Is this a foul?

We can all count to three (I hope - we'd be shite at 9-ball otherwise). Not sure why anyone needs to warn anyone. Is that actually a written rule? I lost a rack to three foul rule this weekend. No one said anything to me. Not the player or any referee (there's three split between the 20 or so tables and one doing the main live-streamed tables). I just accepted I fouled three times. What kind of jerk would I be if I contested that he never asked? As a foreigner, I bet I'd have caused some scenes hahaha
Learning new things all the time here :ROFLMAO:
Bob Jewett said:
In the past I've pointed out to him as I've come to the table on two that he is required to warn me. But the vast majority of my opponents know about three fouls.
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gordml said:
OK. I agree that the ball could not have been frozen because Yapp is not a cheat.
But i still think the situation is weird.
If Yapps opponent stays in his seat he doesnt know if its frozen or not. Like I said originally players rarely check.
So if the ball is frozen Yapp could easily play the shot the way he did knowing he can never be called for cheating.
Even if it was on a stream and somebody caught it, Yapp could easily argue he didnt know it was frozen and its his responsibility to tell me.
Anyway I guess it just boils down to the honor system with players when there is no ref.

.
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Yes, you are correct on this point. (There might have been a ref, in which case it was probably his duty to call. This was a semifinal match in a major event).

Still, it's reaching at a "player" level. Beginning players that don't know any better might do what you are suggesting. Experienced players, not even professional level, only experienced club level players in my personal experience would not do this.

YMMV:)
 
Flakeandrun said:
... Is that actually a written rule? I lost a rack to three foul rule this weekend. No one said anything to me. ...
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I have no idea what rule set you were playing by but the World Standardized Rules are available on the WPA website. Here you go:

wpapool.com

Rules

Navigate the rules and regulations of pool with ease. Stay informed and play fair with WPA Rules!
wpapool.com wpapool.com
 
Bob Jewett said:
I have no idea what rule set you were playing by but the World Standardized Rules are available on the WPA website. Here you go:

wpapool.com

Rules

Navigate the rules and regulations of pool with ease. Stay informed and play fair with WPA Rules!
wpapool.com wpapool.com
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What I mean is, I know that if I foul three times I lose. I accept that. Like most fouls, I don't need to be told. I accept them - I spoke before about cultural differences between US/EU and different areas in Asia in another thread.
I am new to the game (nearly 1 year playing now). There is also a language barrier, given that I play in China. I didn't actually know I had to be given a warning in any context actually. So it is good for me to know this. Next time I will cause some controversy :)

They are playing WPA, and with the MR break format.
 
Flakeandrun said:
... I didn't actually know I had to be given a warning in any context actually. ...
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There is a similar rule in snooker wherein a player must be warned that he must hit a ball on or he will lose the frame.

The requirement in pool has been around for decades.
 
Bob Jewett said:
There is a similar rule in snooker wherein a player must be warned that he must hit a ball on or he will lose the frame.

The requirement in pool has been around for decades.
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I mean, you cannot deliberately foul in snooker to begin with. If the shot is considered a deliberate foul, it is taken as a concession of the frame. In tournament play, I have always played that balls are replaced until the player concedes the frame, or the opponent chooses to take the next shot. Perhaps there is some of the newer snooker tournament formats that have this ruling? Like shoot-out, smaller open events or something? something to speed up play.

It was my understanding that the reason the three foul rule in pool existed in the first place was to acknowledge, and then create some fairness in play when considering tactical fouling?

Regardless, I was unaware I had to be informed. Now that I know, I will use my judgement to decide when to be a real prick about It lol (as I said, I generally acknowledge that three fouls is a loss - Much like touching an object ball, or not hitting a cushion is a foul. My brain will always just accept these things without being told (In the 'spirit of the game'))
 
Flakeandrun said:
...Perhaps there is some of the newer snooker tournament formats that have this ruling?...
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It is a standard part of snooker and has been for a long time. It applies when you could strike a ball full in the face and have failed to do so twice from the same position. Players in major professional tournaments have forfeited frames several times in YouTube matches for violations of the rule. The referee has always warned them.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It is a standard part of snooker and has been for a long time. It applies when you could strike a ball full in the face and have failed to do so twice from the same position. Players in major professional tournaments have forfeited frames several times in YouTube matches for violations of the rule. The referee has always warned them.
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I have always had the rule I have posted below enforced in tournament play. From U13 - U19 tournaments. I just asked my father (a player who has played many tournaments around the UK, and in Europe on a few occasions), and he also agrees that this is the ruling.

