ivory ferrules

billfishhead said:
plastics are petrolium distilates,,,,,,,,,,,yeah I remember the exxon valdez. f l is just as irresponsible for using plastic to ruin our ecosystem. probibly more irresponsable. after all im not putting more oil platforms out in the gulf and alaska right now


Would you prefer to ride a horse in the snow or rain to your pool hall or drive your car there. If you want to drive your car then there must be oil rigs. I once worked for Continental Oil. There are a lot of plastic things made with by products that were once disgarded. Plastics have changed our lives and are every where around you. What is your keyboard made of you type your message on. A big chunk of your car is plastic. Go kick your bumpers and tell me what they are made of please?

Ivory cue balls were notorious for going out of round and cracking due to temperature variations.
A cue ball throughout history has always been $100 each because of the cost of sending in hunters into Africa, tracking down the elephant, Killing him and dragging the hugh tusk out of the bush. It was very dangerous work and a couple hundred hunters perished every year killing the 15,000 Elephants they would annually kill and harvest.
There was a call to end this madness and invent a product that would stay round and perform better. A small fortune was offered. A man called Hyatt invented the product and collected the reward. He was the father of the plastic industry and billiards commissioned the development of that product.

No sane person today would give up oil or plastic and go back to how it was before. We would be back to then Killing Whales and buring their oil in our lamps. I would rather ride my town car to the pool hall and leave trigger out in the field my self.

No matter what the product, there is a cost to produce it. It is all one big trade off is it not? Accidents do happen and yes the Valdeze was a terrible one for the wildlife. That was not a pretty sight.
 
I have no problem with using either ivory or elkhorn as long as the meat from the animal is eaten and not left to rot. People are starving in America.
 
fast larry said:
Ivory cue balls were notorious for going out of round and cracking due to temperature variations.
A cue ball throughout history has always been $100 each because of the cost of sending in hunters into Africa, tracking down the elephant, Killing him and dragging the hugh tusk out of the bush. It was very dangerous work and a couple hundred hunters perished every year killing the 15,000 Elephants they would annually kill and harvest.

Larry,
Ok the whole thread you have been saying how cheap ivory really is, and that Blud and his associates overcharge for it and now here you are saying how expensive it is and the human life toll it supposedly took. So which is it? Do you even know?

You the other day: People push and sell Ivory ferrules because they have the Ivory for almost no cost and they sell the ferrule for about $100.

Larry save the fast double talking for the trick shot shows please...

Joe
 
These lame ass arguments keep getting worse and worse. Mosconi ran 526 in 53 because that was the only ferrule he could get. He did not have a choice. If he had a red dot or a 314 then to choose, it's a damn good bet he would have used it.

Three things.. in 1953 there most certainly was an ivory substitute for ferrules as I have many catalogs that list such a product. Secondly you cannot be sure what Mosconi would have used as you are not a fortune teller. Third, if the materials are so much better, and the 314 and the Meucci so far advanced, who is even close to breaking the record?

I have video tapes of this, would you like a copy, it would make any animal lover puke in horror.

You have video tapes of everything.. from matches played in 1939 to this that and the other thing. I would bet you have video of the Loch Ness Monster to if it was the subject of a thread.

My 925 and 693 Persimmon head drivers with my 60's shafts might drive the ball 270. Metal head drives and Graphite shafts now drive the ball 60 yards further. That is the point you choose to lose, because to admit it, exposes your failures in your cue making advances, there have been no advances.

Thats right, and I did admit it and I said why. Gold courses change every day and you don't need a special cue for getting the cue ball out of a sand trap.

Would any one walk on to Winbleton or into the Masters today with a wood racket or wood shafted clubs, but you guys keep selling us the same old she yet, year after year and nobody until right now, me, has ever stepped up and said, Bull Shit, this needs to change and change now.

No, other people have fought the ivory issue, so you can step off your pedestal at any time now. Its just not a good point.

Joe
 
classiccues said:
These lame ass arguments keep getting worse and worse. Mosconi ran 526 in 53 because that was the only ferrule he could get. He did not have a choice. If he had a red dot or a 314 then to choose, it's a damn good bet he would have used it.

