It's a bona fide miracle on ebay!!!!!!

Yeah... ok... you were 'making a joke'...



Whatever you say...

That's right. What's your problem? Did you think it wasn't a joke?

I mean talk about "stirring the crap"......what are YOU doing here? Got ANYTHING to say about the topic of the thread? I went to Ebay, looked at the offerings and responded to the OP's assertions.

And made a joke about Maniac's joke. Which HE then escalated into some douchey guilt trip about Somalia.

And then you just HAD to jump in with your opinion didn't you.

Try a mirror next time you want to hurl an accusation.
 
I will tell you something about myself. There are about a half dozen guys in the country who have the most extensive antique pool ball collections and some unknowns are out there collecting too. The unknowns don't associate with other collectors, and just buy. What you need to know is that I get calls and emails every day regarding my breadth of knowledge regarding antique billiard items, mostly balls. I am as authoritative on balls as any person in the nation.
I don't want to get sued and I know the law. But I put this thread up for a reason. Buyer beware. Sometimes you are dealing with such a good artist that if you doubted the item a catalog page could just materialize as fast as a catalog nh-cc-42xxx ball circa 1842.

So let's hear about what you bought from ebay.... sorry if I implied that you are a dunce. I should not have said that.


The problem is that without some sort of proof how is the average person to know that what you say is true?

I mean you are speaking about an obscure hobby with little in the way of references. And you say that the seller fabricates catalog pages to provide provenance for the balls you say he is counterfeiting.

Well unless you are willing to stand against him with an identity and some proof, say scans of all known billiard catalogs, then how can anyone be sure that you are telling the truth?

I mean a guy puts up a ball and says it's from xxx-catalog from 1919 with a image of a page and unless someone can look it up somewhere else where either the xxx-catalog from 1919 is posted OR someone else is claiming that no such catalog exists and invites the reader to submit anything that they cannot otherwise verify, then the average buyer on Ebay has NO CHANCE to be saved from purchasing counterfeit and faked antiques.
 
A seller on ebay has come across ten or twelve star inlaid cueballs, all different and each subsequent one more fancy than the last. Cueballs that no catalog has ever shown nor has any collector ever seen. It's a true miracle! I wonder if he can cure this back pain as well. Anyone out there know any buyers who have bought any of that "rare" stuff on ebay? Wow, he is really good at finding rare stuff, and at finding catalog numbers and descriptions that make it all sound legit.

I'm lost, where are the catalog references he's using to make his offerings sound legit? I'm looking at a pretty bare bones auction and I can't see the catalog numbers and descriptions?

Thanks

Kevin
 
I'm lost, where are the catalog references he's using to make his offerings sound legit? I'm looking at a pretty bare bones auction and I can't see the catalog numbers and descriptions?

Thanks

Kevin
I know nothing about antique cue balls, but I guess that I should learn.

The only catalog reference that I see is to the polish used to enhance their appearance, "*This Composition Ball has been hand cleaned, waxed and polished with BBC product catalog No. 18-14."
 
star cue balls

Five-pointed star cue balls were made by Hyatt for a long stretch. The known types are: black, red, and blue, and yellow, in increasing order of rarity. The stars are inlaid into a round plug about the same size as a number plug, and the plug is inlaid into the ball. There are also red and black stars on the bakelite (red/brown) "break ball" cueballs and those have no plug. There are a couple of other known variations. But the ones on ebay appear to have the same exact star shape/size as the hyatt ball. In one auction a fancy speckled star was inlaid into another color plug into a white cueball, and sold as the cueball with a Brunswick Ivorylene Dart set. The problem is that the Ivorylene Dart balls came with Brunswick-made diamond cueballs, usually a cream-colored bakelite ball with a yellow diamond.
In another instance a collector had contacted a seller inquiring as to whether the seller had seen various ball types. One type mentioned is a set that was inlaid with a black dot below the number on each ball in the set. After the conversation, suddenly Hyatt clay balls began appearing with said dot inlaid below the number on some miscellaneous balls for sale. Well, Hyatt balls are not the type that had the inlaid dot. I have a complete set, and I know of three other collectors who have partial sets. None of them are Hyatt. There are just too many examples to list.
If you buy a fancy inlaid cueball that I have not listed, take it to a place that will x-ray it and show that there is no plug, just a superficial inlay. Easy to prove. Later
 