As I said, perhaps there are some formats that operate the rule that you are stating to speed up play? Might even be a product of MR? I don't know.

All I know, is if it is deemed to be a deliberate foul, it doesn't even get another chance, it is a concession of the frame. As far as a foul, you can have the balls replaced infinite times, until the legal shot or a concession is made. So these forfeits will be the result of player choice, because the situation has created a difference in points that is unreachable. It is not a referee enforced forfeiture, but a players choice to concede (as I said though, I could see why some tournaments may operate some kind of limit to this - for the sake of the referee having to put all the balls back, and the viewers being bored to death)

As I said in the above post, my understanding is that the reason the three foul rule in pool existed in the first place to acknowledge, and then create some fairness in play when considering tactical fouling. As a deliberate foul is not considered a concession in pool, nor are the balls replaced. Therefore a foul could be quite advantageous in some circumstances.

I was just unaware that a physical warning by player, or referee needed to take place. I would have just accepted I made three fouls and handed the ball to the opponent. I will probably still not need to be 'warned' (in the spirit of sportsmanship), unless the other player is being a jerk :)


Screenshot 2023-11-28 at 10.30.56.png
 
Bob Jewett said:
It is a standard part of snooker and has been for a long time. It applies when you could strike a ball full in the face and have failed to do so twice from the same position. Players in major professional tournaments have forfeited frames several times in YouTube matches for violations of the rule. The referee has always warned them.
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I perhaps see the confusion here. Are you are talking about when there is no ball snookered, and the player fails to contact a ball? Not a shot played from a snookered position?

A shot that has no impediment or reason beyond shot choice for not making appropriate contact? Playing to escape from a snooker, as far as I am aware, as long as you are making every effort to hit the ball. You can keep on cracking away.

I believe this was last revised in the mid-2010's.

Anyway, the wording of the ruling is about as clear as mud lol The 3 miss rule is designed to reduce deliberate fouls (or “professional fouls”) and I am aware that players have been awarded frames due to this - a 'miss' and a 'foul and a miss' are different things in this context. I will ask my friend. He is a qualified referee :) Thanks for being so helpful and interested
 
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Bob Jewett said:
It is a standard part of snooker and has been for a long time. It applies when you could strike a ball full in the face and have failed to do so twice from the same position. Players in major professional tournaments have forfeited frames several times in YouTube matches for violations of the rule. The referee has always warned them.
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Clarified with my friend who is a qualified referee. It seems you're right with regard to the ruling on 3-shots in certain circumstance here Bob. Top knowledge. The ruling was altered in the 90s, revision made in 2010s. I have been reading a lot of the comments about such ruling from professionals. Mark Williams had some interesting thoughts regarding bringing 'Ball in hand' into the game.

But it is a matter of semantics, and in actuality the rule is about as clear as mud. As I mentioned above, If you are snookered and can't see a full red then you can fou/miss as much as you want and you wouldn't lose the frame (not that you would want to miss). But, if you can see a full red ball, but you decide to play a different shot, from a cushion or something, to play better safety, but you miss it twice and foul, then the referee will give you a warning that you can see a full red. Then, if you miss again you will concede the frame.

I still believe there are some tournaments that are a little more liberal than others, and there has been some controversy surrounding it on more than one occasion. I will do a bit more looking when I have a break. Maybe it's been too long since myself, or my father have played anyone except local league stuff, or friends. I've played no one except a Shanghainese friend who destroys me every so often (and the odd friend here), for the last four years.

Seems even avid enthusiasts don't always stay abreast of the rules - Here I am, back to feeling sorry for Chang Jun Lin, pushing his ball forward with one hand lol :ROFLMAO:
 
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