Is This an Illusion?

L

LastTwo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A few years ago a friend of mine who is a well known professional player taught me some positional shots involving inside english that alot of people don't seem to know about. Some of the shots I posted on this board and they were disputed by Colin Colenso. Colin is fairly well known on this board and it is my guess he has a ton of knowledge about the game. He told me that some of the shots I posted are not possible. The next day with this on my mind I started practicing those shots again and sure enough I can do them. I play on regular simonis cloth, nothing different than what the average player shoots on. What I want to know is, how many of you can execute these shots? For some of them it takes me two or three tries until I can execute the proper "hit" on these shots, but they sure as hell can be done. Here are some of them:

START(
%A`1N2%BD4K4%P[2S2%QC9S0%RD0M8%SD2F7%UF0H0%V_9N7%Wr8C9%X_6N7
%Y_2N9%Z[3R9%[F2S9%\_5N6%]E6N6%^_5N6
)END

Inside draw (right) takes me to A. Center draw takes me to B, and outside draw (left) takes me to C.

START(
%An7L5%Pp9S9%QF0T5%RF1M3%WH4U2%Xn7L9%YG2N2%Zn5L9%[n8M6%\p7S9
%]r8D6%^n4L6
)END

I can get to A with low inside (right). I can get to B with either center draw or center left.

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%Ae7M5%Pa0S2%WD2[2%Xd8M9%Yd9N0%Za1S1%[s0D2%\e8M3%eC1b3

)END

On this shot I can actually scratch in the corner with low inside (right). I am unable to do that with center draw or outside.

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%AR6F6%PW9H4%W_0H7%XR9F5%YE3D4%ZR2F3%[S6G0%\X0H3%eA6b5

)END

On this one I am definately not cheating the pocket, and I can get the cueball to draw back off the 1 as if I shot it straight in, using low inside (left).

What do you guys think? Am I being decieved by my own eyes? Do these shots look impossible to you? I didn't use the curvy lines because I don't know where the cueball begins to curve at, and the curve is very slight. How many of you knew these shots are possible? The pockets I am using are about 4 and 1/2 inches, and if I am cheating the pockets it's not by much.
 
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LastTwo said:
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%AR6F6%PW9H4%Wa4J0%XR9F5%YE3D4%ZR2F3%[S6G0%\X0H3%eA6b5

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On this one I am definately not cheating the pocket, and I can get the cueball to draw back off the 1 as if I shot it straight in, using low inside (left).
Click to expand...

This one seems impossible to me... you can't draw back straight from an angle without using elevation.
 
mjantti said:
This one seems impossible to me... you can't draw back straight from an angle without using elevation.
Click to expand...

You're right it's not possible, and the cueball is not drawing straight back to where it was when you hit it. It's drawing straight back as if the cueball was shot from somewhere along the red arrow straight in, that's what I meant, and that's how it's displayed in the diagram.

edit: I also made a slight error in that diagram, the red arrow showing the cueball's path backwards is supposed to be straight with the green arrow, not off angle slightly.
 
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START(%A`1N2%BD4K4%P[2S2%QC9S0%RD0M8%SD2F7%UF0H0%V_9N7%Wr8C9%X_6N7%Y_2N9%Z[3R9%[F2S9%\_5N6%]E6N6%^_5N6)END

Inside draw (right) takes me to A. Center draw takes me to B, and outside draw (left) takes me to C.

Certainly, these are all possible, but it looks like you can't get to A with a level cue with this much angle. If you need to jack up at all to get there, it qualifies as a masse. If you can do this with a level cue, that's a very nice shot.


START(%An7L5%Pp9S9%QF0T5%RF1M3%WH4U2%Xn7L9%YG2N2%Zn5L9%[n8M6%\p7S9%]r8D6%^n4L6)END

I can get to A with low inside (right). I can get to B with either center draw or center left.

Yup, no problem here.


