It's Not the same game...

[Guy Manges]

the games are the same, but the play is just better

You could be wright. rd 395 all the way...Guy

 

[ShootingArts]

Wonder if thats why the best players in the last few years have gone to a longer bridge ?

A deep dark secret is that almost everyone uses too long of a bridge for best accuracy hitting the cue ball. It simplifies the cue ball's path but the trade off is not hitting the cue ball accurately. Polish up the cue ball or the nine ball if you are using a measles ball. You need one precise point to hit. The hole in the "9" is good or the dot, circle, or trademark on a cue ball will work. Now work the tip around the clock at random while using near maximum offset looking at the object ball last as usual. Those few that look at the cue ball last don't have as much of an issue but very few hit that white ball as accurately as they think.

15-30 minutes spent at the beginning of every session with the main focus on hitting the cue ball exactly where you intended to would benefit almost everyone "A" and below according to a quick sampling I conducted one time. I set up a fairly simple shot, 3/4 table length and about seventy-five degree cut I set the nine ball out and told them to use it as the cue ball so I could indicate the exact spin I wanted. Out of about a dozen people, banger to shortstop or A+, only two hit the nine exactly where told to. Both of those players looked at the cue ball last and one was an absolute banger.

Speaking for myself, when not in stroke I hit about an eighth or a bit less high and about half that distance left of the intended contact point. I thought I would have issues hitting the contact point but I expected to see a random pattern all around the contact point instead of a very consistent hit.

This held true of the other casual acquaintances I snagged as they walked by my table at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans. Most when told the object of the exercise could then correct and hit exactly where intended as all but that one banger were regular denizens of the hall.

When shooting at the money ball for all of the marbles almost all of us could benefit from cutting our bridge length in half or being very careful where we are hitting the cue ball.

Seems like Earl was one of those that helped bring on the long bridge fad that has became ingrained. It does take awhile to get used to aiming especially with a closed bridge as after awhile I aimed with part of the stick on both sides of the bridge, in front of and behind the bridge, but it soon becomes automatic on longer shots.

Hu

 

[buckshotshoey]

So much of this games is seeing in a subconscious way... Did you watch Shane shooting ,blind, for an exhibition eyes closed... On youtube

Haven't seen it. I'll have to look for it later

 

[couldnthinkof01]

So much of this games is seeing in a subconscious way... Did you watch Shane shooting ,blind, for an exhibition eyes closed... On youtube

Speaking of watching YouTube. I was watching one of the Ko bros videos. They were talking about head position in relation to draw shots or power shots. Demonstrated a low head position on an unimpeded med speed shot. Then, a draw shot where you raise up slightly. I had been doing this without realizing it. Went back and watched some of my practice videos and there I was. There is an argument to be made where both have their advantage on different common shots.

 

[Guy Manges]

A deep dark secret is that almost everyone uses too long of a bridge for best accuracy hitting the cue ball. It simplifies the cue ball's path but the trade off is not hitting the cue ball accurately. Polish up the cue ball or the nine ball if you are using a measles ball. You need one precise point to hit. The hole in the "9" is good or the dot, circle, or trademark on a cue ball will work. Now work the tip around the clock at random while using near maximum offset looking at the object ball last as usual. Those few that look at the cue ball last don't have as much of an issue but very few hit that white ball as accurately as they think.

15-30 minutes spent at the beginning of every session with the main focus on hitting the cue ball exactly where you intended to would benefit almost everyone "A" and below according to a quick sampling I conducted one time. I set up a fairly simple shot, 3/4 table length and about seventy-five degree cut I set the nine ball out and told them to use it as the cue ball so I could indicate the exact spin I wanted. Out of about a dozen people, banger to shortstop or A+, only two hit the nine exactly where told to. Both of those players looked at the cue ball last and one was an absolute banger.

Speaking for myself, when not in stroke I hit about an eighth or a bit less high and about half that distance left of the intended contact point. I thought I would have issues hitting the contact point but I expected to see a random pattern all around the contact point instead of a very consistent hit.

This held true of the other casual acquaintances I snagged as they walked by my table at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans. Most when told the object of the exercise could then correct and hit exactly where intended as all but that one banger were regular denizens of the hall.