Three things.. in 1953 there most certainly was an ivory substitute for ferrules as I have many catalogs that list such a product. Secondly you cannot be sure what Mosconi would have used as you are not a fortune teller. Third, if the materials are so much better, and the 314 and the Meucci so far advanced, who is even close to breaking the record?

I have video tapes of this, would you like a copy, it would make any animal lover puke in horror.

You have video tapes of everything.. from matches played in 1939 to this that and the other thing. I would bet you have video of the Loch Ness Monster to if it was the subject of a thread.

My 925 and 693 Persimmon head drivers with my 60's shafts might drive the ball 270. Metal head drives and Graphite shafts now drive the ball 60 yards further. That is the point you choose to lose, because to admit it, exposes your failures in your cue making advances, there have been no advances.

Thats right, and I did admit it and I said why. Gold courses change every day and you don't need a special cue for getting the cue ball out of a sand trap.

Would any one walk on to Winbleton or into the Masters today with a wood racket or wood shafted clubs, but you guys keep selling us the same old she yet, year after year and nobody until right now, me, has ever stepped up and said, Bull Shit, this needs to change and change now.

No, other people have fought the ivory issue, so you can step off your pedestal at any time now. Its just not a good point.

Joe


Joe, the players today dont make high runs like Mosconi did back then for two reasons, they no longer play his game, straight pool is now a dead dying out game. 2nd, and I have said this many times, the players today are not as good as they were back then. This has nothing to do with the cues being played with.

Mosconi came out in the 30's and was sent out on the road with Greenleaf to be schooled and tourtored by Brunswick. Willie being a 19 yr old did what Ralph said. Ralph was a product of the teens so it's a good bet he used an ivory ferrule and Willie copied what Ralph was using. In the 30's, they all used Ivory ferrules because that was what there was, nothing else, all the top players used them because that was the technology of the day. Willies 30's rambo was the same cue he was using in 53 so why would he have changed his ferrule, once he had adjusted to it. When Willie went out with Ralph on the road they used an Ivory cue ball to play with. Ralph used not a pool cue ball but the larger and more heavy billiard cue ball. Two reasons, bigger, heavier, it went into the stack with more power and spread. Two, when they faced a challenger, they had gotten used to using the larger cue ball, that threw off the local yokal and insured he never beat one of the stars on tour. By the logic you are using, perhaps then we should begin using Ivory cue balls once more and throw away all of our phenolic balls????

Within a year there would not be an elephant alive on earth. :D

Yes I have tapes of Nessie, and ogo pogo and others as well. I can do you a 2 hr dub of them for only 20 bucks. Why do you have a problem with me having tapes of greats playing in the 30's, I have them in the 20's, some even in the teens on film. Examples of who I have on film are Maurice Daly, Hoppes teacher, Walter Lindgrum, W.C. Fields, Frank Taberski all in the teens and very early 20's. Do I detect jealousy. My film library is the 3rd largest in the country and a source of much of my reference material and knowledge. My book library would rank in the top 10 as well with books on pool going back to 1827. No brag, just fact. Why do you have a problem with that, do not true experts have this stuff to back them up, if they did not, then they would not be experts would they?

Yes I will get down off of my pedestal, I've had my say on the subject which is this just to recap in case you missed any thing. If your customer buys your most expensive cue and pays a fortune for it, you reward him by putting on the worst ferrule you can find, Ivory and charge him a hundred bucks for it when a 50 cent one would be better. Being an intelligent guy, I just cannot understand this one.

Every time you sell a Ivory ferrule you also place an order for someone to go out and kill a defensless animal for his ivory. Therefore you are a merchant of death. When all sales stop of ivory products, the slaughter of animals for their ivory stops because there is no market then and no reason to kill the animal. That is my position sir.

Please note the only people who are arguing with me on this thread are cue makers making a nice profit selling ivory ferrules. There is a message in that for the player reading all of this. My Ivory ferrules are now retired and hanging on the walls where they belong right next to my retired ivory cue balls and my 945 persimon head driver. I truly love these things, they are beautiful, I played them in their time. Their time has passed.
 
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save the elephants

classiccues said:
Larry,
Ok the whole thread you have been saying how cheap ivory really is, and that Blud and his associates overcharge for it and now here you are saying how expensive it is and the human life toll it supposedly took. So which is it? Do you even know?