Five-pointed star cue balls were made by Hyatt for a long stretch. The known types are: black, red, and blue, and yellow, in increasing order of rarity. The stars are inlaid into a round plug about the same size as a number plug, and the plug is inlaid into the ball. There are also red and black stars on the bakelite (red/brown) "break ball" cueballs and those have no plug. There are a couple of other known variations. But the ones on ebay appear to have the same exact star shape/size as the hyatt ball. In one auction a fancy speckled star was inlaid into another color plug into a white cueball, and sold as the cueball with a Brunswick Ivorylene Dart set. The problem is that the Ivorylene Dart balls came with Brunswick-made diamond cueballs, usually a cream-colored bakelite ball with a yellow diamond.
In another instance a collector had contacted a seller inquiring as to whether the seller had seen various ball types. One type mentioned is a set that was inlaid with a black dot below the number on each ball in the set. After the conversation, suddenly Hyatt clay balls began appearing with said dot inlaid below the number on some miscellaneous balls for sale. Well, Hyatt balls are not the type that had the inlaid dot. I have a complete set, and I know of three other collectors who have partial sets. None of them are Hyatt. There are just too many examples to list.
If you buy a fancy inlaid cueball that I have not listed, take it to a place that will x-ray it and show that there is no plug, just a superficial inlay. Easy to prove. Later

He said unto us all......"I AM WHO I AM"

Bows before thee
 
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Your advertising posts are not quite long enough

The problem is that without some sort of proof how is the average person to know that what you say is true?

I mean you are speaking about an obscure hobby with little in the way of references. And you say that the seller fabricates catalog pages to provide provenance for the balls you say he is counterfeiting.

Well unless you are willing to stand against him with an identity and some proof, say scans of all known billiard catalogs, then how can anyone be sure that you are telling the truth?

I mean a guy puts up a ball and says it's from xxx-catalog from 1919 with a image of a page and unless someone can look it up somewhere else where either the xxx-catalog from 1919 is posted OR someone else is claiming that no such catalog exists and invites the reader to submit anything that they cannot otherwise verify, then the average buyer on Ebay has NO CHANCE to be saved from purchasing counterfeit and faked antiques.

You are close, but you need to make your posts a tad longer so that your blatant ad presence will cover a whole page. Is it time to start "tearing up" input? You did not read carefully. If a person is willing to fake an item, then they would be willing to print up a corresponding catalog page. You seem like you understand my motives. Maybe I should act in my own self-interest only and just let others buy junk so they'll have fewer bullets to bid against me. Since I know what is real, I could easily be like Rick, and run my cafe' while the Nazis take over Casablanca. But Rick changed, and stood up to those who would harm others. As for you and I, your thread hijacking is not selling more cases. And it sure as hell isn't helping the BUYER BEWARE.
 
You are close, but you need to make your posts a tad longer so that your blatant ad presence will cover a whole page. Is it time to start "tearing up" input? You did not read carefully. If a person is willing to fake an item, then they would be willing to print up a corresponding catalog page. You seem like you understand my motives. Maybe I should act in my own self-interest only and just let others buy junk so they'll have fewer bullets to bid against me. Since I know what is real, I could easily be like Rick, and run my cafe' while the Nazis take over Casablanca. But Rick changed, and stood up to those who would harm others. As for you and I, your thread hijacking is not selling more cases. And it sure as hell isn't helping the BUYER BEWARE.

I am not hijacking your thread. You posted a cryptic message indicating that xx-seller on Ebay is counterfeiting merchandise.

So I took your invitation and went there to look at it.

As I said, just based on your ANONYMOUS TO US identity and what's presented on the auctions there is NO WAY for the average person to conclude that the items are faked. You haven't provided us with anything other than your own statement asserting your expertise to go on.

If this is intended to be a public service announcement then it failing horribly. Because if your intention is to provide a place where interested consumers can get a counter-opinion on these balls you have done it miserably.

You should have cut and pasted the relevant titles and descriptions into this thread so that the search engines would pick them up an then if a potential buyer would have the foresight to google the items, as I do when looking at an item I don't know much about, then this thread is likely to come up and thus the consumer is warned.

Have you outed this person with Ebay? Filed a police report? If what you say is true then he is defrauding people. With your expertise and the expertise of the handful of serious collectors out there you should be able to shut him down.

I am a stickler for accuracy when people make accusations of fraud and counterfeiting. My products are knocked off every day. When it happens to me I gather the evidence and then go for the knockout punch.

