Is Touch Of Inside "the teacher"

When someone is really "Pinning" their shots you can hear the difference

The "thud stroke," now that's a new one I've never heard of before.

"Pinning" is when you contact the cue-ball with the edge of your cue with a slightly ascending blow (top for "draw," and bottom for "follow").....hardly driving the cue ball into the cloth (that would be more like a "jump shot").

When someone is really "Pinning" their shots you can hear the difference.....Efren does it so well it sounds like his cue is broken on occasion.

The key to accuracy for me has always been how well I'm accelerating to the "cue ball target" with the edge of my tip (the center edge to TOI to be exact). This "Pin's" the cue ball and the path it takes is very precise......very precise indeed. 'The Game is the Teacher'

pin.jpg




His Boy Elroy said:
I just recovered last night from a 3 day slump. Boy... It was bad! I was embarrassed even though I was alone. I got out of as fast as the snap of a finger. Boy... did I get out of it! I tried something I'd done before in this situation.

I usually use a stroke similiarly to one that C.J refers to as a "pin" stroke, although I'm not trying to drive the ball into the cloth. I am; however, trying to hit the ball like I'm slicing through butter. As in the past, I thought maybe I was getting loose and lazy with it. Basically; It was getting stale. A drastic change was needed.

So I started hitting the ball with my "Thud" stroke. What's that? Well; it's the exact opposite of hitting the ball like I'm trying to slice through butter. It's blunt, with less of a follow through. It feels like if I do it 5 times my tip is going to mushroom. It sounds like a THUD!

I'm sure my "THUD" stroke will eventually get stale and I'll have to start moving back to to my quasi- pin stroke, but my "Thud" stroke sure is working now.

I'm highly cognizant that many of my posts make no sense to almost anyone but me. I'm also highly cognizant that the reason for this may be that I lack any sense whatsoever; but, magnanimous and courageous guy I am, I'll endure the slings and arrows if it helps just one other senseless guy like me.
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CJ Wiley said:
The "thud stroke," now that's a new one I've never heard of before.

"Pinning" is when you contact the cue-ball with the edge of your cue with a slightly ascending blow (top for "draw," and bottom for "follow").....hardly driving the cue ball into the cloth (that would be more like a "jump shot").

When someone is really "Pinning" their shots you can hear the difference.....Efren does it so well it sounds like his cue is broken on occasion.

The key to accuracy for me has always been how well I'm accelerating to the "cue ball target" with the edge of my tip (the center edge to TOI to be exact). This "Pin's" the cue ball and the path it takes is very precise......very precise indeed. 'The Game is the Teacher'

pin.jpg
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I'm going have to read some about that "pin" shot. I'm obviously not even taking myself seriously when I talk about the "thud " shot. I am serious when I said I was in a slump for three days and I dramatically pulled out of it at the snap of a finger when I had an " Oh yeah" moment and I recalled how I had previously pulled out of a similiarly slump by lightening up on attempted finesse and hitting the ball more solidly.

That's an extremely simple description of a stroke that is much, much more complex, but at this point I don't know how to go past the simple explanations because I don't what the hell I'm doing myself.

This shotmaking process is like whittling a red wood tree with a pocket knife. It's tinkering, and tinkering , and tinkering. When I find something that works, I try to consciously identify the components; but if that doesn't work, I can only hope that I can remember how to do it without the components identified. That's the case most of the time these days.
 
The "thud" is coming from you hitting the cue ball and object ball fuller, which is like TOI. If you are keeping the same angles and using TOI to move around the table you are hitting the ball "fuller" and that sounds completely different from when you spin the ball around the table. It takes a bit more "stroke" to move the ball around the table than spinning balls, but it can keep the cue ball from "spinning" out of control.

Aloha.
 
HawaiianEye said:
The "thud" is coming from you hitting the cue ball and object ball fuller, which is like TOI. If you are keeping the same angles and using TOI to move around the table you are hitting the ball "fuller" and that sounds completely different from when you spin the ball around the table. It takes a bit more "stroke" to move the ball around the table than spinning balls, but it can keep the cue ball from "spinning" out of control.

Aloha.
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I hear ya! ....and oh... It's in the mid - seventies in Chicago right now, so You won't be making me jealous with the "Aloha" for a while.
 
CJ Wiley said:
The "thud stroke," now that's a new one I've never heard of before.

"Pinning" is when you contact the cue-ball with the edge of your cue with a slightly ascending blow (top for "draw," and bottom for "follow").....hardly driving the cue ball into the cloth (that would be more like a "jump shot").

When someone is really "Pinning" their shots you can hear the difference.....Efren does it so well it sounds like his cue is broken on occasion.