You the other day: People push and sell Ivory ferrules because they have the Ivory for almost no cost and they sell the ferrule for about $100.

Larry save the fast double talking for the trick shot shows please...

Joe


Joe if you hang around this board long enough you begin to copy others, you know, speak with forked tongue and talk out of side of mouth. It's catching I guess. Hang around ducks long enough, you will soon walk like a duck, quack like a duck, crap like a duck. F like a duck.

Joe, you tell me. What do you charge for a Elephant ivory ferrule and what is your cost for the material to make it out of. What is the weight of that material used, you said you paid $100 a pound for it, so lets be fair on the cost, OK> They tell me what is your percentage of profit and sales mark up.

Please also list the name, address and phone number of the company you are buying the elephant ivory from.

Now tell me what a fiber ferrule costs you and what you sell one of them for also. Thanks Joe, have a nice day....

May God bless and peace be with you. May the wind be always on your back and all 9 balls fall. VENI VIDI VICI, OMNIA VINCIT AMOR. Latin for “I came, I saw, I conquered, love conquerors all. Yes I really did do it all and you can believe it, or not. If you don’t believe it, C’est La Vie. A prophet is not recognized in his own land. Rack em sausage, Go play fast and loose. In time, it’s all dust in the wind anyway. :D
 
Perhaps the seller of an ivory ferrule should submit the ferrule for testing to determine if it is actually elephant ivory and if it is pre ban or poached in illegally. Would that not solve the problem and clean this up? How many of the cue mfgrs here selling ivory are reporting their sales of it as required by US LAW, does any of you want to weigh in on that? If I buy your ferrule, do you not have the need to prove to me you are not selling me new poached ivory. Do you know?

Tracking The Illegal Ivory Trade: Genetic Test Of Ivory Source Could Help Thwart Elephant Poachers
Despite the international ban on selling African elephant ivory, poaching is still widespread. Law enforcers may soon have a new tool for cracking down on elephant poachers: a genetic analysis of ivory can help show which part of Africa it came from.

What's Related
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> more related stories

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Related section: Plants & Animals


"[This method] enables determination of where stronger antipoaching efforts are needed and provides the basis for monitoring the extent of the trade," say Kenine Comstock and Elaine Ostrander of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle, Washington, and Samuel Wasser of the University of Washington in Seattle in the December issue of Conservation Biology.

African elephants dropped from 1.3 million to 600,000 during the 1980s, and international trade in their ivory was banned in 1989 by CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species). But poaching still continues and last year the Singapore government seized 6.5 tons of ivory, the largest seizure in the history of the ivory trade. "The flow of illegal ivory appears to have markedly increased in the past year," says Wasser. One of the problems is that poachers can be hard to spot, especially in the forests of Central Africa.

To help track the source of illegal ivory, Comstock and her colleagues extended a genetic test they had developed that can distinguish blood and tissue samples of elephants from different parts of Africa. The test can distinguish forest elephants from savanna elephants, and can even distinguish elephants from different part of the savanna (such as north-central savanna and eastern-southern savanna). Depending on where the elephants came from, the test is 80- 95% accurate.

The researchers adapted their genetic test to ivory, using African elephant tusks that were at least 10-20 years old. Even though tusks are teeth, they still contain some DNA and the researchers found that a small amount of ivory (120 mg, or a cubic centimeter) was enough for the test.

Being able to track the origin of illicit African elephant ivory could help law enforcers pinpoint where poaching is the heaviest, which in turn could both increase ivory seizure rates and deter poachers. In addition, several southern African countries want to relax the ivory ban because they have stores of ivory and lots of elephants. If CITES agrees, being able to track the source of ivory could show if relaxing the ban in southern Africa leads to an increase in elephant poaching in other parts of the continent.
 
fast larry said:
Perhaps the seller of an ivory ferrule should submit the ferrule for testing to determine if it is actually elephant ivory and if it is pre ban or poached in illegally. Would that not solve the problem and clean this up? How many of the cue mfgrs here selling ivory are reporting their sales of it as required by US LAW, does any of you want to weigh in on that? If I buy your ferrule, do you not have the need to prove to me you are not selling me new poached ivory. Do you know?

