Is Touch Of Inside "the teacher"

[CJ Wiley]

A definite advantage when shooting challenging shots, especially off the end rail.

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley; Efren told me his secret was -NO SPIN-
This reminds me of the line from Quigley Down Under.
"I didn't say I couldn't use one. I just said I did not have much use for one."

People assume that Efren can't shoot a jump shot, because they have never seen him shoot one. I have and it was the best jump shot I have ever seen executed in competition.

Yes, it's just like with golfers, Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus. They prefer the Fade (left to right shot pattern) and will use it every chance they get. However, if the situation requires a right to left trajectory they will choose the appropriate shot to maximize their margin of error.

The TOI is simply a "referential index" of natural shot angles that, from my experience, fit the subconscious more naturally. Spinning shots are unnatural and therefore not ideal for your core reference (of angles). Only when you know the natural angles can you tell when you need to alter them.

The Touch of Inside also makes the cue ball move in a predictable direction (over cutting the object ball slightly) so it's easier to play a particular side of the "pocket zone".....this is a definite advantage when shooting challenging shots, especially off the end rail.

You can do this with "outside english," although you still have to factor in the deflection AND the spin's effect on the cue ball's path.

 

[Colin Colenso]

The TOI is simply a "referential index" of natural shot angles that, from my experience, fit the subconscious more naturally. Spinning shots are unnatural and therefore not ideal for your core reference (of angles). Only when you know the natural angles can you tell when you need to alter them.

This 'core reference' idea is quite powerful I believe, though it is hardly ever mentioned in instructional books or videos.

I use the natural rolling medium speed follow shot as my core reference pot angle as my core reference. In most cases, this angle requires aiming a little thicker than I would aim if executing center ball TOI. Higher speed TOI with stun on fuller shots brings the angles closer.

For medium and higher speed 1 tip inside english with follow, the throw angle is pretty much identical to rolling medium speed follow on all shots. I find this very useful when using back hand english.

There are certainly advantages to being really strong at seeing one particular reference pot angle and making adjustments from that, compared to trying to learn a bunch of angles for the various speeds and spins than one might use on any particular angle of pot.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's something "mentally magical" about the "NO SPIN" reaction after contact

It may be just coincidence, but all my road partners used the TOI as the base for their angle foundation. Maybe it's because we were always playing on different type tables under unusual conditions. I actually prefer playing on worn tables that roll off slightly....and even a beer stain or two is ok with me, it's like sand traps on a golf course.

There's something "mentally magical" about the "NO SPIN" reaction after contact that triggers a higher level of understanding, or maybe it's just a deeper insight......either way, I'm grateful to get this type of training passed down from the likes of "Omaha John," Vernon Elliot, JR Weldon, Billy Johnson, Rusty Brandimere and Mike Lebron, especially at such a young age (all before the age of 20.

I'll not soon forget all the times my road partners would smile and say "you got it on a string, kid, it's just a matter of time now!".....so it was, and so it is. - 'The Game is the Teacher'

This 'core reference' idea is quite powerful I believe, though it is hardly ever mentioned in instructional books or videos.

I use the natural rolling medium speed follow shot as my core reference pot angle as my core reference. In most cases, this angle requires aiming a little thicker than I would aim if executing center ball TOI. Higher speed TOI with stun on fuller shots brings the angles closer.

For medium and higher speed 1 tip inside english with follow, the throw angle is pretty much identical to rolling medium speed follow on all shots. I find this very useful when using back hand english.

There are certainly advantages to being really strong at seeing one particular reference pot angle and making adjustments from that, compared to trying to learn a bunch of angles for the various speeds and spins than one might use on any particular angle of pot.

 

[Masirib5]

TOI really works if you study it and practice. It works! It was kind of hard for me to get started and not use too much inside that made the cue ball spin. But CJ was there fast every time I had a question or didn't really understand the application. It was worth the $. As soon as you "get it" you will see but you really can't get it intellectually only. I found CJ's TOI lessons really great.

In actual play you have to use a varity of shots of course but a lot of the time I can just use CJ's TOI method and not worry about loosing the cue ball by over spinning the shot and getting out of line.

--Jeff

 

[CJ Wiley]

we get exactly what we need, when we need it, in exactly the right way.