When shooting at the money ball for all of the marbles almost all of us could benefit from cutting our bridge length in half or being very careful where we are hitting the cue ball.

Seems like Earl was one of those that helped bring on the long bridge fad that has became ingrained. It does take awhile to get used to aiming especially with a closed bridge as after awhile I aimed with part of the stick on both sides of the bridge, in front of and behind the bridge, but it soon becomes automatic on longer shots.

Hu

Hu, I see most all the top 16 Joy rated players use the extra long bridge 10 or better on many shots, both with cf and ld maple with low play or chin close to cue, I've been trying to coordinate the two. With this I find very few errors in their games... These players use lots of force follow for placement. In my playing time of life this would be backward, there would be no bhe. Their elbow almost never drops, so this seems wright to me... Guy

 

[ShootingArts]

Hu, I see most all the top 16 Joy rated players use the extra long bridge 10 or better on many shots, both with cf and ld maple with low play or chin close to cue, I've been trying to coordinate the two. With this I find very few errors in their games... These players use lots of force follow for placement. In my playing time of life this would be backward, there would be no bhe. Their elbow almost never drops, so this seems wright to me... Guy

Guy, They may be getting low enough to add extra anchor points to stabilize that tip out there a long ways past their bridge. I'm not talking about ten or twelve inch bridges which I consider about maximum without cause or a very easy shot, I am talking these sixteen inch and more bridges that aren't uncommon.

The extremely long bridges might be the cause of some of the unexpected misses by the top sixteen rated but I'm not talking so much about the top sixteen or even top hundred as I am talking about all of the B players and above who routinely use longer bridges than they have to. They have seen the elite using these bridges, they have to be good! The elite that are making their living playing pool can put in the hours to do things we can't.

Hu

 

[Guy Manges]

Guy, They may be getting low enough to add extra anchor points to stabilize that tip out there a long ways past their bridge. I'm not talking about ten or twelve inch bridges which I consider about maximum without cause or a very easy shot, I am talking these sixteen inch and more bridges that aren't uncommon.

The extremely long bridges might be the cause of some of the unexpected misses by the top sixteen rated but I'm not talking so much about the top sixteen or even top hundred as I am talking about all of the B players and above who routinely use longer bridges than they have to. They have seen the elite using these bridges, they have to be good! The elite that are making their living playing pool can put in the hours to do things we can't.

Hu

So many of those young Chinese players earn my respect, you have to remember that I've probably watched 10 thousand of their matches... I have to learn that you are talking of A, B and C players. I just watched a young man or boy 11 years old beat a seasoned pro too 17 games, can you just imagine... Guy, Oh I think that 11 year old might have missed 5 times in 17 game win... This was 8 Ball and those were mostly BandR...

 

[Guy Manges]

At least for me, getting too low on the cue interferes with the ergonomics of my stroke and makes seeing cut angles very difficult. It does make it easier to see the alignment of cue and balls but I don't usually seem to give up much with my chin 6-8" above the cue. Also, if I am sloppy with my vision center alignment, being higher up seems to reduce the error. As I improve, my stroke is more accurate so maybe there is a little more tolerance. If my stroke is accurate to put the cue ball within 1/8" and the shot has 1/8" room for error, then I need to make sure my point of aim is perfect. If I can deliver the cue ball within 1/16", the there is a little room for error in aiming. My aiming is also becoming more accurate.

6or8"i don't see as on the cue or lower play... I see that as old school play... Guy

 

[ShootingArts]

So many of those young Chinese players earn my respect, you have to remember that I've probably watched 10 thousand of their matches... I have to learn that you are talking of A, B and C players. I just watched a young man or boy 11 years old beat a seasoned pro too 17 games, can you just imagine... Guy, Oh I think that 11 year old might have missed 5 times in 17 game win... This was 8 Ball and those were mostly BandR...

I have seen very little of the chinese. No good reason, I don't do TV and mostly don't watch new matches on the net, mostly old matches that interest me or like the match I noticed Bob Jewett playing Shane 14.1 the other night. I watched the Ko brothers a bit a couple years ago.

