrating how it's changes now and what it's like today. We need to do this on a large scale with "Pool's Public Perception Permanently"
This system is always used in one way, shape or form and is proven to be effective. Trying to convince someone that you aren't a Fireman is difficult if they truly believe you are a Fireman. It's easier to tell them you "used" to be a Fireman, tell them a story of saving 3 small children, a dog and a pet rabbit from a burning building....THEN tell them that you are now a pool hustler and hang around seedy pool rooms hustling people out of their rent money. ooops, I may have that backwards. 'The Fireman is the Teacher'
I agree, when mass manipulation is going on the first thing that is done is to match the public's opinion, then pace it by telling stories of how it was true, then demonstrating how it's changes now and what it's like today. We need to do this on a large scale with "Pool's Public Perception Permanently"
This system is always used in one way, shape or form and is proven to be effective. Trying to convince someone that you aren't a Fireman is difficult if they truly believe you are a Fireman. It's easier to tell them you "used" to be a Fireman, tell them a story of saving 3 small children, a dog and a pet rabbit from a burning building....THEN tell them that you are now a pool hustler and hang around seedy pool rooms hustling people out of their rent money.
ooops, I may have that backwards. 'The Fireman is the Teacher'
I'm not saying that pool is a clean wholesome sport. Some people are hustlers. But the view of the general public that ALL pool players are hustlers and that all of pool is seedy needs to be changed.
First thing is that public behavior of the most visible pool players needs to change. Stuff like the Appleton/Lee brawl has to go away. Stuff like Rodney asking Appleton to step outside at the Mosconi cup. Stuff like Dechaine (not that he's the only one) sharking other pro players during a match - all that has to go away.
And other than that we need more stuff like this...