TOI really works if you study it and practice. It works! It was kind of hard for me to get started and not use too much inside that made the cue ball spin. But CJ was there fast every time I had a question or didn't really understand the application. It was worth the $. As soon as you "get it" you will see but you really can't get it intellectually only. I found CJ's TOI lessons really great.

In actual play you have to use a varity of shots of course but a lot of the time I can just use CJ's TOI method and not worry about loosing the cue ball by over spinning the shot and getting out of line.

--Jeff

Just like anything on the advanced level, we only get out of it what we feel like investing into it......sounds like you're reaping the rewards, Jeff. Looking back on my career I would not take a million dollars for my experience with the touch of inside. It opened up countless doors and led to not only large cash prizes, but irreplaceable relationships.

Life works like this - we get exactly what we need, when we need it, in exactly the right way.....and it's usually the scenario we'd lease suspect. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Sometimes they gambled the highest under the most brutal playing conditions.

I prefer the game played on older worn tables, where the CB grips the rails. I played on the IPT and the rails would hardly take side at all. My CB control went down 50%, which pretty much stuffed up most outs... obviously a lack of experience with newly clothed US tables.

I do get your point re firmer shots coming off the rails softer, hence floating. This can have advantages on some shots.

Why use the "floating, TOI technique" on some shots when you can use it as the foundation for all shots? If not TOI it's adviseable to have a "go to shot" that holds up under pressure AND under even the most strenuous conditions.

Just food for thought, we used to play on very unusual playing conditions on the road. Sometimes they gambled the highest under the most brutal playing conditions.

'The Game is our Teacher'

 

[HawaiianEye]

Just food for thought, we used to play on very unusual playing conditions on the road. Sometimes they gambled the highest under the most brutal playing conditions.

'The Game is our Teacher'

He who masters the table FIRST usually gets such a head start that they normally come out on top in a match. TOI works on all tables, but is especially useful on tables that are crappy.

 

[CJ Wiley]

their "bread and butter" games were designed in pool rooms

He who masters the table FIRST usually gets such a head start that they normally come out on top in a match. TOI works on all tables, but is especially useful on tables that are crappy.

Yes, on near-perfect, "tournament conditions" players can get away with playing a variety of ways.

I believe Johnny Archer and Mike Sigel (best tournament players of the 80s and 90s) would agree that they change their game to accommodate tournament conditions.....however, their "bread and butter" games were designed in pool rooms with slower, cloth and less than pristine playing conditions.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Some players favor the inside, then move their tip to the center.

My question is when using Toi all the time and needing more inside or outside english for position. Example is a a slight cut to the left needing outside english for shape. Do I shift over slightly to the inside for toi and then swivel back to the right for the outside? Basically Im hitting closer to center or just to the right of center but it puts outside spin because Ive shifted over to the left for toi. Does this make sense?

It's really about having your reference point slightly to the inside of center. There's something about our visual perception that makes it easier to favor a side than put your tip in the "exact" center.

Some players favor the inside, then move their tip to the center......I have students that prefer this method. Everyone has their own way of playing the game, the responsibility I have is to figure out how to communicate what works in the players own "subconscious" language. This is usually based on whether they're more visual, auditory, or need to have things put in feeling/touch terminology.

This is the challenge writing on a public forum, what makes sense to some players may not to others. It also have a lot to do with the intent of the reader, if they don't want to accept new information they certainly won't. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[RADAR]

Yes, on near-perfect, "tournament conditions" players can get away with playing a variety of ways.

I believe Johnny Archer and Mike Sigel (best tournament players of the 80s and 90s) would agree that they change their game to accommodate tournament conditions.....however, their "bread and butter" games were designed in pool rooms with slower, cloth and less than pristine playing conditions.

I 100% Agree! very accurate. as all around player sigel for sure!

 

[CJ Wiley]

.The 3 Part Pocket System will be "downloaded" into your subconscious.

its all about the Touch of Outside, bro.

You have a point.

I went up to take a lesson from the legendary Buddy Hall a few years ago in his home town. Before we started Buddy smiled and said "what can I teach you?" and winked.

Just want to start at the beginning and go over the pre shot routine and compare notes on everything I'm doing.......and we did.

Then towards the end I showed Buddy the 'Touch of Inside' system.

"I like it!" said Buddy. I do the same thing with a touch of outside, but the result is the same, and sometimes I do it that way, just depends on conditions."