The key to accuracy for me has always been how well I'm accelerating to the "cue ball target" with the edge of my tip (the center edge to TOI to be exact). This "Pin's" the cue ball and the path it takes is very precise......very precise indeed. 'The Game is the Teacher'

pin.jpg
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Ok. I vaguely recall discussions about the pin shot. I remember the part about the edge of the tip. I also remember the part about the sound; so I tried to look up "pin shot" in the archives. All I could come up with was some posts by a few of your familiar detractors who seemed to think it also involved somehow pinning the ball to the cloth. I should know better than to listen to that crowd.

However; I think I'm on to something. What you describe as a "pin shot" in your post, is definitely something I practice. I went in to a slump with it when I perceived flimsiness entering the equation and I tried to add solidity to the stroke by eliminating attemps at finesse and hitting the ball so full that there was no semblance of a " crack" in the sound whatsoever. Doing this, I found I could still succeed in putting a
touch of inside on the CB.

When I would hit the ball so full that there was no semblance of a "crack" I would experiment and add finesse; albeit, in different degrees. When I would hear a semblance of a crack, I would eliminate some, but not all of the finesse in the next shot. I found a place that felt and sounded absolutely perfect. It's located where the hit is so full that there is absolutely no "crack," but where only a touch more finesse will produce a slight "crack."

When I hit this type of shot, it feels like I'm hitting center ball; nevertheless, I'm putting T.O.I on the CB. When I get it right, it feels great....as I said...I think I'm on to something!
 
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I'm more concerned with "effective and ineffective," in terms of ball pocketing


I don't agree with this my friend. There's definitely some solid themes of shot-making that all champion players use.....then there's variations that make them unique and individual in their styles.

I don't like to think in terms of "right and wrong," I'm more concerned with "effective and ineffective," in terms of ball pocketing. When a player grasps the '3 Part Pocket System' it makes the game much easier, and increases the pocket zone by 30 - 40% on regulation pocketed tables.
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CJ Wiley said:
I don't agree with this my friend. There's definitely some solid themes of shot-making that all champion players use.....then there's variations that make them unique and individual in their styles.

I don't like to think in terms of "right and wrong," I'm more concerned with "effective and ineffective," in terms of ball pocketing. When a player grasps the '3 Part Pocket System' it makes the game much easier, and increases the pocket zone by 30 - 40% on regulation pocketed tables.
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Boy; you just hit the nail on the head! Your writings tend to have that effect on me. "SOLID THEMES AND VARIATIONS" - EXACTLY! THANK YOU!

I've learned the solid themes. I have a perfect understanding of the 3 - part pocket system; but, in my case, the shot - making process only becomes alive and worthwhile when the variations give "flavor" to the "vanilla" of the solid themes.

The solid themes are somewhat athletic and analytical. (stance, line of shot, 3 part pocket system) The variations (at least in my case) spring from a mindset that combines the pure artistry found in snooker and the entertainment found in Vaudville type acts. (juggling, plate spinning, etc.).

Once I learn the solid themes to the point that they're...well...solid, I move onto the variations. It's the variations I'm tinkering, and tinkering, and tinkering with, and because they are so nuanced and individual, they may be impossible to explain to anyone else. That's why when I try, I often do with tongue firmly in cheek.

Some of you who have suffered through my posts through the last year might know that I don't go to pool rooms. I've spent 2 hours of my life in pool rooms. I've spent about 10,000 alone in my basement trying to perfect the art of shot-making. It's kinda like a golfer who does nothing but long drive.

Last summer, I tried playing 14.1 for the first time. I tried for about 15 hours and gave up. My high run was 15. I was so guilt ridden about deviating from my tinkering with shot-making, that I couldn't concentrate.

So C.J., I don't think it'll be all that long before before I finally get this shot-making business down pat. I can see a light at the end of the tunnel; and when I finally do get it I'll buy a camcorder, post it on You Tube, and e-mail you the link. I know you'll be waiting with bated breath! I'm sure hoping I get all the T's crossed and i's dotted soon. I've been playing this game for 43 years and I'm just dying to finally be able to play 14.1 with a clear conscious. When that time comes, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to beat 15.

SOLID THEMES OF SHOTMAKING AND VARIATIONS...I really like that! Thanks again!
 
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demonstration and explanation to communicate from one mind to another's

Remember, the master player will seem to be hitting the same shot over and over - is this systematic, or are they just naturally gifted?

Of course it's structured there's no other way to achieve this level of organized play, where speeds, angles, patterns, and cue ball targeting seem to blend together. It takes thousands of hours to figure this technique out - this time can only be reduced learning from someone that's already gone down that road of expertise. While it's possible to pick up useful information from books, it's essential to see how these systems are applied with your own eyes, on a real pool table.

From my experience the truly advanced systems of play require 12 - 15 hours of demonstration and explanation to communicate from one mind to another's.....this doesn't even guarantee anyone can do it, however, they will at least understand. 'The Game is the Teacher' - click picture



His Boy Elroy said:
Boy; you just hit the nail on the head! Your writings tend to have that effect on me. "SOLID THEMES AND VARIATIONS" - EXACTLY! THANK YOU!