*********************************************************
HSUS Investigation: Illegal Ivory Trade in Our Own Backyard

HSUS
An eight-month HSUS investigation has uncovered a thriving market for illegally traded elephant ivory in an unexpected place: the United States, a nation that prides itself on the protection of endangered species and vigilance in enforcing the ban on international ivory trade.
A confusing jumble of U.S. laws has allowed ivory markets to thrive in various areas: in San Francisco, in New York, on the Internet, even at craft shows in Virginia. These markets may seem innocuous to the people who still have the need to buy ivory, but they are deadly, no matter how indirectly, to the elephants who actually supply the raw material for these popular trinkets, knickknacks and pieces of jewelry.

History has proven that markets drive the illegal trade in ivory, and the illegal trade in ivory drives the poaching of elephants, including those species protected by the Endangered Species Act. Simply put, the poaching of elephants for the ivory trade continues primarily because domestic markets for ivory still flourish.

The Ivory Ban

It's no secret that elephants are facing extinction because humans value ivory. In 1989, the international trade in ivory from African elephants was banned by the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), the treaty that governs much of the international trade in plants and animals. International trade in Asian elephant ivory had already been banned in 1975. Before the 1989 ban, CITES had tried to regulate and control the ivory trade. It couldn't. By 1989, it was estimated that 90% of ivory in the so-called legal trade was from poached elephants. It was clear that a legal ivory trade was a death sentence to elephants. Individual nations passed laws to implement that ban.

The Legal Trade

In the United States, African and Asian elephants are protected by the Endangered Species Act and the Asian and African Elephant Conservation Acts. But each year the U.S. government allows the legal import of thousands of elephant ivory objects, mostly in the form of carvings, but also as jewelry, unworked pieces, piano keys, hunting trophies, and individual tusks. Legally imported ivory was valued at an average of $164.8 million per year between 1997–2001.

Why does the ivory trade flourish in the United States? One reason is that U.S. ivory trade laws are confusing and riddled with loopholes. You may import elephant ivory classified as "antique" (more than 100 years in age) if you can produce documentation proving the ivory's age.

You may import elephant ivory legally acquired before February 4, 1977. You may sell domestically any African elephant ivory legally acquired and imported before June 1989. You may import ivory from an African elephant in the form of a hunting trophy, but (as of 1990) you are not allowed then to sell the ivory. Dealers who sell ivory domestically do not have to register, nor must they report sales. Even the Office of Law Enforcement of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS), the agency charged with intercepting illegally imported ivory, agrees that the law regarding hunting trophies—hundreds of which are imported each year—is unclear

A Deadly Trade: Five South African Nations Bid to Sell Ivory
Kenya Wildlife Service
Confirming the worst fears of many animal protectionists, greed has won out over good judgment in the southern African nations of Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, Zambia, and Zimbabwe. These nations recently made it clear to the international community that they value the money from the ivory trade more than they value the survival of already dwindling populations of elephants.
The the five nations have submitted proposals to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), asking to reduce international protections given to elephants within their borders and to trade internationally in stockpiled ivory. If the proposals are approved at the CITES meeting in November in Chile, elephant poaching could increase.

The five nations are requesting permission to sell off their stockpiled ivory. They want to export a total of 87 metric tons of ivory at first, representing about 11,000 dead elephants. In addition, they want to export an additional 13 metric tons annually, equaling an additional 1,500 dead elephants each year. Moreover, they want to be able to export an unlimited number of tourist souvenirs each year.

Confusing Consumers and Encouraging Poachers

Experts see no good coming from approving these proposals. "If the proposals are approved, it will make the an already bad situation worse by confusing consumers as to the legality of ivory and by feeding the demand for ivory," says Dr. Teresa Telecky, director of The HSUS's Wildlife Trade Program. "As we've already seen, an increased demand for ivory will, in turn, spur an increase in elephant poaching in African and Asian countries that are ill-equipped to fend off poachers."

Catastrophe

Any legal international trade in ivory could result in the kind of catastrophe seen before the 1989 ivory ban. Prior to 1989, all African elephant populations were listed on CITES Appendix II, which allowed a regulated trade. The ivory trade regulation scheme failed. At that time, over 90% of ivory in trade was from poached elephants. "If we've come to understand one thing, it's that international trade in ivory cannot be controlled, and that allowing any international trade, even on a one-time basis, has disastrous results for elephants," says Dr. Telecky.