Every top champion player "throws," "deflects," "over cuts," (or what ever you want to call it) so they can play all three parts of the pocket at will......this enables us to "cheat" the pocket without using excess spin.

The TOI System teaches how to do this, and after you learn to use TOI for three hours it will make using TOO or whatever your personal choice is SO much easier because you'll understand how to "feel" the pocket.....The 3 Part Pocket System will be "downloaded" into your subconscious......and no one will ever be able to take if from you. 'The Game is Your Teacher'

 

[Mitchxout]

I just have about a 100 questions.

How much is a touch?

Does it vary according to the cut angle or is it always the same?

I ask because in order to aim center-to-center on a half-ball hit and force the shot in with deflection, it would take alot more than a touch of inside. No?

 

[West Point 1987]

I just have about a 100 questions.

How much is a touch?

Does it vary according to the cut angle or is it always the same?

I ask because in order to aim center-to-center on a half-ball hit and force the shot in with deflection, it would take alot more than a touch of inside. No?

For me, the biggest variable on how much is a touch is the distance between the CB and OB...closer requires more of a touch to get enough deflection. But the difference is MINISCULE. It's more of a feel/touch thing. For me and my shaft, about 1/8 of a tip is enough and is my "new center CB" position. The center to edge or center to center is not an aim point per se, it's an alignment done when your upright, approaching the shot. To most players, that's the same thing, but to me it's not...there is a distinction. I'm looking at the same thing I always did, but the stick line to CB to contact point on the OB is different...but the CB gets to the same place. For years, I used what would best be described as a "touch of outside", which got the CB to the same place, but invariably you're getting a CB that always spins coming off the OB and usually a rail, with unpredictable or difficult to predict results (unless you shoot 6 hours a day on the same tables). The TOI CB is dead after contact (or nearly so) and is a lot more predictable. You can add a little outside spin with BHE if you need it; but once you get the hang of this, you'll realize that you really don't need it as much as you thought you did and you'll over run your position a lot less. After you do this for a few months or even a year, you'll forget you're even doing it.

 

[Cornerman]

Any one use CJ's TOI system and actually find it works for them? It seems like there's a pile of variables to it you'd have to iron out...so if your already a B player, is it really going to make you an A player? or Is this whole system just a bit of a pyramid scheme??

All I can say about this is that I was surprised at Derby City Classic just how many elite professionals use a touch of inside on what would be a normal shallow angle cut that didn't require spinning off a cushion for position.

It certainly opened my eyes and it also answered a nagging complaint I've had on the touch of outside concept.

Is it just CJ? Nope. I saw professional after professional favor the inside on the same basic shallow angle cut. Maybe rather than all of us just believing what we think is common sense, we actually pay attention. That might be too easy, no?

Freddie <~~~ surprised, but not surprised

 

[Houstoer]

After six/seven months or so with it its really starting to hit home with me. Love it.

 

[SJDinPHX]

All I can say about this is that I was surprised at Derby City Classic just how many elite professionals use a touch of inside on what would be a normal shallow angle cut that didn't require spinning off a cushion for position.

It certainly opened my eyes and it also answered a nagging complaint I've had on the touch of outside concept.

Is it just CJ? Nope. I saw professional after professional favor the inside on the same basic shallow angle cut. Maybe rather than all of us just believing what we think is common sense, we actually pay attention. That might be too easy, no?

Freddie <~~~ surprised, but not surprised

Mr. Cornerman..It is not surprising, that most top players use TOI....It is common knowledge among elite players, that 'deadening' the cue ball, after contact with the OB, will give you better control... However, the same can be said about Touch of Outside, or TOLow, or TOhigh..It all depends on where you want the cue ball to travel to, for your next shot !

It is NOT rocket science, and anyone who thinks TOI, is the only way to pursue the game, has no chance of mastering the game of pool, to its highest level..

PS..Also, it should come as no great surprise, that every good player uses all parts of the pocket opening, to his advantage, on every given shot..That is NOT something new, is it ? ..I'm sorry, I guess I should be more considerate of beginners seeking knowledge...My bad ! ..But if they really want to improve their game..all they have to do is PAY ATTENTION !

