Is this a foul?
- Thread starter alstl
- Start date
Technically it IS a Foul because of an illegal break. No contact, 4 balls didn't hit a rail, etc.
BUT
Most players play gentlemen rules here and look the other way. If you wanted to be a dick about it you could start something I suppose.
Personally, I chalk it up as a few extra Karma points for me by letting them shoot again.
BUT
Most players play gentlemen rules here and look the other way. If you wanted to be a dick about it you could start something I suppose.
Personally, I chalk it up as a few extra Karma points for me by letting them shoot again.
It was a tournament with a referee.
You're talking about Henny and Bowman in the Midnight Madness Finals. That situation was ruled as a no foul because the cue ball did not leave the kitchen. I don't think it is actually a foul to tap it while about to break unless you double hit it. However it might be. I'd never call that lame foul. I feel like unless they miscue they should have an opportunity to break. So I dont call any of the lame, practice stroke taps or when they are getting down there cue touches the ball or any other lame foul before the break.
Lame rule, gentleman's agreement... good sport...
How come this is only considered on the BREAK... why not during the game?
What is so significant about the break that it gets all this special consideration?
The break is a shot, just like any other shot of a game. If you foul on this shot it is the same as fouling on any other shot.
Why the special consideration?
How come this is only considered on the BREAK... why not during the game?
What is so significant about the break that it gets all this special consideration?
The break is a shot, just like any other shot of a game. If you foul on this shot it is the same as fouling on any other shot.
Why the special consideration?
Play by the rules
crosses the line ,the game is on.Therfore this is a foul.
A ref HAS to call foul-rules don't recognize gentlemen's agreements.
I confess i've let it slide but i was wrong.
Rules are so 2 people who don't like each other can compete honorably.
Most tournaments i've played in specify-when the base of the ball
crosses the line ,the game is on.Therfore this is a foul.
A ref HAS to call foul-rules don't recognize gentlemen's agreements.
I confess i've let it slide but i was wrong.
Rules are so 2 people who don't like each other can compete honorably.
It wasn't the finals, I went to bed before the finals. It was an earlier match and the ball did roll out of the kitchen.
Players
confuse this rule all the time. In 9 ball, the game begins when the cue ball is struck and goes past the Kitchen, so yes, it is a foul. This becomes the other player's option to have him try to break again, or to break himself.
In 8 ball, the game begins when the cue ball strikes the rack, so if they had been playing 8 ball, it would not be a foul.
confuse this rule all the time. In 9 ball, the game begins when the cue ball is struck and goes past the Kitchen, so yes, it is a foul. This becomes the other player's option to have him try to break again, or to break himself.
In 8 ball, the game begins when the cue ball strikes the rack, so if they had been playing 8 ball, it would not be a foul.
In a tournament is it the other player's option or the referee?
There in lies the problem..
Which rule is correct?
When does the game begin?
Maybe this would be a GREAT question in the player's meeting prior to any tournament.
If you have 50 players, there is a good chance that they all know the rules from 50 different pool halls from 50 different players telling them their version of the RULES.
Which rules do you use? more often than not, YOU use the rules you know and to hell with the Tournament rules. Yeah... this makes for good sportsmanship and great guidance for the new players just learning.
Which rule is correct?
When does the game begin?
Maybe this would be a GREAT question in the player's meeting prior to any tournament.
If you have 50 players, there is a good chance that they all know the rules from 50 different pool halls from 50 different players telling them their version of the RULES.
Which rules do you use? more often than not, YOU use the rules you know and to hell with the Tournament rules. Yeah... this makes for good sportsmanship and great guidance for the new players just learning.
Official BCAPL response
Don't have a clue about the rules for the OP match, but I have been PM'd about the BCAPL ruling. It is both a foul and an illegal break under BCAPL rules.
BCAPL Rule 1.17 - "Your match or game begins when the cue tip strikes the cue ball during any stroke on the opening break."
After that, it is a foul because no legal object ball was contacted, and it is an illegal break because no ball was pocketed nor the required number of balls driven to a rail. Penalties are assigned in accordance with the specific game being played.
It is also a foul and an illegal break under WSR, though the path is slightly more circuitous, since WSR does not define the "beginning" of a game:
All games begin with the shooter having BIH behind the head string, so WSR 1.5 applies, and the shooter: '...may continue to move the ball until he executes a shot..."
After that WSR 8.2 takes over: "A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball...", with no provision anywhere else in WSR for additional conditions (striking rack, crossing the head string, whatever else).
After that, same as in BCAPL. The shot is not legal because no ball contacted/pocketed/driven to rail. Foul and illegal break.
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
Don't have a clue about the rules for the OP match, but I have been PM'd about the BCAPL ruling. It is both a foul and an illegal break under BCAPL rules.
BCAPL Rule 1.17 - "Your match or game begins when the cue tip strikes the cue ball during any stroke on the opening break."
After that, it is a foul because no legal object ball was contacted, and it is an illegal break because no ball was pocketed nor the required number of balls driven to a rail. Penalties are assigned in accordance with the specific game being played.
It is also a foul and an illegal break under WSR, though the path is slightly more circuitous, since WSR does not define the "beginning" of a game:
All games begin with the shooter having BIH behind the head string, so WSR 1.5 applies, and the shooter: '...may continue to move the ball until he executes a shot..."
After that WSR 8.2 takes over: "A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball...", with no provision anywhere else in WSR for additional conditions (striking rack, crossing the head string, whatever else).
After that, same as in BCAPL. The shot is not legal because no ball contacted/pocketed/driven to rail. Foul and illegal break.
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
Thanks for posting the actual rule. I've always played no foul, let him shoot again but I wasn't sure what the rule was in a tournament.
When I'm breaking hill/hill vs Efren in the finals of the U S Open I'll be careful not to do that.
Its happened to us in Scotch. I let them break again, as in one posted said, its a good karma thing. Also hoping that they break dry.
Its a gentleman thing and see if during the match, they might return the favor if it happens to you.
Its a gentleman thing and see if during the match, they might return the favor if it happens to you.
I have a great story about this rule. I played in a league a few years ago and it was a foul to touch the cue ball during the break. I was playing the deciding match and accidentally touched the cue ball during the break. I looked at my opponent and he said go ahead and break. I broke and put the 8 ball in on the break and we won the match.
Fast forward two years. I'm playing in a different league all together with the same exact rule and for the last game of a match. I did the same thing and tapped the 8 ball and the opponent said go ahead and break. I broke and made the 8 ball again on the break. After I did it I realized...it was the same exact guy from two years earlier and these were the only two times I've ever played him.
He didn't really appreciate being reminded of it!!! But I thought it was funny.
Fast forward two years. I'm playing in a different league all together with the same exact rule and for the last game of a match. I did the same thing and tapped the 8 ball and the opponent said go ahead and break. I broke and made the 8 ball again on the break. After I did it I realized...it was the same exact guy from two years earlier and these were the only two times I've ever played him.
He didn't really appreciate being reminded of it!!! But I thought it was funny.