To ban the trade in ivory, the Parties to CITES placed all elephants—African and Asian—on Appendix I. In 1997, CITES agreed to move the elephant populations of Botswana, Namibia, and Zimbabwe back to Appendix II and to allow a one-time export of their stockpiles to Japan, which took place in 1999. Inspired by this turn of events, South Africa fought (and won) to have its elephants downlisted at the 2000 CITES meeting. But opposition from the majority of African countries put the lid on any further ivory trade.

As soon as the first downlisting was allowed, both poaching and illegal trade in ivory surged, though neither has yet reached pre-ban levels. Between January 1, 2000, and May 21, 2002, more than 5.9 tonnes of ivory, 2,542 tusks, and 14,648 pieces of ivory have been seized worldwide—representing more than 2,000 dead elephants. During the same period, a minimum of 965 African elephants and 39 Asian elephants have been poached and their ivory tusks removed. Furthermore, unconfirmed reports indicate that as many 200 elephants were killed in the Central African Republic in 2001.

It isn't only the elephant populations with decreased CITES protection that are targeted by poachers. Kenya's and India's elephants are listed in Appendix I, but they face threats from poaching whenever restrictions on the sale of ivory are eased. "Poachers in many countries increase activity whenever CITES ivory trade proposals are announced in order to stockpile ivory in anticipation that the international ivory trade will soon resume," Dr. Telecky says.

This means that nations that shortsightedly choose to make money off the corpses of their elephants jeopardize the success of those nations that choose to profit from live elephants. The money at stake for those nations in the latter category is considerable: In 1989, Kenya's elephants were worth an estimated $25 million in annual tourism revenue. Kenya and India, which have kept their elephants on Appendix I, report high elephant poaching levels in recent years. They have submitted a joint proposal for the CITES meeting that would return all African elephant populations to Appendix I.

A Recent Investigation

Ivory markets are flourishing. A recent investigation of South and Southeast Asian ivory markets, by researchers Esmond Martin and Dan Stiles for Save the Elephants, found more than 105,000 ivory items for sale in 521 retail shops in the 17 towns and cities in eight countries surveyed. Tourists and business travelers—including those from Europe, the United States, and Asia—are the main customers. Over 85% of the items on sale were jewelry, which is relatively cheap and easy to smuggle. Ivory products sold in Asian markets are made from the ivory of both Asian and African elephants.

What You Can Do

The proposals will be debated and voted on at the 12th meeting of CITES in Santiago, Chile from November 3–5, 2002. Until the final vote, it is possible to convince Botswana, Namibia South Africa, Zambia, and Zimbabwe to withdraw their proposals.
 
Write to the President and Ambassador of these nations via their embassies. Ask them to withdraw their CITES proposal to sell ivory. Ask them not to sell out their elephants for the profits to be gained from ivory. Say that as a tourist, you will not visit countries that sell ivory tusks.

Contact Information

Botswana

President Festus Mogae and Ambassador King Kgosi Seepapitso IV
Embassy of Botswana
1531-3 New Hampshire Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20036
202-244-4990
Fax: 202-244-4164

Namibia

President Sam Shafishuna Nujoma and Ambassador Leonard Nangolo Iipumbi
Embassy of Namibia
1605 New Hampshire Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20009
202-986-0540
Fax: 202-986-0443

South Africa

President Thabo Mbeki and Ambassador Sheila Violet Makate Sisulu
Embassy of South Africa
3051 Massachusetts Ave NW
Washington, D.C. 20008
202-232-4400
Fax: 202-265-1607
E-mail: safrica@southafrica.net

Zambia

President Levy Mwanamwasa and Ambassador Atan Shansonga
Embassy of the Republic of Zambia
2419 Massachusetts Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20008
202-265-9717
Fax: 202-332-0826
E-mail: info@zambiainfo.org

Zimbabwe

President Robert G. Mugabe and Ambassador Dr. Simbi V. Mubako
Embassy of Zimbabwe
1608 New Hampshire Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20009
202-332-7100
Fax: 202-483-9326
E-mail: zimemb@erols.com
 
Ok, let me be karnak and answer the question before you ask the question. I can read your mind and anticipate your next move. You talkin to me, you talkin to me? I want to save the Elephants, you got a problem with that or what????? :rolleyes:
 
fast larry said:
Ok, let me be karnak and answer the question before you ask the question. I can read your mind and anticipate your next move. You talkin to me, you talkin to me? I want to save the Elephants, you got a problem with that or what????? :rolleyes:
I'm pretty sure if they offered you big money to do an exhibition to China, you'd turn it down.
Or in Hong Kong and China. Bears, tigers and elephants are slaughtered for trade down there.
Wait! Don't you IMPORT Chinese made tables and cues now Larry?
Pls. tell me there is no hypocrisy here.
 
