Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open

[Cowboy Dennis]

Sounds more like Bill Cayton of Big Fights. Actually, Richie Florence was solely responsible for starting the tradition of ESPN NOT paying us for televised events.

Bill Cayton was the first to get players on ESPN and ESPN actually paid the players to be televised. Why? Because Cayton and Big Fights, his company along with Jimmy Jacobs, were Mike Tyson's and Roberto Duran's agent at that time and had clout with ESPN. ESPN pretty much did anything Cayton wanted.

Florence tried to compete with Cayton, but of course he couldn't get ESPN to pay because he had nothing to bargain with, so he wound up giving away the coverage to ESPN for free. That ended all opportunities we had for players being paid to be on TV. Cayton was furious at being undermined and walked away from us and we lost the only chance we had to get paid for being on TV. That was nearly 30 years ago and billiards in the U.S. never recovered from it.

Sorry Fran, you've got it backwards. I don't have the time or inclination to educate you on here. Bill Cayton ambushed Richie, who had made a very good deal with ESPN (i.e. NO production costs!), unlike the rotten deal the WPBA negotiated where they had to pay for everything. You're playing fast and loose with the facts!

P.S. One more tidbit of info for you. Richie put Pool on ESPN years ahead of Cayton. Check your facts before posting please.

Maybe Grady can remember better;

A quote from Bet High and Kiss Low (page 92): "Richie Florence, I thought, had some of the best tournaments. His final event in the mid 80's in Vegas had problems. Bill Cayton of "Big Fights" had 8 players under contract. Rempe, Hopkins, Martin, Butera, Mizerak, I think and 3 others. Part of that agreement specified that none of the eight players could play in any televised event. Despite the fact that not one of the eight players made the TV part of Richie's tournament, Big Fights sued and stopped this great event from being shown. It ruined Florence. A real shame, if you ask me. I had my differences with Richie over the years but underneath everything he loved the sport and the players. He suffered a stoke in 1992 and had to slow down quite a bit."

RBL

 

[FranCrimi]

Sorry Fran, you've got it backwards. I don't have the time or inclination to educate you on here. Bill Cayton ambushed Richie, who had made a very good deal with ESPN (i.e. NO production costs!), unlike the rotten deal the WPBA negotiated where they had to pay for everything. You're playing fast and loose with the facts!

P.S. One more tidbit of info for you. Richie put Pool on ESPN years ahead of Cayton. Check your facts before posting please.

Sorry, but I was right in the middle of it. Paul Balukas and I negotiated the WPBA contract with Cayton. I know exactly what happened. Cayton signed several men and women players with promises of producing a certain number of ESPN events per year with added money from ESPN and high prize funds. I know what the terms of the contracts were and they were more than reasonable. Because Cayton was getting a substantial amount of money from ESPN for putting on events, he didn't want anyone undermining him with ESPN, which makes perfect sense.

When Florence attempted to undermine Cayton by giving away an event to ESPN for free, Cayton approached him and informed him that he had players under contract and that he wasn't going to give them permission to play in Florence's event, which again, makes perfect business sense.

Florence, however, became infuriated and managed to convince some players that they could legally break the contract because Cayton had no right to prevent the players from earning a living. Unfortunately for pool, players began to listen to Florence and refused to honor their contracts with Cayton.

Cayton could easily have taken the entire bunch, including Richie Florence to court, and win, but he decided not to bother. He was doing this as a favor to his friend Charlie Ursitti. He certainly didn't need this. You can ask Charlie. He will corroborate everything I'm saying here. Cayton walked away from everything and left us having to negotiate with ESPN having no clout whatsoever. After Richie gave away the event to ESPN for free, the precedent was set and we were stuck.

That is EXACTLY how it went down.

 

[Hungarian]

I live in Edmonton, Alberta Canada

Damn, sorry man, that sucks.

Just kidding. Hope the Oil Patch turns around for you guys...

