Is this a foul?

B

bigdaddy58

Registered
Playing a guy yesterday, 6 ahead set for $100. He's down 3, has a tough cut on the 9. Cue ball very close to 9 ball. When he cuts the ball (he makes it) the cue ball bounces off the rail and comes in contact with his cue, altering the path of the cueball. I called foul. He says it has to touch the tip, not just the cue. I said if it touched any part of his stick altering the path, it's afoul. Any opinions?
 
If it touches his tip twice, it's a double hit. If it touches anything else other than balls or table, it's just a foul. Either way, yeah, he's full of crap.
 
Y a foul?

bigdaddy58 said:
Playing a guy yesterday, 6 ahead set for $100. He's down 3, has a tough cut on the 9. Cue ball very close to 9 ball. When he cuts the ball (he makes it) the cue ball bounces off the rail and comes in contact with his cue, altering the path of the cueball. I called foul. He says it has to touch the tip, not just the cue. I said if it touched any part of his stick altering the path, it's afoul. Any opinions?
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Always a foul on days that end in Y.
 
FOUL!

6.6 Touched Ball (WPA 9-ball rules)
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Dave
 
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12squared said:
FOUL!

6.6 Touched Ball (WPA 9-ball rules)
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Dave
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Is there a section that states it's still a foul after the shot has been made? I think the scenario from the OP is that he makes the 9 ball and fouls the cue ball after connecting with the 9.
 
Foul...but you are $300 winner.

You didn't say what the set's score was, but I might let him keep it- letting him know that if it happens again I am calling it- coz he is obv desperate for the W.
 
walrus_3d said:
Is there a section that states it's still a foul after the shot has been made? I think the scenario from the OP is that he makes the 9 ball and fouls the cue ball after connecting with the 9.
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The shot does not end until all balls stop moving and spinning. One of the most common uncalled fouls at nineball is when the player makes the nine and picks up the cue ball before it has stopped rolling. Leave the cue ball alone.
 
bigdaddy58 said:
Playing a guy yesterday, 6 ahead set for $100. He's down 3, has a tough cut on the 9. Cue ball very close to 9 ball. When he cuts the ball (he makes it) the cue ball bounces off the rail and comes in contact with his cue, altering the path of the cueball. I called foul. He says it has to touch the tip, not just the cue. I said if it touched any part of his stick altering the path, it's afoul. Any opinions?
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hahahahahaha. That's a good one. That's the best funny of the morning.
 
walrus_3d said:
Is there a section that states it's still a foul after the shot has been made? I think the scenario from the OP is that he makes the 9 ball and fouls the cue ball after connecting with the 9.
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Bob Jewett is the master of the rules so that should be enough. But if it isn't:

6.9 Balls Still Moving
It is a foul to begin a shot while any ball in play is moving or spinning.

This can easily be interpreted that the shot is not over until all balls in play stop moving or spinning, including the cue ball. (Common sense that if you cannot begin another shot before everything comes to a halt, than the inning is not over). It doesn't matter if the winning ball was pocketed first.

However, would you have called a foul if he picked up the cue ball after making the nine while still moving if there was no way it would have scratched? Calling the foul is up to you as Black-Balled mentioned, but it is a foul and your right to call it.

Dave
 
12squared said:
Bob Jewett is the master of the rules so that should be enough. But if it isn't:

6.9 Balls Still Moving
It is a foul to begin a shot while any ball in play is moving or spinning.

This can easily be interpreted that the shot is not over until all balls in play stop moving or spinning, including the cue ball. (Common sense that if you cannot begin another shot before everything comes to a halt, than the inning is not over). It doesn't matter if the winning ball was pocketed first.

However, would you have called a foul if he picked up the cue ball after making the nine while still moving if there was no way it would have scratched? Calling the foul is up to you as Black-Balled mentioned, but it is a foul and your right to call it.

Dave
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Well, yeah, I know it's a foul, I just wanted to know what the precise wording was. Sometimes you lose something in the translation, or you have to interpret a section of the rules that doesn't apply in order to find the ruling on your situation. For instance, in the APA manual, it states that you must break from inside the kitchen, but it doesn't define the kitchen in the section on breaking. Later on, when describing what you can or can't shoot at (when you have BIH in the kitchen), it defines what "in" and "out" of the kitchen are, so you can extrapolate that as a definition of the kitchen for breaking, but it is still an interpretation of the rule rather than a clear statement in the rule book.

Technically, the sections on Fouls should include the precise wording that fouls apply from the break of the rack until the last ball has stopped moving on the last shot. I don't think I've ever seen a set of rules that says that, but it's true in every game, every league, and on every table.
 
Black-Balled said:
Foul...but you are $300 winner.

You didn't say what the set's score was, but I might let him keep it- letting him know that if it happens again I am calling it- coz he is obv desperate for the W.
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I agree with you! If the cue ball was not on line to scratch, just warn your opponent. In the 70's before all the rules were established this happened a lot. After making the 9 they would rake the cue ball to the side rail with their cue stick before it stopped, this caused a lot of controversy at time if the cue ball had a chance of scratching.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The shot does not end until all balls stop moving and spinning. One of the most common uncalled fouls at nineball is when the player makes the nine and picks up the cue ball before it has stopped rolling. Leave the cue ball alone.
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During an ESPN telecast of a pro match one year at the BCA they briefly showed some of the 8-ball league championships...one team member made the 8 ball to win the match and then threw her cue onto the table right into the cueball as it was headed quickly down table in the direction of the corner pocket. I immediately said "foul!" while watching the telecast, but to my amazement no one said anything on either team, nor did the referee.
 
onepocketron said:
Anytime you hit a ball that changes it's path it is a fowl. In this case it is a no brainer.
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Unless one is a chicken. And duck is a bird.

I see now that I misread the OP...shooter was not 3 sets loser.

Tough call. Anybody who bets $100 should know the rules, so I would be inclined to say he has a high probability of further trouble. But then, them's the risks of playing for money.
 
bigdaddy58 said:
Playing a guy yesterday, 6 ahead set for $100. He's down 3, has a tough cut on the 9. Cue ball very close to 9 ball. When he cuts the ball (he makes it) the cue ball bounces off the rail and comes in contact with his cue, altering the path of the cueball. I called foul. He says it has to touch the tip, not just the cue. I said if it touched any part of his stick altering the path, it's afoul. Any opinions?
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Thats silly. What if it was going to scratch and you used the butt of the cue to stop the cue ball? According to your opponents logic that would be legal since the ball didn't hit the tip again. Blatant foul but its up to you whether to call it or not
 
bigdaddy58 said:
Playing a guy yesterday, 6 ahead set for $100. He's down 3, has a tough cut on the 9. Cue ball very close to 9 ball. When he cuts the ball (he makes it) the cue ball bounces off the rail and comes in contact with his cue, altering the path of the cueball. I called foul. He says it has to touch the tip, not just the cue. I said if it touched any part of his stick altering the path, it's afoul. Any opinions?
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Was your opponent an AZ member?
 
walrus_3d said:
Well, yeah, I know it's a foul, I just wanted to know what the precise wording was. ...
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The World Standardized Rules have the following definition of a shot:

8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot.​

so the shot in the OP was clearly a foul shot.
 
Foul all day.

You should have gone up to him and asked, "Do you believe in Karma?"

If he said "Yes", then you punch him straight in the nose and say, "What did you do to deserve that?"

If he said "No", then you call foul, spot the 9 ball and take ball in hand and shoot it straight in. OR, like others have said, give him a freebie with a warning that if he disturbs any ball while in motion with any part of the stick or his body it's a foul.
 
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