START(%Ae7M5%Pa0S2%WD2[2%Xd8M9%Yd9N0%Za1S1%[s0D2%\e8M3%eC1b3)END

On this shot I can actually scratch in the corner with low inside (right). I am unable to do that with center draw or outside.

Believable, but this looks pretty difficult to execute.


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Yes, this is possible.
 
Sure those shots are possible, but as has been said, not with a level cue, although it doesn't take much elevation at all since you are using a non-center ball hit. A couple of things can happen in those situations, but most likely, the cue ball is masse'-ing (I don't know how else to spell masse-ing!) onto a different approach to the OB than it would with a center ball hit. Much like this shot.

START(
%Jr0H9%OC6N7%Pq5N1%QF0T5%RF1M3%SD2F7%Uq8J1%Vq5M3%]G5H2%^q8I7
%eA4a9
)END

You're dead straight in on the OB, but you shoot a 7:30 low left with a 15° or 20° elevated cue. What happens here is the cue ball squirts to the right, then curves to the left, so you aren't really hitting the OB from the original straight in position anymore and can take the tangent line straight down table to get position on the second ball. I think that's what's probably happening with those other shots. You're actually squirting the CB offline, then the swerve from the non axial spin takes it to your altered aim line, or on a different line of origin, so to speak, so, you get a different path away from the cue ball.

I don't know that I'd try these shots unless absolutely necessary, but if you can do them consistently, they'll definitely give you an edge over a player who can't. Have fun with them! Like the one I did on RSB. I practice it quite a lot, because it's a shot that comes up a lot in games like 9-Ball and 8-Ball. It's definitely an "edge" to know these shots.

Later,
Bob
 
I think that when you shoot these shots with inside draw, it creates more throw on the object ball, which then acts as a better backstop for the cueball to draw off of.

I noticed in Dr. Dave's experiments when he said these kinds of shots with inside magnified the throw, and with outside canceled it. When you think about it, this not only affects your aim on the object ball but also influences the path of the cueball. I think the extra throw allows the draw can take quicker.

Chris
 
LastTwo said:
A few years ago a friend of mine who is a well known professional player taught me some positional shots involving inside english that alot of people don't seem to know about. Some of the shots I posted on this board and they were disputed by Colin Colenso. Colin is fairly well known on this board and it is my guess he has a ton of knowledge about the game. He told me that some of the shots I posted are not possible. The next day with this on my mind I started practicing those shots again and sure enough I can do them. I play on regular simonis cloth, nothing different than what the average player shoots on. What I want to know is, how many of you can execute these shots? For some of them it takes me two or three tries until I can execute the proper "hit" on these shots, but they sure as hell can be done. Here are some of them:

START(
%A`1N2%BD4K4%P[2S2%QC9S0%RD0M8%SD2F7%UF0H0%V_9N7%Wr8C9%X_6N7
%Y_2N9%Z[3R9%[F2S9%\_5N6%]E6N6%^_5N6
)END

Inside draw (right) takes me to A. Center draw takes me to B, and outside draw (left) takes me to C.

START(
%An7L5%Pp9S9%QF0T5%RF1M3%WH4U2%Xn7L9%YG2N2%Zn5L9%[n8M6%\p7S9
%]r8D6%^n4L6
)END

I can get to A with low inside (right). I can get to B with either center draw or center left.

START(
%Ae7M5%Pa0S2%WD2[2%Xd8M9%Yd9N0%Za1S1%[s0D2%\e8M3%eC1b3

)END

On this shot I can actually scratch in the corner with low inside (right). I am unable to do that with center draw or outside.

START(
%AR6F6%PW9H4%W_0H7%XR9F5%YE3D4%ZR2F3%[S6G0%\X0H3%eA6b5

)END

On this one I am definately not cheating the pocket, and I can get the cueball to draw back off the 1 as if I shot it straight in, using low inside (left).

What do you guys think? Am I being decieved by my own eyes? Do these shots look impossible to you? I didn't use the curvy lines because I don't know where the cueball begins to curve at, and the curve is very slight. How many of you knew these shots are possible? The pockets I am using are about 4 and 1/2 inches, and if I am cheating the pockets it's not by much.
Click to expand...