 

[Pushout]

Mr. Cornerman..It is not surprising, that a lot of top players use TOI....It is common knowledge among elite players, that 'deadening' the cue ball, after contact with the OB, will give you better control... However, the same can be said about touch of outside, or TOLow, or TOhigh..It all depends on where you want the cue ball to travel to, for your next shot !

It is NOT rocket science, and anyone who thinks TOI, is the only way to pursue the game, has no chance of mastering the game of pool, to its highest level..

PS..Every good player uses all parts of the pocket opening, to his advantage !..Why is that something new ?

Well put, Dick!

 

[HawaiianEye]

I think the WHOLE system boils down to "what is the CORRECT shot" for the situation at hand.

Using TOI, one would use TOI as their "base" method on every shot until you don't have the option to use it in order to get position. You would use TOI until you get "out of line" or something equivalent and then use "outside" or "whatever" to get back in line...then revert back to TOI. This is the SAME as any other method, with the exception that it favors the "inside" of the ball which "kills" or "stuns" sort of the shot instead of letting the cue ball go wild with uncontrollable spin.

Players of CJ's caliber also know all the "other" options and will utilize them when needed.

CJ has never said that "other" options are inappropriate or incorrect, he just uses TOI as a reference point.

I have used this method for YEARS and learned it when playing LOTS of bar table pool. It is ESPECIALLY effective on bar tables when you don't want to lose the cue ball on the smaller playing field with more chances of the balls being clustered close together. You can get away with a lot more mistakes in position on a big table than you can a smaller table because the balls are usually spread out a bit more over the larger playing field.

Aloha.

 

[SCCues]

If you want to experience the aiming part of TOI try this:

Set up a slightly off angled shot (straight in to a spot a half diamond to the left of the corner pocket). This means you need to cut it slightly to the right, so look at the center of your tip, then get down as if it's straight in, aim at center (for your reference point and to "dial in your eyes"), then more your whole stick parallel to the shot line slightly to the right.

Hit it at the center, just like it's straight in and see what happens. It will cut slightly and go in, if it over cuts, set it up again and use LESS TOI. If it doesn't cut at all you're not using any TOI, cue it slightly more inside, to the right. After you make this and really FEEL the connection to the shot, more the angle where it's straight in to the first diamond repeat this drill.

This is how to calibrate the angles of TOI. There's no short cut to learning how much TOI to use to create the angles, I"ll just tell you it's LESS than you probably think it is.

After you do this you will start to "Real Eyes" what I've been saying about unintentionally deflecting shots OUT of the pocket in the past. If you just cue it a HAIR outside of center it will deflect a half diamond on a 4'-5' shot. Imagine how many balls you've missed by unintentionally doing this and having NO IDEA why.

This is why I strongly recommend NOT using center ball because{a slight stoking error} will happen and you won't be able to tell which side of center you "might" have hit. Maybe you didn't, maybe you did, who knows? How can you make the correct adjustment if you can't identify what he root issue of the miss is? You simply won't be able to, however, players like myself can and will beat you because of this knowledge.

I know one thing, you will not know for sure unless you start favoring one side of the cue ball and TOI is the best side because that's where your contact point is. Think about this, and it will make more and more sense. 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ I haven't tried TOI yet, but I have the DVD and when I have enough time to spend watching your DVD and trying the system my plan is to give TOI a shot. I'd like to get your opinion on using a Predator 314 LD shaft with your system. I know that you play with a regular shaft and I'm not sure how TOI will work if I use a LD shaft like my Predator.

 

[backplaying]

When using just center ball, it's not hard at all to be able to tell if you hit off center, and on which side. All it takes is a little knowledge of how to do so. Something any instructor should have.

What I don't understand, is why you are so often so willing to make statements like you did, which show a total lack of knowledge, just to make a point to sell another DVD? You might actually sell more if you didn't come across as not knowing the basics to start with. Marketing is about making yourself look good, not look like you don't know what you are doing just to make a point.

There are a lot of players that don't realize they miss hit the cue ball as the reason they missed. Yes, you can tell after the shot by watching the cue ball's spin, or direction to know if you miss hit it, but not everyone does this. I personally favor a touch of outside and have played this way as long as I can remember. Of course you have to be able to use any English that's called for and in some spots, I always favor inside, but I would say I hit with a little outside 90% of shots. The point is, the majority don't pay as much attention to the cue ball, as they do the object ball.