I generally make it obvious when I am talking about C players or below or those above A level. Shortstops I usually have to spell out pretty closely too as the meaning of shortstop has drifted down over the years. It used to be above A, now people seem to consider it below A. I never considered myself better than a shortstop but that meant that nobody in the world was a guaranteed winner if they came to me on my turf. Of course I could lose too.

Hu

 

[straightline]

no. ronnie does drop his elbow though. svb too.

Hence possibly the bad disc.

 

[Guy Manges]

Old school player to old school player.
There is a happy medium play height above the cue stick on a regulation pool table, but not explainable in specific inches above or actually touching the cue stick.
Here goes:
Down on each shot, if you cannot see the diamonds on the far rail, you are too low upon the cue stick.
Down on each shot, if you can see the floor on the opposite side of the table, you are too high above the cue stick.
Try it, you may like it.
Make it easy on yourself.

That was a respond to a member, I'm an old man dieing of lung infection... Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

I have seen very little of the chinese. No good reason, I don't do TV and mostly don't watch new matches on the net, mostly old matches that interest me or like the match I noticed Bob Jewett playing Shane 14.1 the other night. I watched the Ko brothers a bit a couple years ago.

I generally make it obvious when I am talking about C players or below or those above A level. Shortstops I usually have to spell out pretty closely too as the meaning of shortstop has drifted down over the years. It used to be above A, now people seem to consider it below A. I never considered myself better than a shortstop but that meant that nobody in the world was a guaranteed winner if they came to me on my turf. Of course I could lose too.

Hu

Hu, now I'm real old so if I'm not on the forum then I'm on YouTube, powerful thirst for knowledge... I like my 8 Ball viewing to be 1,2 and out or good defensive game... If I have a chose in after life then clean up 8 Ball will be my world... Not break, just Clean up... Guy

 

[Guy Manges]

Speaking of watching YouTube. I was watching one of the Ko bros videos. They were talking about head position in relation to draw shots or power shots. Demonstrated a low head position on an unimpeded med speed shot. Then, a draw shot where you raise up slightly. I had been doing this without realizing it. Went back and watched some of my practice videos and there I was. There is an argument to be made where both have their advantage on different common shots.

Dropping the elbow, sometime is nothing but dropping the elbow, I can see no difference... Square too the table seems to have as much value... Guy

 

[ShootingArts]

Dropping the elbow, sometime is nothing but dropping the elbow, I can see no difference... Square too the table seems to have as much value... Guy

There are caveats to all things it seems like. A pendulum stroke doesn't work well unless you can get comparatively low to the table. A pump or piston stroke is easier to control with a higher stance. No problem dropping the elbow as part of your normal stroke and no problem dropping your elbow about one inch after initial contact with the cue ball. I give a little extra and say two inches or maybe a quarter second. Contact only lasts a few thousandths of a second and of course it matters not at all what we do after that. My habit of flinging my stick in the air and cursing doesn't affect my stroke at all in the area that counts!(grin)

Hu

 

[Jaden]

A deep dark secret is that almost everyone uses too long of a bridge for best accuracy hitting the cue ball. It simplifies the cue ball's path but the trade off is not hitting the cue ball accurately. Polish up the cue ball or the nine ball if you are using a measles ball. You need one precise point to hit. The hole in the "9" is good or the dot, circle, or trademark on a cue ball will work. Now work the tip around the clock at random while using near maximum offset looking at the object ball last as usual. Those few that look at the cue ball last don't have as much of an issue but very few hit that white ball as accurately as they think.

15-30 minutes spent at the beginning of every session with the main focus on hitting the cue ball exactly where you intended to would benefit almost everyone "A" and below according to a quick sampling I conducted one time. I set up a fairly simple shot, 3/4 table length and about seventy-five degree cut I set the nine ball out and told them to use it as the cue ball so I could indicate the exact spin I wanted. Out of about a dozen people, banger to shortstop or A+, only two hit the nine exactly where told to. Both of those players looked at the cue ball last and one was an absolute banger.

Speaking for myself, when not in stroke I hit about an eighth or a bit less high and about half that distance left of the intended contact point. I thought I would have issues hitting the contact point but I expected to see a random pattern all around the contact point instead of a very consistent hit.

