Is the U.S. Open 9-Ball Tournament tougher today because of Worldwide competition?

SouthernDraw

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Buckets!

The world championship tournaments are alternating break. It is the great equalizer. It takes away the break advantage which Shane has earned through countless hours of practice and it also takes away the ability to string packages together. This is huge when you have a top gear and giagantic break like Shanes. I dont think Shane would have won last night in the same comeback fashion if it was alternating breaks. He came from 3 games down to go up 3 games. That's excitement.

In this format, Shane is the favorite. In alternating break format, anyone in the top ten has an equal shot, it's a crap shoot.

No, they equalize it by playing on tables with 5 gallon buckets for pockets and rails that kick horribly. There are many players without the top notch breaks, that suddenly break like Billy Johnson. So when you add tons of players and many short races, World Champions could easily be knocked out by a shortstop caliber player. But, in the end, only world-class players will be able to weather the storms, with a little luck.

Having said that, I'm still surprised that SVB has played better over there. He seems to almost always go through a little funk in each tournament he plays. It's just that he seems to find a way to outrun run it most of the time.

I can't recall anyone outplaying Shane on a Diamond with pro-cut (or smaller) pockets more than once or twice. He's on the giving side more often against every player that I recall. That is, against any player that he has played against more than a just few times.

Daren - Oh, I heard maybe Little Tony, but that was before 2007
 

SouthernDraw

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Gambling?

PS Shane has lost his last three ten ball battles with Ko Pin Yi, the reigning WPA Japan Open champion, once gambling, once in an exhibition race to 25, and once in the CSI 10-ball tournament.

Where did he lose to him gambling? Guess I missed that one. Were they playing ahead or just races? I'm surprised Ko would gamble. Only because of the challenges of getting the cash getting here and then getting it back home. And will Chinese gov't allow him to keep it? Just curious about how all of that works. I guess if JB knows him, he could back him and help transfer the money home.

Daren
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes.. Shane is probably the best 9 ball… 10 ball …. player on the planet. That doesn't mean that he will win every tournament or every match… But if you line the world up to play race to 100 for cash Shane is better than a coin flip against anyone from anywhere.

Plain and Simple!

Really was he better the the Ko boys I hardy think so and there's more of those models in waiting :eek:

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sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
There are so many variables in a tournament I think you really see who the better player is when individuals match up.

...and I disagree. It is tougher to knock off champion after champion in what ever order they are presented than a single pre-selected opponent in a long race. A long race is a test of both excellence and stamina, and certainly a good test, but you've got more room for error than if you play races to eleven against one star after another.

In a one on one exhibition or gambling match, I suppose that Shane vs Ko is the best match out there, but even if Shane were to win it 100-0, I'd still be more impressed with Shane's win over a field of worldbeaters at the 2014 US Open.

Obviously, this matter is debatable and I'm just offering my own slant.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where did he lose to him gambling? Guess I missed that one. Were they playing ahead or just races? I'm surprised Ko would gamble. Only because of the challenges of getting the cash getting here and then getting it back home. And will Chinese gov't allow him to keep it? Just curious about how all of that works. I guess if JB knows him, he could back him and help transfer the money home.

Daren

JB said his backers were there willing to bet big. I don't know of any group of people that gamble more than Asians ,, that's where keno came from so my guess is after the thumping , getting a game was non existent



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sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Where did he lose to him gambling? Guess I missed that one. Were they playing ahead or just races? I'm surprised Ko would gamble. Only because of the challenges of getting the cash getting here and then getting it back home. And will Chinese gov't allow him to keep it? Just curious about how all of that works. I guess if JB knows him, he could back him and help transfer the money home.

Daren

This is second hand info, but I think it was in May or June. I'm sure that if somebody who was there reads this thread, they'll report on it.
 

SouthernDraw

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd be willing to bet he can give weight to everyone on that list besides Orcollo playing 9 or 10ball in any format. I would even stake him. Anybody wanna stake one of them???

Wu would have been a good straight up match when Wu was 17. But today... no way. Appleton maybe in 9 ball a few years ago, if the races were short enough. But, traditional gambling arena...play 8 or more hours in a poolroom and not a sterile tournament environment. Play for broke!... None of them. Of course, a spot is nothing for SVB. Ask Corey.
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All I know is this. Take 15 guys who won world titles out of the USA, then see if Shane can't give 13 of them weight playing 9 or 10 ball and horse fu them. Bet!!!!!