I did read your post. And my point is again that without any place to go on the web where a customer can CHECK the guy's supporting proof, such as where one could verify a catalog page, then the average buyer would not have much choice but to believe the seller.

Why don't you and your collector buddies make a page that outs this guy and shows that he is printing fraudulent evidence to sell counterfeit balls? Oh that's right, you said you don't want to be sued. Sued for ????

I mean if you are the expert then you should be able to prove he is defrauding buyers. With a 100% positive rating selling antique stuff I don't think he would get that if he were selling counterfeit products given how picky people are about antiques, especially expensive ones.

He has been a member since 99 and has 1500 positive transactions in that time. The stuff he is selling is very diverse but mainly focused on pool. If he is a counterfeiter then he is a very successful one to have gotten away with it for so long. It is your duty to see to it that he is banned from Ebay and arrested.

And this is why I don't get into the shadowy and dangerous world of collecting old balls.........

I would never have thought to spend the time to create a non-existent catalog page which no one else on the planet could corroborate if challenged. That takes some balls. :-)
 
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A seller on ebay has come across ten or twelve star inlaid cueballs, all different and each subsequent one more fancy than the last. Cueballs that no catalog has ever shown nor has any collector ever seen. It's a true miracle! I wonder if he can cure this back pain as well. Anyone out there know any buyers who have bought any of that "rare" stuff on ebay? Wow, he is really good at finding rare stuff, and at finding catalog numbers and descriptions that make it all sound legit.

No where in this original post do you give any hint that you have any expertise of this subject or even any general knowledge.
You are simply claiming they are fake because you have never seen them before.
This just sounded like your everyday knocker to me.

I am not really interested in the balls, although I do know some things about them and have some just as examples.
I will just take your word for it that you are an expert on the subject and try to understand some of this.
You are only questioning the star cueballs?
And you say that he is altering a legitimate ball to add stars that are not in catalogs and would therefore be much rarer than they were originally?
You also have examples of this being done to friends of yours in the past?
Is this correct?
The star cueball with original box is a nice find but I have seen them listed before for a lot less.
Can you give a link to the balls you think are faked please?
Most of the really unique stuff is being sold by the same person, seller, "onehole", is that what you are talking about?
 
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Other collectors wanted to know

No where in this original post do you give any hint that you have any expertise of this subject or even any general knowledge.
You are simply claiming they are fake because you have never seen them before.
This just sounded like your everyday knocker to me.

I am not really interested in the balls, although I do know some things about them and have some just as examples.
I will just take your word for it that you are an expert on the subject and try to understand some of this.
You are only questioning the star cueballs?
And you say that he is altering a legitimate ball to add stars that are not in catalogs and would therefore be much rarer than they were originally?
You also have examples of this being done to friends of yours in the past?
Is this correct?
The star cueball with original box is a nice find but I have seen them listed before for a lot less.
Can you give a link to the balls you think are faked please?
Most of the really unique stuff is being sold by the same person, seller, "onehole", is that what you are talking about?

I said what I said cryptically because of legal issues. Funny how my vague post led you to a very specific place even though I did not post a link. I put this on here for pool ball collectors who wanted to know my position on this stuff, and there you have it. No, I will not get more specific. Links have been posted by others, conclusions have been drawn, and I have made input without leaving myself in trouble. Other posters decided which items I was talking about. It worked out fine. I will say this. Mark Stellinga bought a cue rack on ebay for ten thousand dollars. Let me be clear on this: $10,000.00. That is a staggering sum of money. He returned it because he is an expert. If you would like to contact him about it then he can explain to you why I had to put in my two cents. Luckily for me, I have not lost even that much on fakes. Because I listen to those who know. And now I know. I hope I have helped someone.
 