This held true of the other casual acquaintances I snagged as they walked by my table at Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans. Most when told the object of the exercise could then correct and hit exactly where intended as all but that one banger were regular denizens of the hall.

When shooting at the money ball for all of the marbles almost all of us could benefit from cutting our bridge length in half or being very careful where we are hitting the cue ball.

Seems like Earl was one of those that helped bring on the long bridge fad that has became ingrained. It does take awhile to get used to aiming especially with a closed bridge as after awhile I aimed with part of the stick on both sides of the bridge, in front of and behind the bridge, but it soon becomes automatic on longer shots.

Hu

I disagree Hu and here's why.

At first glance, and all things being equal, yes, you are correct, the closer to the tip your bridge, the more stable the stroke. Here's where that is NOT true.

Compare a standard maple shaft with a predator LD shaft. We all acknowledge that the LD shaft squirts the CB LESS than a standard maple shaft. So even a feel player is aiming closer to normal on spin shots than with a standard deflection maple shaft.

So the amount of difference in accuracy of tip placement with a stroke from farther back would have to be greater than the amount of difference in squirt from those two shafts for the longer stroke to be less accurate which I just don't think is the case.

I know this as someone who switched to a LD shaft, mcdermott i-2, from a standard shaft, southwest and lengthened my bridge.

Now granted, I have a better stroke than most, so my experience is anecdotal, but the point is the same. I think the variance in stability between a shorter bridge and a longer bridge is negligible when taking into consideration the REASON for a longer bridge with LD tech.

Now, let's look at the secondary reason. Before I mentioned that all things being equal for a feel player.

The secondary reason is that BHE adjusts for many stroke flaws, it allows for swiping and swooping by it's very nature. To be at the cue's pivot point with LD tech, you HAVE to use a longer bridge and if you're bridging at the cue's pivot point, then for the majority of shots the only thing that NOT hitting the cb at the desired point is going to do is throw off position some.

So what I'm saying is, is that it's FAR more important to find and bridge from the cue's pivot point than it is to add stability by bridging closer to the cb and that's true whether using BHE or playing by feel.

Jaden

 

[ShootingArts]

I disagree Hu and here's why.

At first glance, and all things being equal, yes, you are correct, the closer to the tip your bridge, the more stable the stroke. Here's where that is NOT true.

Compare a standard maple shaft with a predator LD shaft. We all acknowledge that the LD shaft squirts the CB LESS than a standard maple shaft. So even a feel player is aiming closer to normal on spin shots than with a standard deflection maple shaft.

So the amount of difference in accuracy of tip placement with a stroke from farther back would have to be greater than the amount of difference in squirt from those two shafts for the longer stroke to be less accurate which I just don't think is the case.

I know this as someone who switched to a LD shaft, mcdermott i-2, from a standard shaft, southwest and lengthened my bridge.

Now granted, I have a better stroke than most, so my experience is anecdotal, but the point is the same. I think the variance in stability between a shorter bridge and a longer bridge is negligible when taking into consideration the REASON for a longer bridge with LD tech.

Now, let's look at the secondary reason. Before I mentioned that all things being equal for a feel player.

The secondary reason is that BHE adjusts for many stroke flaws, it allows for swiping and swooping by it's very nature. To be at the cue's pivot point with LD tech, you HAVE to use a longer bridge and if you're bridging at the cue's pivot point, then for the majority of shots the only thing that NOT hitting the cb at the desired point is going to do is throw off position some.

So what I'm saying is, is that it's FAR more important to find and bridge from the cue's pivot point than it is to add stability by bridging closer to the cb.

Jaden

Jaden,

A well reasoned discussion. However, your discussion involves a shaft change. Nothing stopping the further forward bridge with a carbon fiber shaft. Haven't been playing lately for several reasons but I played with the Cynergy low deflection shaft for about a year, bridging all over the place. Shorter bridge for normal play longer for the times I was too lazy to grab a bridge. I know how the cue ball will behave hit off center so no big deal when I use my typical, for me, about ten or twelve inch bridge.