Joseph Cues said:
I'm pretty sure if they offered you big money to do an exhibition to China, you'd turn it down.
Or in Hong Kong and China. Bears, tigers and elephants are slaughtered for trade down there.
Wait! Don't you IMPORT Chinese made tables and cues now Larry?
Pls. tell me there is no hypocrisy here.


Yes, I just did a tour of the far east, 30,000 miles. Yes I was in Hong Kong. Yes I do exhibitions in China and yes they pay me big yuans and Rupiats there. I have spent a month touring China from one end to the other twice now. A month is a long time to be away from a fork. I did a 5 day tour in that region for 35 million rupiats. My pal Mike Massey did a week tour there for 10 grand us. What do you think we are doing over there, running around to get a tan?

I am in and out of Hong Kong a lot and have played the Forbidden Palace in Bejing. Their money goes into my bank just as fast as yours does. I am promoting and the usa manager of a major tournament in Shaghai this November. The top 16 Artistic players on earth will go there to play for 40 grand, all expenses paid in and out. I have the sanction of the WPA for the event, it's my idea and baby, it's called the Big Kahuna contest. I have a lot happening in China, so what. I have stuff going on in Paris also, what's the point. They are killing and eating swamp rats there and steaming them in beer. What am I susposed to do, boycott France and throw out all my congnac and merlots. How many cows do you think we shoot in the head here every day? She yet dies man, she yet happens.

I don't turn money down to do exhibitions any where for any one. I would do a show in hell if I got 10 grand in advance and a ac room. Have passport, will travel dude. I did not see too many elephants running around down town Hong Kong and no I do not see your point. Some People there are poor in rural areas, they will poach. They do that to steal the tusk they know you will buy. If you refuse to buy or use that material, the market dries up and the killing stops. What does my doing shows in China have to do with you using and selling Ivory?

Or are we sort of desperate to change this subject here. Let's throw some mud on old fl now, that's the next page in the play book is it not. We called him crazy, that did not work, now let make up a new one.

Yes I sell tables made in China, a foreign country, so does Brunswick, theirs comes from a 3rd world country also, so what? I sell cues made in America by only Americans. Every part of that cue is from America. It is called a Meucci, made in the South where I live. Yes I do buy cues from China, name me one distributor in this country that does not do the same thing. Where do you think cue tec is from, NYC?

I show up in public and perform with an American cue in my hand, either a Meucci from Mississippi or a Schuler from Chicago. Does not Allison and Earl and Johnny show up in public playing with a Chinese cue. Where does Buddy's cue come from?

Look on the back of my vest, you will see a big red white and blue American flag, I leave no doubt where I am from. I wore that vest world wide and in places Americans had been bombed and killed at recently. I wore it in the largest Muslim country on earth. Look at my visor, on the front is a picture of our country, the USA in gold. I am a walking USA BILLBOARD. I just got in a little signed note from George thanking me for that, being a loyal american.

WHAT A LAME ASS SLAM THAT ONE WAS, YOU GUYS ARE SLIPPING, YOU USED TO BE BETTER AT THIS. You might go back to calling me a fraud and a liar, we have not heard that one in the last 15 minutes. Try I can't run 3 friggin balls, or I have 3 balls. How about I made up all of my records, faked my 20 prime time TV appearances and paid ESPN under the table to let me on the air. Be creative guys, somebody might be F**kin dumb enough to buy into these. There are some really dumb bells running around out there, hell, they even pay $100 for a ferrule that deflects awful, it's the old saying, one is born every minute.