Hey Last Two,
I enjoy this type of topic and thinks it's very important to work out what actually happens with spin.

I want to give a full response with graphics to describe, but right now my computer is struggling to open more than one application at a time. Gotta get it serviced.

But what I have to say, for now, is this....

I think your cue action tends to allow you to hit the cue ball lower and with more action when you play right hand side / english.

I've trialed 100 shots from 1/2 ball angle on the black ball on a snooker table using low left, centre and right side and dotted the finishing position.

I found no noticable statistical difference in the angle that I could achieve with either side.

Now while the cue ball turns in the direction of the spin on impact, to about 2-5% of the degree it does off a rail, there is a cancelling effect in that this turn is also transmitted to the object ball.

Hence, a shot with outside english can be hit thicker and turns the object ball toward the pocket. A shot with inside english must be hit thinner as the object ball turns straighter.

I think if you go and hit 20 shots each way, trying to hit a bit lower with outside english, you'll find you can make the same position with inside and outside.

Another point I would raise, is that with softer, straighter shots, I believe you can hold a tighter angle with outside english, not with inside english as your theory would suggest.

Snooker players often use outside english to hold angles this way, particularly on soft follow through shots.
 
Cane said:
Sure those shots are possible, but as has been said, not with a level cue, although it doesn't take much elevation at all since you are using a non-center ball hit. A couple of things can happen in those situations, but most likely, the cue ball is masse'-ing (I don't know how else to spell masse-ing!) onto a different approach to the OB than it would with a center ball hit. Much like this shot.

START(
%Jr0H9%OC6N7%Pq5N1%QF0T5%RF1M3%SD2F7%Uq8J1%Vq5M3%]G5H2%^q8I7
%eA4a9
)END

You're dead straight in on the OB, but you shoot a 7:30 low left with a 15° or 20° elevated cue. What happens here is the cue ball squirts to the right, then curves to the left, so you aren't really hitting the OB from the original straight in position anymore and can take the tangent line straight down table to get position on the second ball. I think that's what's probably happening with those other shots. You're actually squirting the CB offline, then the swerve from the non axial spin takes it to your altered aim line, or on a different line of origin, so to speak, so, you get a different path away from the cue ball.

I don't know that I'd try these shots unless absolutely necessary, but if you can do them consistently, they'll definitely give you an edge over a player who can't. Have fun with them! Like the one I did on RSB. I practice it quite a lot, because it's a shot that comes up a lot in games like 9-Ball and 8-Ball. It's definitely an "edge" to know these shots.

Later,
Bob
Click to expand...

I'm using a normal bridge for all of these shots, and I don't see how the cueball is curving on it's way to the object ball if it's sliding with draw. It seems more logical to me that putting low sidespin on the cueball, after it strikes and object ball, that it can cause a slight change in the cueball's direction.

For example, set up a dead straight in long shot and and try drawing the cueball straight back to your tip. Some people with a perfect stroke may be able to do this more often than others. Notice that if you don't strike the cueball dead center, *EVEN IF YOU NAIL THE CENTER OF THE POCKET* the cueball loops back not even close to the line it was shot from. How is this possible if you are dead straight, the object ball goes in dead straight, but why doesn't the CB draw back dead straight?
Another issue is that it most certainly IS possible to use low sidespin and draw the cueball back dead straight, because on long straight in shots, sometimes I do draw the cueball back dead straight to my cue, and it's got some sidespin on it. I haven't figured out why this is, but it's driving me nuts.
 
LastTwo said:
For example, set up a dead straight in long shot and and try drawing the cueball straight back to your tip. Some people with a perfect stroke may be able to do this more often than others. Notice that if you don't strike the cueball dead center, *EVEN IF YOU NAIL THE CENTER OF THE POCKET* the cueball loops back not even close to the line it was shot from. How is this possible if you are dead straight, the object ball goes in dead straight, but why doesn't the CB draw back dead straight?
Click to expand...