I have never pried into your exact skill level but I know it is pretty advanced. What isn't an issue for you may be an issue for many others. Also, you are a pretty serious student of the game. Go to your favorite pool halls and ask the guys that seem to be always there what a pivot point is. Ask them where the pivot point is on their cue. I think the vast majority will give you a blank look!

I typically use a parallel shift for side spin. Sometimes a touch of backhand added for fine tuning of the cue ball's path. I have also used just backhand for long periods. Mixed a parallel shift with front or backhand english, tried half front and half back hand english. I like BHE least of all. Front hand english has a lot of potential but like a parallel shift needs to be used enough to make adjustments before putting down your bridge hand.

From a simple I suppose trigonometrical standpoint a back hand shift seems worst of all. It puts the stick angle side to side at a greater angle to the cue ball path than any other form of english.

We all tend to stick with what we are used to and after the experimentation I revert to a parallel shift but I think if I worked with it enough it came natural I might favor a front hand shift. You need to put in a hundred hours or more trying each variation of english and when we start combining them the combinations are endless. I even tried all three ways of applying english used at the same time for a few hours one day. Decided it was overkill.

Anytime we get away from centerline what we do involves trade-offs. Which ones we choose to make probably depends on what we are accustomed to. I often use a bridge I consider too long but that is just sloppy play. What I get away with is helped by being a centerline player. I mostly stick to within a half tip of centerline, which makes most of this discussion not apply to my play. Interesting exercise though and I always enjoy intelligent conversation!

Hu

 

[Jaden]

Jaden,

A well reasoned discussion. However, your discussion involves a shaft change. Nothing stopping the further forward bridge with a carbon fiber shaft. Haven't been playing lately for several reasons but I played with the Cynergy low deflection shaft for about a year, bridging all over the place. Shorter bridge for normal play longer for the times I was too lazy to grab a bridge. I know how the cue ball will behave hit off center so no big deal when I use my typical, for me, about ten or twelve inch bridge.

I have never pried into your exact skill level but I know it is pretty advanced. What isn't an issue for you may be an issue for many others. Also, you are a pretty serious student of the game. Go to your favorite pool halls and ask the guys that seem to be always there what a pivot point is. Ask them where the pivot point is on their cue. I think the vast majority will give you a blank look!

I typically use a parallel shift for side spin. Sometimes a touch of backhand added for fine tuning of the cue ball's path. I have also used just backhand for long periods. Mixed a parallel shift with front or backhand english, tried half front and half back hand english. I like BHE least of all. Front hand english has a lot of potential but like a parallel shift needs to be used enough to make adjustments before putting down your bridge hand.

From a simple I suppose trigonometrical standpoint a back hand shift seems worst of all. It puts the stick angle side to side at a greater angle to the cue ball path than any other form of english.

We all tend to stick with what we are used to and after the experimentation I revert to a parallel shift but I think if I worked with it enough it came natural I might favor a front hand shift. You need to put in a hundred hours or more trying each variation of english and when we start combining them the combinations are endless. I even tried all three ways of applying english used at the same time for a few hours one day. Decided it was overkill.

Anytime we get away from centerline what we do involves trade-offs. Which ones we choose to make probably depends on what we are accustomed to. I often use a bridge I consider too long but that is just sloppy play. What I get away with is helped by being a centerline player. I mostly stick to within a half tip of centerline, which makes most of this discussion not apply to my play. Interesting exercise though and I always enjoy intelligent conversation!

Hu

Absolutely, if you're a feel player and you're not going to attempt to understand pivot point and to bridge there when you can, then absolutely, bridge closer to the front, it will stabilize your stroke and you'll hit more accurately on the cb where you're trying to.

Now be careful though, because parallel shift always works better the lower the deflection (or cb squirt) your shaft has. It will require feel and coming into the shot knowing exactly where you want to hit the ball and with how much and what type of spin. Consistency will also require a consistent repeatable stroke.

There are massive advantages in overcoming stroke inconsistency and stroke flaws with using BHE. However, the danger in using BHE to compensate for stroke flaws is the same problem players have with things like playing differently, looking at different positions, pulling up on the stroke under pressure versus non-pressure practice. That danger being that you will be rewarded with making shots for bad behavior. Now, what you'll also find is that your position play will be off even when you make the shots that you have stroke flaws on, but most people consider making the shot the largest reward and you don't want to subconsciously train stroke flaws into your game.

