# Is This a Legal Shot?

#### Neil

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd be interested in understanding how the CB could ever hit the OB, when they are both traveling on a straight or similar path and no rails are involved, and there isn't a double hit on the CB. There are some really simple physics involved here making that quite impossible. The CB loses energy when it hits the OB, the OB gets that transferred energy. If the CB hits the OB square on and the CB isn't rolling. It stops dead. The two objects weigh the same. If the CB hits the OB with top spin, it momentarily stops just as it would if it were skidding, then the top spin causes it to roll forward again. There isn't a circumstance where that top spin would cause the CB to ever catch up and hit the OB.

Well, actually, there is a trick shot where you forward masse' the cb and it actually goes around the ob and goes into the pocket before the ob goes in.

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'd be interested in understanding how the CB could ever hit the OB, when they are both traveling on a straight or similar path and no rails are involved, and there isn't a double hit on the CB.
This could be done with a close-range, highly-elevated jump shot, where the CB barely hits the OB on the way up, heading mostly vertical, and then lands on the OB for a 2nd hit.

Another example is the classic "passing lane" trick shot. The CB could easily hit the OB a 2nd time if if doesn't fully overtake and pass the OB. Here's a video showing the CB catching and passing the OB:

HSV B.16 - Classic "passing lane" trick shot

Enjoy,
Dave

PS to Neil: I just saw your post with the same idea (for the 2nd part).

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#### Old Nine Baller

##### Banned
Well, actually, there is a trick shot where you forward masse' the cb and it actually goes around the ob and goes into the pocket before the ob goes in.

There is a different version of that shot on this video at the 50 sec. mark. George Middleditch would shoot this with both balls frozen to the siderail and make the cueball beat the object ball in the corner, just barely.

ONB

#### nobcitypool

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another example is the classic "passing lane" trick shot. The CB could easily hit the OB a 2nd time if if doesn't fully overtake and pass the OB. Here's a video showing the CB catching and passing the OB:

HSV B.16 - Classic "passing lane" trick shot

I'd like to see that done without a double hit. The shot to have the CB hit the OB a different time would be slightly different than the one to pass and overtake it. It may be possible, I don't know.

Regardless, this is hardly applicable to the argument regarding the foul shot for a double hit that was brought up in the first post of this thread.

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'd like to see that done without a double hit. The shot to have the CB hit the OB a different time would be slightly different than the one to pass and overtake it. It may be possible, I don't know.
That would be easy. Give it a try when you get a chance. The hard part is actually overtaking and passing the OB.

Regardless, this is hardly applicable to the argument regarding the foul shot for a double hit that was brought up in the first post of this thread.
Several different shots have been discussed in this thread. I didn't know you were referring to the original shot. I just thought you were wondering if what you described could be done in general.

Sorry for the confusion,
Dave

#### Sloppy Pockets

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
See, no jacking up required. CB was 1/2" away from 1-ball. You can see in the photo that the "ghost" ball contacts the 1-ball with a mere 1/16" or so space on either side. No room for even the slightest forward motion from whitey. Lassiter woulda been proud of me. :thumbup:

Bottom line is that if the CB moves forward after backspin has been applied on a close shot, you double-hit it, even if you didn't feel or hear the second hit.

https://vimeo.com/109752301

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• Close Draw Trick.jpg
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#### BRussell

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd call a foul on that shot Sloppy Pockets.

#### Tbo

##### Registered
It sounded like a double hit to me.

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow. Great shot sloppy pockets.

#### mamics

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow sloppy - you can pull off that shot but u cant jump a ball ? WTF ???

#### Sloppy Pockets

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow sloppy - you can pull off that shot but u cant jump a ball ? WTF ???

I can pull off all kinds of shots that a C player shouldn't be expected to make, but I'm still a C player. A lot more to the game than just shot making unfortunately.

Like I said earlier in this thread, last night I was able to do this shot with only 1/4" separation (but it took several attempts for sure). At that small separation it is impossible to get enough energy into the CB for it to draw back strongly. I got maybe 4-5" of draw on the ball, but I did get the 1-ball all the way up to the far short rail and back about a foot or so.

Not that I'd ever attempt a low percentage shot like that in a game, but I can usually nail it every time by jacking up a bit and hitting down to get the spin required. I've found it's very easy to stop the ball at short distances, but if you aren't careful you can double-hit it and it's hard for others to tell. Looks like a stop shot except for can feel it. However, if you draw it back it's hard for someone to claim it's a foul because that second hit would surely have stopped the ball in its tracks and it wouldn't draw at all after that.

#### Sloppy Pockets

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It sounded like a double hit to me.

When I posted this video I really hadn't listened to it very carefully. The hit felt good, the balls reacted the way they should, so I didn't think there would be anyone calling it as a possible foul.

After reading a few posters who suspected it to be a foul, I took a careful listen. To my ears there is not the high-pitched click that usually accompanies the side of the shaft hitting the ball. There seems to be a trace of ball hop sound as the backspin lifted the OB up a few thousandths or so. That's what my table sounds like when such things happen, even at distances well outside of the foul range.