I've learned the solid themes. I have a perfect understanding of the 3 - part pocket system; but, in my case, the shot - making process only becomes alive and worthwhile when the variations give "flavor" to the "vanilla" of the solid themes.

The solid themes are somewhat athletic and analytical. (stance, line of shot, 3 part pocket system) The variations (at least in my case) spring from a mindset that combines the pure artistry found in snooker and the entertainment found in Vaudville type acts. (juggling, plate spinning, etc.).

Once I learn the solid themes to the point that they're...well...solid, I move onto the variations. It's the variations I'm tinkering, and tinkering, and tinkering with, and because they are so nuanced and individual, they may be impossible to explain to anyone else. That's why when I try, I often do with tongue firmly in cheek.

Some of you who have suffered through my posts through the last year might know that I don't go to pool rooms. I've spent 2 hours of my life in pool rooms. I've spent about 10,000 alone in my basement trying to perfect the art of shot-making. It's kinda like a golfer who does nothing but long drive.

Last summer, I tried playing 14.1 for the first time. I tried for about 15 hours and gave up. My high run was 15. I was so guilt ridden about deviating from my tinkering with shot-making, that I couldn't concentrate.

So C.J., I don't think it'll be all that long before before I finally get this shot-making business down pat. I can see a light at the end of the tunnel; and when I finally do get it I'll buy a camcorder, post it on You Tube, and e-mail you the link. I know you'll be waiting with bated breath! I'm sure hoping I get all the T's crossed and i's dotted soon. I've been playing this game for 43 years and I'm just dying to finally be able to play 14.1 with a clear conscious. When that time comes, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to beat 15.

SOLID THEMES OF SHOTMAKING AND VARIATIONS...I really like that! Thanks again!
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I am very interested in TOI, but how do you get position on shots needing outside English. Can the principles be reversed to play outside English?
 
mantis99 said:
I am very interested in TOI, but how do you get position on shots needing outside English. Can the principles be reversed to play outside English?
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No. With TOI you can make every shot all the time... so position is not needed.
 
mantis99 said:
I am very interested in TOI, but how do you get position on shots needing outside English.
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You use "outside" on an "as needed" basis in order to get "back in line" where you can begin using TOI again.

The more you know and are able to use TOI, the need to use outside becomes less frequent.

I don't want to try to quote CJ, but even he has said he uses outside sometimes to "change the angle off the rail" (or something to that effect).
 
HawaiianEye said:
You use "outside" on an "as needed" basis in order to get "back in line" where you can begin using TOI again.

The more you know and are able to use TOI, the need to use outside becomes less frequent.

I don't want to try to quote CJ, but even he has said he uses outside sometimes to "change the angle off the rail" (or something to that effect).
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Or as the rest of the world knows it.. "leave" or "shape". :confused:

I'd love to see the dictionary in that house.. everything's crossed out and replaced by a longer phrase.
 
The sensation is like pitching a coin to the same spot on a table

HawaiianEye said:
You use "outside" on an "as needed" basis in order to get "back in line" where you can begin using TOI again.

The more you know and are able to use TOI, the need to use outside becomes less frequent.

I don't want to try to quote CJ, but even he has said he uses outside sometimes to "change the angle off the rail" (or something to that effect).
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Yes, spin is needed to change the cue ball's natural angle coming off the rail occasionally (usually because of ball in the way, or to avoid a potential hook/scratch).

The point is you NEVER have to use spin to create a ball pocketing angle, unless you're systematically throwing your shots in (ie: Earl) using the '3 Part Pocket System' - this is aligning for the inside of the pocket and forcing it into the center (too much "force" throws it into the outside of the pocket if you choose to use spin).

The TOI position play is simple and the focus is hitting the same type of TOI shot as much as possible. The sensation (of the stroke) is like pitching a coin to the same spot on a table, or throwing a dart the same distance from the board every time......consistency is vital. 'The TOI Game is the Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
The key to accuracy for me has always been how well I'm accelerating to the "cue ball target" with the edge of my tip (the center edge to TOI to be exact). This "Pin's" the cue ball and the path it takes is very precise......very precise indeed. 'The Game is the Teacher'

pin.jpg
Click to expand...

This is very true for me also. My stroke errors come when I over grip the cue and cock my wrist into radial deviation causing it to veer off and move upwards. This is generally occurs the most when I am trying to put some force into the cue, and I try to accelerate too quickly. If I keep the transition forward slow and smooth, my accuracy is much greater. Now if I can only make that a solid habit.
 
I have seen the whole TOI thing going on in threads for quite a while now, but have never quite had the time to investigate it. I have done a search, but that brings up numerous threads to tread through. Is there somewhere where the basic principles for using TOI are explained so I can give it a try?
 
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