Last Two - in fact, the cue ball does draw back dead straight on a dead straight shot with either side applied. Any variation is quite minimal.

Also, your diagrams were basically impossible with the angles you drew. The angle of reflection must be more that the angle of incidence, but you were drawing balls coming back almost straight from angled shots.

What you are thinking you can do is a common mistake.

Get yourself a copy of Advanced Billiard Techniques by Robert Byrne.

Go line up straight shots and play them with left and right draw. If you can learn to pot them in the centre you'll see the cue ball will come back on nearly the identical path.

Surely s2m and other experienced players here recognize this as a pool physics basic fundamental.
 
Colin Colenso said:
...
Also, your diagrams were basically impossible with the angles you drew. The angle of reflection must be more that the angle of incidence, but you were drawing balls coming back almost straight from angled shots.
... .
Click to expand...
I agree with this. The diagrams are bad. At a trade show (I think it was Hopkins' Expo several years back) we were discussing this shot, and a bunch of us tried something similar. Our conclusion was that inside or outide could not do a better job of drawing the cue ball as straight back as possible as plain draw without side spin.

So, I'll pose it as a proposition: However good someone can do with level sidespin and draw, I can do better with plain draw.

Note the level cue part. Efren is said to be able to shoot the spot shot as a stop shot by elevating some.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I agree with this. The diagrams are bad. At a trade show (I think it was Hopkins' Expo several years back) we were discussing this shot, and a bunch of us tried something similar. Our conclusion was that inside or outide could not do a better job of drawing the cue ball as straight back as possible as plain draw without side spin.

So, I'll pose it as a proposition: However good someone can do with level sidespin and draw, I can do better with plain draw.
Click to expand...

Good to see your input Bob, I agree with you entirely. To hold the tightest angle possible, hit as low as possible...hence, no side.
 
Is it possible humidity can have an effect? It gets fairly humid in the poolroom I play at, and I assure you I am able to do all the shots diagrammed, I just shot them again less than an hour ago.
 
Also, on some of the shots the cueball curves somewhat, I didn't use the curved lines in the diagrams because I don't know where the curve starts, it seems to happen very quickly at the beginning.
 
Last Two Wrote:

Is it possible humidity can have an effect? It gets fairly humid in the poolroom I play at, and I assure you I am able to do all the shots diagrammed, I just shot them again less than an hour ago.

Also, on some of the shots the cueball curves somewhat, I didn't use the curved lines in the diagrams because I don't know where the curve starts, it seems to happen very quickly at the beginning.

My Replies:

Humidity won't have much effect on the angles in regards to these shots you have diagrammed

Regarding that you just did them on the table. What you did is achieved the tighter angle draw back with inside english. What myself and Bob pointed out is that we believe we could draw back to this same position using outside english and draw back at an even tighter angle with pure centre low draw.

I'd be willing to do this as a betting proposition. (That's not a challenge to you, just to indicate my confidence). That would not count if the cue ball was struck with an elevated cue to produce masse'. I don't think that is what you are doing btw.

It is normal for the cue ball to curve at the beginning. It deflects at just under 90 degrees. (Some loss from friction). This is the tangent line. As the backspin grips the cloth, it curves the cue ball.

If you see curving later on, it can be two things. 1. The table is not level. 2. The table has a nap cloth (directional fibre) and the spinning cue ball will turn from its line on the nap.

I suggest you mark the cue ball and object ball positions exactly. Play 10 shots with your inside english and see what the tightest line you can bring the cue ball back at. Mark that spot on the cushion.

Then go find a very good player and test him to see if he can bring back the cue ball as straight as that with centre backspin. Give him 20 shots.

I still think you may have a habit of hitting lower with right side english as part of your cueing action.

To test this, try your theory doing the same shot in mirror image.

It may be also caused by misjudgment of potting accurately with the different sides. You may often pinch the ball into the two differnet sides of the pocket using the 2 sides. I have seen a lot of guys with this tendency. I've fought that tendency myself.
 
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