Isn't this a foul? old match in 2002

A

asbani

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
People usually tend to focus on the object ball after the stroke and not seeing the guy who stroked it.

At 14:30 of the video the next shot Efren actually made the ball but while stroking he pushed the 8ball with his cue tip to the left after shooting his shot, how was this not a foul and why didn't he call it on himself?

P.S: Click on the timestamp to go to the video
 
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By the way, It's foul on all balls if you check the rules at the beginning. This wasn't the first time I see Efren fouls and not speak by the way, I love Efren's game, but he has the tendency to foul and not say a thing, he did it against Earl in the color of money on day 2 I believe, he had a shot where his bridge hand was close to the 7ball and after the stroke he moved the 7ball a half inch with his bridge arm and didn't say a thing.
 
If they're playing all ball fouls it's a foul, if they're playing cue ball fouls only it is not
 
EL'nino said:
If they're playing all ball fouls it's a foul, if they're playing cue ball fouls only it is not
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It is all ball foul. Thats what I'm saying, snooker players usually call out themselves when they touch a ball.
 
It is possible he didn't see it. A players eyes are on the object ball during the shot
 
It was a foul and he didn't call it on himself. Karma came back and that's why he missed the 8 bank.
 
EL'nino said:
It is possible he didn't see it. A players eyes are on the object ball during the shot
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This isn't possible man, you can never not feel it, try it yourself, in fact sometimes you are the only person in the world that would feel if you touched something with your hand or with your cue.

I got a video of him touching the 7 ball with his bridge hand on the color of money match against Earl, he didn't call it either and none saw it.
 
EL'nino said:
If they're playing all ball fouls it's a foul, if they're playing cue ball fouls only it is not
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Is it common to play cue ball fouls only? I have never come across anyone who wanted to play this way, or any tournaments with that set of rules. Surely it's too open to abuse e.g. 'accidentally' move a ball to a slightly better position or separate a cluster
 
jchance said:
Is it common to play cue ball fouls only? I have never come across anyone who wanted to play this way, or any tournaments with that set of rules. Surely it's too open to abuse e.g. 'accidentally' move a ball to a slightly better position or separate a cluster
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It is common to play this, and there won't be abuse because the ruling of this is that, if you move a ball accidentally, it is your opponent who has the say on it weather to put it back or leave it where it is after the movement.

So if you moved it to a another cluster, there's a chance it will be worst for you, and the seating opponent leave it there, or if it was worst for you in its original place, he'll just put it back. And if he put it back you can't argue or tell him, "No it wasnt here" even if he put it back around the area and not in the exact spot. Cause its your fault, you moved it.
 
He's playing against mika, who I think would've been all over that. It's it possible on the cut away, he looked at mika and mika just waved it off, so as to not get up and move it back where it was? We might have not seen the interaction.

But that is a long shot. Is it true in APA it isn't a fouls unless your opponent calls you on it? I've always disliked this mentality (which maybe Efren carries it as well) because it invites hostility and arguments into the match. The honorable thing to do is turn yourself in and if your opponent says keep shooting then all is well.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
He's playing against mika, who I think would've been all over that. It's it possible on the cut away, he looked at mika and mika just waved it off, so as to not get up and move it back where it was? We might have not seen the interaction.

But that is a long shot. Is it true in APA it isn't a fouls unless your opponent calls you on it? I've always disliked this mentality (which maybe Efren carries it as well) because it invites hostility and arguments into the match. The honorable thing to do is turn yourself in and if your opponent says keep shooting then all is well.
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There is a ref present and it's foul on all balls....it was a foul....Mika is a professional and this is the finals of a televised event there is no way in hell or back that he "waved it off" ....and I doubt there playing APA format...lol
 
Bigb'scues said:
There is a ref present and it's foul on all balls....it was a foul....Mika is a professional and this is the finals of a televised event there is no way in hell or back that he "waved it off" ....and I doubt there playing APA format...lol
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I never said they were playing apa format.

I thought of a format where it's opponent has to call a foul. Happens to be in apa, and also, in most pro tournaments refs are never around full time. So you have to police yourself or call a ref over to watch the shot. Mika would've had the ref review the shot on video if he wanted.

So the only two options here are efren fouled and mika\ref didn't see it, and Efren is playing "if foul isn't called I'll keep shooting" (similar to APA) or mika waved it off.
 
A player doesn't always know when he or she has committed a foul of this kind. If they genuinely don't know and nobody else suspects it then it can't be called a foul. I'm talking "doesn't know" though, not the foul that Efren played here. He knew, you can't not know that that happened. I could never not call my own foul there - even if my opponent had cheated in a previous rack. But many players can not call it, including Efren it seems. He's gone down a peg in my estimation - the best don't need to play like that and it's bad for the integrity of the game that feeds them. Piss poor referring too - but even now we still have "rack your own" and refs who think they are there to lord it rather than judge it so it's hard to blame the any-edge-seeking players.
 
Here he did it again! Efren touched the 7ball with his bridge quickly moved his hand back pretending like nothing happened, you can see it from the camera view but people didn't see it.

In 1996 Color of money match where he beat Earl 120 to 117. Watch it in 480p quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0jJbrUi1WM&t=45m10s

Missed the shot too I think cause it was in his mind that he touched the ball and didn't speak.
 
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asbani said:
Here he did it again! Efren touched the 7ball with his bridge quickly moved his hand back pretending like nothing happened, you can see it from the camera view but people didn't see it.

In 1996 Color of money match where he beat Earl 120 to 117. Watch it in 480p quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0jJbrUi1WM&t=45m10s

Missed the shot too I think cause it was in his mind that he touched the ball and didn't speak.
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Awful to watch. If golfers are caught doing things like this they can get year long bans.

There's another video floating around of Nick Varner, I think it was in the Mosconi Cup, where he purposefully knocked a ball dead behind another with his hand once he realized he had missed his shot. It was clearly premeditated.

Makes me wonder if there are places where this isn't considered extremely poor etiquette.
 
asbani said:
It is common to play this, and there won't be abuse because the ruling of this is that, if you move a ball accidentally, it is your opponent who has the say on it weather to put it back or leave it where it is after the movement.

So if you moved it to a another cluster, there's a chance it will be worst for you, and the seating opponent leave it there, or if it was worst for you in its original place, he'll just put it back. And if he put it back you can't argue or tell him, "No it wasnt here" even if he put it back around the area and not in the exact spot. Cause its your fault, you moved it.
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This sounds crazy, but back in the '90s we had a regional 9-Ball tour (Texas Express / McDermott) which played by those rules. I think many players had not run across it before, and it was sort of a novelty. More than once I saw a ball moved and the opponent "replacing" it to a location favoring him but obviously not the original, AND the person who fouled not challenging the new position. It's as if they just accepted that bumping a ball was a license for the opponent to cheat.
 
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