I was bored this afternoon, so I went through the hit sequence frame-by-frame and cropped each frame to show just the action. Each frame represents about 1/30th of a second.

In frame 2 you can see that the cue tip is just about to contact the CB. The CB hasn't moved yet.

In frames 3 and 4 you can see the extent of the follow through. Less than 1/2" of follow through, otherwise I would have run into the ball again as it sat there spinning for an instant. The two blocker balls would have been sent flying at that point as well.

In frame 5 you can see the CB still sitting there before the backspin took hold, but the cue had already been drawn back almost an inch, so it could not have been able to hit the ball. I estimate the elapsed time between contact and this point to be about 1/10th of a second or less.

In frame 6 you can see the draw finally taking hold, but the cue tip is now almost a ball diameter away.

In the remaining frames you can see that the CB is finally drawing back, but the cue is nowhere to be seen, having been withdrawn way back at this point.

If there is still any doubt at this point I'd be curious to hear what Mr. Jewett or Dr. Dave thinks about the shot. If I am missing something, I'd sure as hell like to know what it is, but to me, this is a fair hit with plenty of ball action for the very short stroke distance needed to make it without a double hit occurring.

#### Attachments

• Close Draw Sequence.jpg
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#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
See, no jacking up required. CB was 1/2" away from 1-ball. You can see in the photo that the "ghost" ball contacts the 1-ball with a mere 1/16" or so space on either side.
...

The hit felt good, the balls reacted the way they should, so I didn't think there would be anyone calling it as a possible foul.
...
If there is still any doubt at this point I'd be curious to hear what Mr. Jewett or Dr. Dave thinks about the shot.
...
That was definitely a good hit. As you pointed out, if you had double-hit the CB, the CB definitely would have hit the obstacle balls.

I think the sound of the shot is normal. It can be difficult to judge what is happening from the sound alone because there are several sounds occurring over a very short time (tip-CB-hit sound, CB-OB-hit sound, CB-into-slate sound due to slight elevation of cue, and maybe slight CB and/or OB hop due to slight cue elevation).

Now, if you want to try an even smaller gap (much less then 1/2" is possible), try the technique in the following videos. You can get stop, draw, or follow at even closer range with this technique.

NV B.49 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and stop the cue ball, with Bob Jewett
NV B.50 - Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and get follow, with Bob Jewett

Regards,
Dave

#### Petros Andrikop

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
About the initial shot, and such shots in general: besides stroke methods and rules each case is unique and tough to judge.
Benefit of a doubt remains with the shooter and especially with modern rules chances for calling fouls are much less in such cases.
Petros

#### StraightPoolIU

##### Brent
Silver Member
I didn't want to search the entire thread for the exact post, but I know some folks were wondering about the term "45 degrees" being in any rule sets as to what the shooter must do with the cue in order to avoid a foul. I found this today while I was reading the VNEA rules:

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS: It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called.

Oddly enough this only concerns instances when the OB and CB are frozen together which by BCA rules would allow you to shoot through the ball with a normal stroke. Also, I'm not entirely sure what "other than at least 45 degrees above" means, but I would take that to mean elevating the cue.

#### Sloppy Pockets

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't want to search the entire thread for the exact post, but I know some folks were wondering about the term "45 degrees" being in any rule sets as to what the shooter must do with the cue in order to avoid a foul. I found this today while I was reading the VNEA rules:

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS: It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called.

Oddly enough this only concerns instances when the OB and CB are frozen together which by BCA rules would allow you to shoot through the ball with a normal stroke. Also, I'm not entirely sure what "other than at least 45 degrees above" means, but I would take that to mean elevating the cue.

That's crazy! Obviously whoever made up that rule doesn't fully understand what constitutes a push, nor do they understand under what circumstances a double-hit foul would occur.

My guess? Bob Jewett was not on the VNEA rules committee.

#### scsuxci

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This shot isn't even close to being legal. I don't think there's a referee that
would be calling this a good shot, well at least not on Earth.

#### scsuxci

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You might be able to hit the shot without a double hit. Explain how you jack up, creating back spin, and the cb subsequently follows the ob down the table? Try separating the balls by 4"and then reproduce that shot.

I think people get confused between a ''Push shot'' and a 'double hit'. I wouldn't say it was a double hit but clearly a push shot.

#### KRJ

##### Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Just watched the shot. Sorry, don't have time to read all the posts, but a couple thought it was a good hit.

NO FUGGIN WAY. FOUL and not even close. I'd get bih, and laugh all the way to running the rack out

#### HelloBaby-

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's impossible to create the follow-through motion on the cue ball when the the cue ball is that close to the object ball. No matter how you hit the CB, the CB will be stopped by the OB almost immediately.
You can try to imagine that in your head. It's no rocket science .
if the CB move forward after the contact, it's 100% foul, the only way the CB move forward is because the tip hit it 2nd time ( double hit ).
the only way to make a correct hit is play a masse shot. In that case the cb will either stop, deflect no more than 90 degree ( ANY forward motion is foul ), or draw back.