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Sorry, but I was right in the middle of it. Paul Balukas and I negotiated the WPBA contract with Cayton. I know exactly what happened. Cayton signed several men and women players with promises of producing a certain number of ESPN events per year with added money from ESPN and high prize funds. I know what the terms of the contracts were and they were more than reasonable. Because Cayton was getting a substantial amount of money from ESPN for putting on events, he didn't want anyone undermining him with ESPN, which makes perfect sense.

When Florence attempted to undermine Cayton by giving away an event to ESPN for free, Cayton approached him and informed him that he had players under contract and that he wasn't going to give them permission to play in Florence's event, which again, makes perfect business sense.

Florence, however, became infuriated and managed to convince some players that they could legally break the contract because Cayton had no right to prevent the players from earning a living. Unfortunately for pool, players began to listen to Florence and refused to honor their contracts with Cayton.

Cayton could easily have taken the entire bunch, including Richie Florence to court, and win, but he decided not to bother. He was doing this as a favor to his friend Charlie Ursitti. He certainly didn't need this. You can ask Charlie. He will corroborate everything I'm saying here. Cayton walked away from everything and left us having to negotiate with ESPN having no clout whatsoever. After Richie gave away the event to ESPN for free, the precedent was set and we were stuck.

That is EXACTLY how it went down.

Interesting read, Fran. If I followed things correctly in your description of the events, then you are pretty much to blame for the demise of "professional pool" with ESPN. Well done.

If you need me to explain it to you, I will. But anyone with two shreds of business acumen will see where you designed a system that was sure to fail.

 

[justnum]

Interesting read, Fran. If I followed things correctly in your description of the events, then you are pretty much to blame for the demise of "professional pool" with ESPN. Well done.

If you need me to explain it to you, I will. But anyone with two shreds of business acumen will see where you designed a system that was sure to fail.

Its ok if they didn't pull it together back then.

Kevin Trudeau's International Pool Tour was the second coming of a return to pro pool golden era of prize money earnings.

But fans like you just keep looking for faults, instead of supporting events.

After that TAR was the third coming of a return to big money matches.

But fans like you just keep looking for faults, instead of supporting events.

Pro pool players were so lucky to have generous men like Kevin Trudeau and Justin Collett take a chance on the "questionable" characters of pro pool players.

Now all the pros have are a handful of ex-touring pros that are making events, that barely reach the prize levels of those golden era events.

Vivian is the start of women promoters on the scene. A new generation, and it is still alive. IPT and TAR, just quit because, well you know how pro pool players get.

Earl cant sit five seconds watching someone else runout, until he starts sharking. Need I go on about the other players.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Its ok if they didn't pull it together back then.

Kevin Trudeau's International Pool Tour was the second coming of a return to pro pool golden era of prize money earnings.

But fans like you just keep looking for faults, instead of supporting events.

After that TAR was the third coming of a return to big money matches.

But fans like you just keep looking for faults, instead of supporting events.

Pro pool players were so lucky to have generous men like Kevin Trudeau and Justin Collett take a chance on the "questionable" characters of pro pool players.

Now all the pros have are a handful of ex-touring pros that are making events, that barely reach the prize levels of those golden era events.

Vivian is the start of women promoters on the scene. A new generation, and it is still alive. IPT and TAR, just quit because, well you know how pro pool players get.

I hope Justin doesn't have a stroke seeing himself compared to KT....

Stop making statements about me, when you know nothing about me. I merely pointed out that if Fran did what she said in her post, then she is a contributor for the demise of ESPN's coverage of professional pool.

Most pool players are too short sighted to see how to grow the game. They think you grow the game at the professional level. You don't. You do not build a house from the roof down. Think about it.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

This is how TAR got chased away because fans dont want to support the people doing something to help the pro players. Fans that dont do anything other than complain.

What have you done for pro pool players, fellow AZB user.

I dont want your name because your not more important than the pros I USE AZB to support.

Fans that openly attack people sacrificing their time and money to make pro pool players have events to participate in.