Jaden

 

[Guy Manges]

I disagree Hu and here's why.

At first glance, and all things being equal, yes, you are correct, the closer to the tip your bridge, the more stable the stroke. Here's where that is NOT true.

Compare a standard maple shaft with a predator LD shaft. We all acknowledge that the LD shaft squirts the CB LESS than a standard maple shaft. So even a feel player is aiming closer to normal on spin shots than with a standard deflection maple shaft.

So the amount of difference in accuracy of tip placement with a stroke from farther back would have to be greater than the amount of difference in squirt from those two shafts for the longer stroke to be less accurate which I just don't think is the case.

I know this as someone who switched to a LD shaft, mcdermott i-2, from a standard shaft, southwest and lengthened my bridge.

Now granted, I have a better stroke than most, so my experience is anecdotal, but the point is the same. I think the variance in stability between a shorter bridge and a longer bridge is negligible when taking into consideration the REASON for a longer bridge with LD tech.

Now, let's look at the secondary reason. Before I mentioned that all things being equal for a feel player.

The secondary reason is that BHE adjusts for many stroke flaws, it allows for swiping and swooping by it's very nature. To be at the cue's pivot point with LD tech, you HAVE to use a longer bridge and if you're bridging at the cue's pivot point, then for the majority of shots the only thing that NOT hitting the cb at the desired point is going to do is throw off position some.

So what I'm saying is, is that it's FAR more important to find and bridge from the cue's pivot point than it is to add stability by bridging closer to the cb and that's true whether using BHE or playing by feel.

Jaden

I agree Jaden, I know your not talking to me here... I to played i-2 and i-3 mac. And found the same, But Adjusting my overall self I could go to a house cue and do the same, even my bridge length I could adjust and find the pivot point, it seems adjustments are the key to finding... Guy, Oh and moderation...

 

[Island Drive]

It's not the same pool game anymore as once was played, pocket billiards all over this world players are putting their chin on or real close to the cue stick and hand on extreme butt of cue in all games... No more the same physical game ? ... Guy

As are all professional sports................

 

[Guy Manges]

Jaden,

A well reasoned discussion. However, your discussion involves a shaft change. Nothing stopping the further forward bridge with a carbon fiber shaft. Haven't been playing lately for several reasons but I played with the Cynergy low deflection shaft for about a year, bridging all over the place. Shorter bridge for normal play longer for the times I was too lazy to grab a bridge. I know how the cue ball will behave hit off center so no big deal when I use my typical, for me, about ten or twelve inch bridge.

I have never pried into your exact skill level but I know it is pretty advanced. What isn't an issue for you may be an issue for many others. Also, you are a pretty serious student of the game. Go to your favorite pool halls and ask the guys that seem to be always there what a pivot point is. Ask them where the pivot point is on their cue. I think the vast majority will give you a blank look!

I typically use a parallel shift for side spin. Sometimes a touch of backhand added for fine tuning of the cue ball's path. I have also used just backhand for long periods. Mixed a parallel shift with front or backhand english, tried half front and half back hand english. I like BHE least of all. Front hand english has a lot of potential but like a parallel shift needs to be used enough to make adjustments before putting down your bridge hand.

From a simple I suppose trigonometrical standpoint a back hand shift seems worst of all. It puts the stick angle side to side at a greater angle to the cue ball path than any other form of english.

We all tend to stick with what we are used to and after the experimentation I revert to a parallel shift but I think if I worked with it enough it came natural I might favor a front hand shift. You need to put in a hundred hours or more trying each variation of english and when we start combining them the combinations are endless. I even tried all three ways of applying english used at the same time for a few hours one day. Decided it was overkill.

Anytime we get away from centerline what we do involves trade-offs. Which ones we choose to make probably depends on what we are accustomed to. I often use a bridge I consider too long but that is just sloppy play. What I get away with is helped by being a centerline player. I mostly stick to within a half tip of centerline, which makes most of this discussion not apply to my play. Interesting exercise though and I always enjoy intelligent conversation!

Hu

These words are good... thank you... Guy