This cracked me up. Science fiction=sci-fi. You just started pool fiction , we can call it poo-fi
You are an awesome play but woof statements like this do not match your play :D
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
I thought you just reported it?

I heard about it from an Asian guy sitting two seats down from me during the CSI pro events in Las Vegas in July. He claimed that it was his reason for side betting on Ko during the exhibition match, and he made a good score.

Like I said, second hand --- could possibly be a fish story.

You make a good point, though, my usual policy is to only report on what I've seen and this was an exception.
 

the Professor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is second hand info, but I think it was in May or June. I'm sure that if somebody who was there reads this thread, they'll report on it.

I totally agree with you SJM that this would be the best match up for Shane in 9 or 10 ball. Fantastic Player…

I also think you are right that winning a tournament with a group of champions is really impressive. I just think that the best player will more likely win in a long race and the lesser player has a better chance to win in a tournament format. I would rather play a group of great players races to 11 than a better player a race to 30.

I also think that the truth of the matter is that there are some guys who are better tournament players and who like the shorter race format. I think this is a certain skill that some great players haven't perfected. Its tough knowing that if you lose you don't get to reload and play another set.
 
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SouthernDraw

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I totally agree with you SJM that this would be the best match up for Shane in 9 or 10 ball. Fantastic Player…

I also think you are right that winning a tournament with a group of champions is really impressive. I just think that the best player will more likely win in a long race and the lesser player has a better chance to win in a tournament format. I would rather play a group of great players races to 11 than a better player a race to 30.

I also think that the truth of the matter is that there are some guys who are better tournament players and who like the shorter race format. I think this is a certain skill that some great players haven't perfected. Its tough knowing that if you lose you don't get to reload and play another set.

TheProfessor, I agree with your last two statements. Some guys play better in tournaments. I think because some people deal with pressure better than others. Pressure is having to perform immediately, when there is not chances to catch up. But, during a long race, the players get to relax and get into a rhythm. The best player, at that time, always wins. Of course, player's skills rises and lowers with time.
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PS Shane has lost his last three ten ball battles with Ko Pin Yi, the reigning WPA Japan Open champion, once gambling, once in an exhibition race to 25, and once in the CSI 10-ball tournament.

Ko also beat Shane in 10 ball World Series of Pool final 10-4 few years ago
Big money winner $40K
And no that is not "World" title even though it has word "World" in it
And no one is saying he is World champion . Yet :)

I'm surprised Ko would gamble. Only because of the challenges of getting the cash getting here and then getting it back home. And will Chinese gov't allow him to keep it? Just curious about how all of that works. I guess if JB knows him, he could back him and help transfer the money home.

Daren
Ko is from Taiwan not China. Different country, same ethnicity. Taiwan not major issue with transfer
:)
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
JB said his backers were there willing to bet big. I don't know of any group of people that gamble more than Asians ,, that's where keno came from so my guess is after the thumping , getting a game was non existent



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I don't recall saying that anyone in particular's backers were willing to bet high. Ko and Bro were asked to match up with Shane at the CSI even in Vegas this past August and their entourage DECLINED.

That's all I know.

I consider it to be a coin flip between them.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Not sure what gambling has to do with any of this. Excellence is measured in titles, and titles alone are what get you into the hall of fame.

Arnold Palmer never won the PGA Championship, and he was, quite obviously, a better golfer than nearly everybody that ever did. Still, it's a missing piece on his competitive resume, and, in interviews, he has expressed regrets about having missed out on the career grand slam. The great ones want to win all the biggest titles, and I'm sure Shane is no different. He might just do it, too.

PS Shane has lost his last three ten ball battles with Ko Pin Yi, the reigning WPA Japan Open champion, once gambling, once in an exhibition race to 25, and once in the CSI 10-ball tournament.

Excellence is not measured in titles alone. If so then Bustamante is a hack compared to some others.

The problem comes when people want to use a lack of titles to run a player down. That's just not a fair comparison.

Winning titles is a combination of skill AND luck. Many factors contribute to winning ANY tournament and in any tournament there are generally many times where the ultimate winner could have been eliminated but for a few fortunate rolls here and there.

What does "gambling" have to do with it? Well for one thing the race to 100 format isn't gambling in the "hustling" sense. it's more like a boxing match. In the old old days World Titles were won this way and at one point iirc if any world champion refused a head's up match for the world title then they would automatically lose it. Most of Mosconi's titles were won in head to head matches.