You ask some STUPID questions. I DO NOT OWE PRO POOL PLAYERS A LIVING. They need to get up off their collective asses and build a system that can sustain them.

If the pros would give back to pool in some regard instead of looking for "money added", i.e. handouts.......they may have a living. Excellence at something isn't a guarantee of income. I could be the world's best VCR mechanic. Or the leading glockenspiel repair person. Times change. I play pool. And have a job. And I have kids. And their educations to pay for. So....AZ...how about you give ME your money? It will actually go towards something WORTHWHILE.

Mic drop.

 

[justnum]

Most pool players are too short sighted to see how to grow the game. They think you grow the game at the professional level. You don't. You do not build a house from the roof down. Think about it.

Sports Entertainment industry is not a house.

Its a show, you need to create a great show worth watching before anyone gets interested in doing anything else.

Right now this thread is about someone who is doing something for pro pool players.

And people just keep trying to tear down the effort.

People being critical with no experience in planning/budgeting/organizing/fundraising/running/managing an event.


This is how fans shoot themselves in the foot, bad mouthing events, scaring away sponsors and promoters.

Enjoy what is out there or go do something and put money up to start your own event.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Sports Entertainment industry is not a house.

Its a show, you need to create a great show worth watching before anyone gets interested in doing anything else.

Right now this thread is about someone who is doing something for pro pool players.

And people just keep trying to tear down the effort.

People being critical with no experience in planning/budgeting/organizing/fundraising/running/managing an event.


This is how fans shoot themselves in the foot, bad mouthing events, scaring away sponsors and promoters.

Enjoy what is out there or go do something and put money up to start your own event.

LOL. You have some "interesting" perspectives.....

"You need to create a great show worth watching". Ok...I'll bite. Care to enlighten me how to INCREASE your FAN BASE? Hint....I've watched Olympic highdiving. It's very athletic. And I'm amazed by what they do. Do you think I'm tuning in for the next world diving championships? Um, NO. Do you know who watches high diving? High divers. Guess who watches pool on TV? Yep....it's a leap.....pool players. So, how do you increase your fan base for pool? Create more pool players. I know...radical concept. It's why MLB is popular. As is football. And soccer. You have kids every year joining little leagues. And they start liking the sport that they play. And that translates into a kid that starts watching baseball on TV. Or he/she watches the game because their mom/dad watch the game.

That doesn't happen with pool. I've watched pool with my kids around. They think it's boring. Now, Sunday morning Moto GP? They're all over it. Because motorcycles are cool. Are you picking up what I'm putting down? You could offer the world's BEST production of a pool event....and you will capture precisely 0% of the general population. Pool players watch pool. Pool players attend the events. So when your general audience is telling you that you've produced an inferior event, perhaps you should listen. I really don't hear much complaining about Zuglan's Joss tour. And he's been doing it for a long time. Perhaps that's a guy that people should take some lessons from.

You want to build pool up? Start with the kids, and the leagues. That will increase your fan base. And would actually create interest in seeing higher level pool. Unfortunately, 90% of this board pisses on the leagues, and praises the pros. The leagues are the only thing keeping pool alive in North America. If pool relied on tournaments, it would die a quick death.

 

[justnum]

You are arguing two things.

You talk about creating more interest in leagues.

You argued for how the demise of pro pool through poor management, by referencing Fran.

Now you are angry that people are peepeeing on leagues.

Its great you've thought so much about the industry.

The only thing that is dying a quick death are non-pool player promoters, despite having lived so largely so briefly. Those promoters bubbled out.

You want to build pool up? Start with the kids, and the leagues. That will increase your fan base. And would actually create interest in seeing higher level pool. Unfortunately, 90% of this board pisses on the leagues, and praises the pros. The leagues are the only thing keeping pool alive in North America. If pool relied on tournaments, it would die a quick death.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You are arguing two things.

You talk about creating more interest in leagues.

You argued for how the demise of pro pool through poor management, by referencing Fran.