Can we refocus here, here it is, it is real simple, Save the Elephants.
Don't sell Ivory, don't buy ivory, then elephants do not get killed. Can we stay on the subject and debate that please. :D

Joe, re read name of thread, Ivory ferrules, does not say throw mud on fl, everyone gang up. Ivory Joe, it comes from Elephants mostly. Should we or should we not use it. Should the player ask for it and buy it or boycott it, that sir is the topic here, now stay on the topic Joe, focus dude....
 
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Joe, the players today dont make high runs like Mosconi did back then for two reasons, they no longer play his game, straight pool is now a dead dying out game. 2nd, and I have said this many times, the players today are not as good as they were back then. This has nothing to do with the cues being played with.

Interesting.. since players of today are normally better conditioned.. with the exception of a few maybe...

Willies 30's rambo was the same cue he was using in 53 so why would he have changed his ferrule, once he had adjusted to it.

Using your above logic and your past arguement on "better technology" why should someone who is used to ivory ferrules, change? If they have adjusted to it, whats the difference?

Yes I have tapes of Nessie, and ogo pogo and others as well. I can do you a 2 hr dub of them for only 20 bucks. Why do you have a problem with me having tapes of greats playing in the 30's, I have them in the 20's, some even in the teens on film. Examples of who I have on film are Maurice Daly, Hoppes teacher, Walter Lindgrum, W.C. Fields, Frank Taberski all in the teens and very early 20's. Do I detect jealousy.

What you detect is sarcasm, what I detect is a load or horse.. umm as you call it shey it...

Why do you have a problem with that, do not true experts have this stuff to back them up, if they did not, then they would not be experts would they?

I don't think I am talking to one now.. what difference does having reference material if you don't comprehend it anyways?

If your customer buys your most expensive cue and pays a fortune for it, you reward him by putting on the worst ferrule you can find, Ivory and charge him a hundred bucks for it when a 50 cent one would be better. Being an intelligent guy, I just cannot understand this one.

But maybe for this customer a 50 cent ferrule is not better? I cannot understand how you being the self proclaimed master of the universe cannot see that. Besides why put a 50 cent ferrule, on a 3,000 dollar cue. Do you put 10 dollar retreads on a Porsche?

Every time you sell a Ivory ferrule you also place an order for someone to go out and kill a defensless animal for his ivory. Therefore you are a merchant of death.

So you own no leather products? I think you are a hypocritical fool for even mentioning this again.

When all sales stop of ivory products, the slaughter of animals for their ivory stops because there is no market then and no reason to kill the animal. That is my position sir.

Thats nice.. and when PETA sponsors a pro tournament I am sure you will be master of ceremony's.

Please note the only people who are arguing with me on this thread are cue makers making a nice profit selling ivory ferrules.

Thats not true, you have players and dealers argueing with you. So please if you want to make points, please be accurate.

My Ivory ferrules are now retired and hanging on the walls where they belong right next to my retired ivory cue balls and my 945 persimon head driver. I truly love these things, they are beautiful, I played them in their time. Their time has passed.

Well thats nice.. and how old are you? Should you not also be retired and hanging out on the wall? Maybe its not just the products whose time has passed.

Joe
 
Joe if you hang around this board long enough you begin to copy others, you know, speak with forked tongue and talk out of side of mouth. It's catching I guess. Hang around ducks long enough, you will soon walk like a duck, quack like a duck, crap like a duck. F like a duck.

Larry, make no mistake, I have been reading your arguements for quite a while and it seems you are the king of the about face, double talk, go which way the wind is blowing argument.

Joe, you tell me. What do you charge for a Elephant ivory ferrule and what is your cost for the material to make it out of. What is the weight of that material used, you said you paid $100 a pound for it, so lets be fair on the cost, OK They tell me what is your percentage of profit and sales mark up.

Larry, I do not sell ivory ferrules. I sell cues that may or may not have ivory ferrules on them. But as a player I like the hit and feel of ivory and have no problem using it. Granted, I think the ivory is legitimate.

Please also list the name, address and phone number of the company you are buying the elephant ivory from.

No can do, not relevent.

Now tell me what a fiber ferrule costs you and what you sell one of them for also. Thanks Joe, have a nice day....

See above.