I said what I said cryptically because of legal issues. Funny how my vague post led you to a very specific place even though I did not post a link. I put this on here for pool ball collectors who wanted to know my position on this stuff, and there you have it. No, I will not get more specific. Links have been posted by others, conclusions have been drawn, and I have made input without leaving myself in trouble. Other posters decided which items I was talking about. It worked out fine. I will say this. Mark Stellinga bought a cue rack on ebay for ten thousand dollars. Let me be clear on this: $10,000.00. That is a staggering sum of money. He returned it because he is an expert. If you would like to contact him about it then he can explain to you why I had to put in my two cents. Luckily for me, I have not lost even that much on fakes. Because I listen to those who know. And now I know. I hope I have helped someone.
This was a really helpful post for me....sometimes I think I have the subtlety of a man who goes fishing with dynamite.
There have been cases of fakes in museums where the art expert felt
something was wrong and took a long time to discover why...but his
feelings were right.
At a tournament with John McChesney years ago, a Balabuska was
being offered at a reasonable price...John and I looked at each other
and took a pass (it didn't FEEL right)...I phoned him 3 months later...
..I had bought the cue for $260...it was worth more than that but it
wasn't a Balabuska.
A friend bought a Szamboti...when he showed it to me I told him I
wouldn't have let him buy it if I were there..it turned out to be fake.

So I hope you post a lot more, HS...you bring a lot to this forum.

regards
pt
 
You posted the guy's ebay handle. I invited him to post here and defend the accusations if he can credibly do so.
 
I said what I said cryptically because of legal issues. Funny how my vague post led you to a very specific place even though I did not post a link. I put this on here for pool ball collectors who wanted to know my position on this stuff, and there you have it. No, I will not get more specific. Links have been posted by others, conclusions have been drawn, and I have made input without leaving myself in trouble. Other posters decided which items I was talking about. It worked out fine. I will say this. Mark Stellinga bought a cue rack on ebay for ten thousand dollars. Let me be clear on this: $10,000.00. That is a staggering sum of money. He returned it because he is an expert. If you would like to contact him about it then he can explain to you why I had to put in my two cents. Luckily for me, I have not lost even that much on fakes. Because I listen to those who know. And now I know. I hope I have helped someone.

I'm sorry but none of this makes any sense at all to me.
You post that there are fake star balls for sale , and that anybody that buys this crap is an idiot .
I look for star balls and there are 12 listed .
I see a bunch of the same stuff I have been seeing for the last 4 years, that is, or was, from Stellingas collection.
I also see one other person with many star balls .
Also you said you posted this to give the other ball collectors your position on this stuff.
I really don't think anyone who had not been collecting for some time and was very knowledgeable themselves would be buying any $450.00 cue balls.{Especially pool players , as they are notoriously cheap}
I have one of the star cueballs , I would be shocked if I could sell it for $40.00
 
Xrays

I just had xrays taken of a genuine Hyatt star cueball. I will see if my cell phone will pick up the subtleties. I have seen fake star cueballs, fake poker balls, a fake zig zag, a Hyatt plain clay ball with a fake dot inlaid into it, fake speckling, fake engraved numbers, even an all-red ivory set that was faked. Among the foremost collectors, opinions on what is real and what is fake are agreed on. It is easy to tell. But a lot of newbies get taken. I see wooden ball boxes that are stained with brown stain when that was not done originally, etc. Soooo much b.s.
 
I can kind of see what your saying about the ebay balls...

Nowadays people look for a COA on antiques. An underhanded seller cannot possibly get a COA, so he "finds" the next best thing... A page from an obscure catalog that "verifies" that what he has is legitimate. And anybody that emails the seller to question the validity of the catalog page is likely not going to get a response.

I don't know enough about star ivory balls to say what's real and what's not. But if I were considering a purchase, Hunger Strike's PSA just made me want to ask the seller where I might find the catalog that references his auction item. And if the seller isn't willing to answer my question on a $400 sale, I'm gonna pass.

Just my $.02...
 
I'm interested in this discussion out of my love of history.

Hope everyone can get along, share some knowledge and learn something.

Thanks to everyone contributing. This is a great site.
 
Things to look for...

Be wary of polished balls. When someone makes an inlay on something old, it is difficult to have a smooth surface unless there is sanding and/or polishing. This blue diamond still has its dirt and patina; the seller had a buy-it-now for less than $20, probably because he has zero Ebay feedback and needs to sell a few things cheap to get enough rep to sell higher; and I have seen the Brunswick box for a Blue Diamond cueball. No red flags here.
 

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Cracks move...

This blue star cueball is pretty, well yes, rare. Came from a reputable dealer who I know personally. The patina is there, unpolished. Most importantly look at the ring where the star plug was inlaid ...the material shifted after cracking occurred, so the circular line shifts. That is because the plug is deep, like a faultline. I also xrayed the ball. It's real. And it is NOT called a Liberty ball except by Ebay sellers.
 

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