Now you are angry that people are peepeeing on leagues.

Its great you've thought so much about the industry.

The only thing that is dying a quick death are non-pool player promoters, despite having lived so largely so briefly. Those promoters bubbled out.

Never mind. You're drunk.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Enjoy what is out there? If you put on crappy events and dont payout correctly, players should just accept it and move on?

I cant believe the us open has had any players signing up in the last 5-10 yrs with the shit show that is. Hopefully Pat will put it on track and other big events will follow suit.

For far too long the sport/game has been a laughing stock on the proffessional level.

Same or worse payouts then there were in the 70s and 80s.

Maybe some day.

 

[ribdoner]

our game lacks INTEGRITY, as a result it is void of credibility and the future will resemble the past

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

our game lacks INTEGRITY, as a result it is void of credibility and the future will resemble the past

Is there any way to award 10 greens on one post?

 

[supergreenman]

This is how TAR got chased away because fans dont want to support the people doing something to help the pro players. Fans that dont do anything other than complain.

What have you done for pro pool players, fellow AZB user.

I dont want your name because your not more important than the pros I USE AZB to support.

Fans that openly attack people sacrificing their time and money to make pro pool players have events to participate in.

TAR failed because the overestimated the ability and the desire for fans to schedule time to sit down and watch pool live on the internet. This is a lesson that TV networks are also learning. People are busy and don't want to watch something at a certain time. they'd rather PVR it and watch it at their convenience.

I never once had the time to watch one of TARs streams, yet I supported them by purchasing some of their DVDs.

The on-demand platform is where it's at today.

 

[supergreenman]

Damn, sorry man, that sucks.

Just kidding. Hope the Oil Patch turns around for you guys...

lol @ posting pictures of that soap opera called the NHL.

As for the oil patch, no sympathy for the bunch of uneducated boobs that pulled in 100K+ a year and blew it all on toys like quads, hookers and blow then had nothing to show for it when the price went bust AGAIN.

 

[supergreenman]

Its ok if they didn't pull it together back then.

Kevin Trudeau's International Pool Tour was the second coming of a return to pro pool golden era of prize money earnings.

But fans like you just keep looking for faults, instead of supporting events.

After that TAR was the third coming of a return to big money matches.

But fans like you just keep looking for faults, instead of supporting events.

Pro pool players were so lucky to have generous men like Kevin Trudeau and Justin Collett take a chance on the "questionable" characters of pro pool players.

Now all the pros have are a handful of ex-touring pros that are making events, that barely reach the prize levels of those golden era events.

Vivian is the start of women promoters on the scene. A new generation, and it is still alive. IPT and TAR, just quit because, well you know how pro pool players get.

Earl cant sit five seconds watching someone else runout, until he starts sharking. Need I go on about the other players.

My eyes are bleeding, I can't believe you think Trudeau and the IPT were above board.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

My eyes are bleeding, I can't believe you think Trudeau and the IPT were above board.

The IPT was Mike Sigel and KT cooking up a way to give Mike a retirement fund,and KT a huge tax shelter/write off. Mission accomplished. The only problem was that Efren beat Mike in the finals...

 

[AtLarge]

The IPT was Mike Sigel and KT cooking up a way to give Mike a retirement fund,and KT a huge tax shelter/write off. Mission accomplished. The only problem was that Efren beat Mike in the finals...

well, yeah ............. but Mike beat Loree Jon in the IPT World 8-Ball Championship

 

[Island Drive]

well, yeah ............. but Mike beat Loree Jon in the IPT World 8-Ball Championship

At that time, Allison Fisher was at the top of her game. Also, heard the WPA board didn't want her to play Mike. Biggest mistake in the past 20 years....Like Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs, it gave tennis the shot it needed for the gals. If Allie woulda beat Mike, we'll we know Mike would much of preferred playing the Lamb, Lori John any day for the guaranteed 250K. But he's a pool player....took the money and ''ran''.