Joe
 
fast larry said:
Can we refocus here, here it is, it is real simple, Save the Elephants.
Don't sell Ivory, don't buy ivory, then elephants do not get killed. Can we stay on the subject and debate that please. :D

Joe, re read name of thread, Ivory ferrules, does not say throw mud on fl, everyone gang up. Ivory Joe, it comes from Elephants mostly. Should we or should we not use it. Should the player ask for it and buy it or boycott it, that sir is the topic here, now stay on the topic Joe, focus dude....

Actually, from what I read, the original topic was about how ivory was as a ferrule material, not about moral issues concerning the use of ivory. The latter was your topic. You changed the original topic, so I don't know why you think other people don't have the same right to change topics just as you do.
 
classiccues said:
Joe if you hang around this board long enough you begin to copy others, you know, speak with forked tongue and talk out of side of mouth. It's catching I guess. Hang around ducks long enough, you will soon walk like a duck, quack like a duck, crap like a duck. F like a duck.

Larry, make no mistake, I have been reading your arguements for quite a while and it seems you are the king of the about face, double talk, go which way the wind is blowing argument.

Joe, you tell me. What do you charge for a Elephant ivory ferrule and what is your cost for the material to make it out of. What is the weight of that material used, you said you paid $100 a pound for it, so lets be fair on the cost, OK They tell me what is your percentage of profit and sales mark up.

Larry, I do not sell ivory ferrules. I sell cues that may or may not have ivory ferrules on them. But as a player I like the hit and feel of ivory and have no problem using it. Granted, I think the ivory is legitimate.

Please also list the name, address and phone number of the company you are buying the elephant ivory from.

No can do, not relevent.

Now tell me what a fiber ferrule costs you and what you sell one of them for also. Thanks Joe, have a nice day....

See above.

Joe



Joe, was I supposed to miss the fact that you dodged and failed to answer every question I asked. You Don't know, you think, not revelent, you sound like vito during a Congressional mafia investigation, how about taking the 5th joe, that saves time.
 
Yes, I just did a tour of the far east, 30,000 miles. Yes I was in Hong Kong. Yes I do exhibitions in China and yes they pay me big yuans and Rupiats there. I have spent a month touring China from one end to the other twice now. A month is a long time to be away from a fork. I did a 5 day tour in that region for 35 million rupiats. My pal Mike Massey did a week tour there for 10 grand us. What do you think we are doing over there, running around to get a tan?

Let me simplify this for you.. the fact is the elephant ivory illegal trade is greatest in the far east. If you gave one iota of crap about the elephants you would decline to do anything over there for political reasons. Being an advocate behind the keyboard is easier then having to apply it in person.

How about I made up all of my records, faked my 20 prime time TV appearances and paid ESPN under the table to let me on the air.

Well Larry, sitting in the stands doesn't count or I would have quite a few TV appearances also. As far as your records, I have yet to see anyone here jump up and say how outstanding you are and they have peronally seen any of it happen.

Can we refocus here, here it is, it is real simple, Save the Elephants.
Don't sell Ivory, don't buy ivory, then elephants do not get killed. Can we stay on the subject and debate that please. :D


Joe, re read name of thread, Ivory ferrules, does not say throw mud on fl, everyone gang up. Ivory Joe, it comes from Elephants mostly. Should we or should we not use it. Should the player ask for it and buy it or boycott it, that sir is the topic here, now stay on the topic Joe, focus dude

We know where ivory comes from and we are not debating the elephant issue, we are debating playability and the application of ivory in a pool cue. So you try and stay on topic..

Joe
 
Jimmy M. said:
Actually, from what I read, the original topic was about how ivory was as a ferrule material, not about moral issues concerning the use of ivory. The latter was your topic. You changed the original topic, so I don't know why you think other people don't have the same right to change topics just as you do.

As long as the moral issues of using ivory are debated, what about the use of exotic woods? Cocabolo, for instance, is beautiful but slowly becoming extinct. Is it morally responsible to demand such materials in cues?
 
FYI, the people in both Hong Kong and the cities of China use forks, and knives and spoons. If you were forced to use something else (ie, chopsticks), that is YOUR fault !!!

fast larry said:
Yes, I just did a tour of the far east, 30,000 miles. Yes I was in Hong Kong. Yes I do exhibitions in China and yes they pay me big yuans and Rupiats there. I have spent a month touring China from one end to the other twice now. A month is a long time to be away from a fork.
 
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