The great Willie Hoppe traveled to France to play a long billiards match with Andre "the Lion" Gaganeux. A match which was front page page news for three days with furious betting on both sides. It was this match which propelled Willie Hoppe to worldwide fame after he won it.

I personally think that the heads up match is the ultimate test between two individuals. As Tracy Joe Salazar said to me, in the old days you went after a player and if he beat you then you regrouped and tried again and you kept trying until you could beat him, no one and done and run. To me a race to 100 pretty much settles the question between two players as to who is better and if they complete one and still aren't sure then they should go again.

Being willing to step into the box one-on-one against any other living human is something to be admired. Titles are great and I agree that every player wants them. Anyone willing to go head to head against title holders though is someone to be respected not only for their skill but also for their guts.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Excellence is not measured in titles alone. If so then Bustamante is a hack compared to some others.

The problem comes when people want to use a lack of titles to run a player down. That's just not a fair comparison.

Winning titles is a combination of skill AND luck. Many factors contribute to winning ANY tournament and in any tournament there are generally many times where the ultimate winner could have been eliminated but for a few fortunate rolls here and there.

What does "gambling" have to do with it? Well for one thing the race to 100 format isn't gambling in the "hustling" sense. it's more like a boxing match. In the old old days World Titles were won this way and at one point iirc if any world champion refused a head's up match for the world title then they would automatically lose it. Most of Mosconi's titles were won in head to head matches.

The great Willie Hoppe traveled to France to play a long billiards match with Andre "the Lion" Gaganeux. A match which was front page page news for three days with furious betting on both sides. It was this match which propelled Willie Hoppe to worldwide fame after he won it.

I personally think that the heads up match is the ultimate test between two individuals. As Tracy Joe Salazar said to me, in the old days you went after a player and if he beat you then you regrouped and tried again and you kept trying until you could beat him, no one and done and run. To me a race to 100 pretty much settles the question between two players as to who is better and if they complete one and still aren't sure then they should go again.

Being willing to step into the box one-on-one against any other living human is something to be admired. Titles are great and I agree that every player wants them. Anyone willing to go head to head against title holders though is someone to be respected not only for their skill but also for their guts.

I agree that this is a type of excellence that shows guts and skill, but there is no greater test than being asked to beating champion after champion with no control over who you will have to beat and in what sequence. The reason we all revere the Johnston City champions (e.g., Lassiter is that we know every great player was there). It's the same reason we revere the 2014 US Open champion. He won with practically every great player present, and that's what it's all about.

The BCA Hall of Fame looks at a player's tournament resume, not at their gambling resume, to determine who is deserving of entry (obviously not talking about the "meritorious service" HOF category here). That's as it should be. Some will say it's all about the money, but it isn't. That's why someone like Jack Cooney isn't in the HOF. It's also the reason that the "C" player that beat his friend out of $5,000,000 playing 8-ball isn't in the HOF.

The long gambling match is a novelty, nothing more. It can be fun to watch but it's a sideshow, not the crux of pool.

Hope you're well, John.
 

nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
What that list shows me is that the asian players only play in asia and qatar. (other than Wang Can)

It also shows me that SVB, Hohman, Soquet, Niels, etc all play in The China Open, but your list doesn't play in the US Open.

This US Open had a field that was on par with most of the biggest tournaments in the world. Even if the asians didn't want to come play.

Both of the Ko brothers beat Shane at the BCA in July. Who knows why they didn't stay until the US Open or come back. Maybe they heard about the payment problems last year and just decided it wasn't worth it. Seems to be the right decision at this point.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB said his backers were there willing to bet big. I don't know of any group of people that gamble more than Asians ,, that's where keno came from so my guess is after the thumping , getting a game was non existent



1

I don't recall saying that anyone in particular's backers were willing to bet high. Ko and Bro were asked to match up with Shane at the CSI even in Vegas this past August and their entourage DECLINED.

That's all I know.

I consider it to be a coin flip between them.

Really well I remeber it clearly .. and I don't recall ever hearing they were offered a game until now ,,was that before or after the race to 21 ,,,


1
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Really well I remeber it clearly .. and I don't recall ever hearing they were offered a game until now ,,was that before or after the race to 21 ,,,


1

Forgive him, he has selective amnesia :grin: :grin:

jlo_Selective-Amnesia.jpg
 
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