Ivory vs. stainless steel

[Purdman]

Hey there fella...give credit where credit is due!! Don has a lot more experience than with just "both kinds of JOINTS"!!

Watch it DM, I resemble that remark! Now were smoking!!!!!! I guess you missed the part about the MAGNETIC DECODER RING, ya dumb #$@%!!!!!!
Stop talking about my herb buddy, someone might get the wrong idea about me.
Purdman

 

[RSB-Refugee]

JIMBO, you are on. I don't care what tip, ferrule, who made it, what shaft, weight , or anything else you do. I can tell you the differance between SS and Ivory 100 out of 100 tries. Blindfolded ta boot. And you all wondered what that magnetic decoder ring was made for!!!!!
Purdman

Did you know, a magnet won't stick to stainless.

Tracy

 

[monski]

Hey there fella...give credit where credit is due!! Don has a lot more experience than with just "both kinds of JOINTS"!!

---------------
Yes. And I'm sure he does. Its just that the thread is focused on these 2 joints so I kept my opinion confined to the two; but not to mean that he doesn't have any experience with other type joints. Huuuuh, LLLLLLLLeeet's get ready to ruummbbbbllllllllllllllleeeeee!!!

 

[drivermaker]

Watch it DM, I resemble that remark! Now were smoking!!!!!! I guess you missed the part about the MAGNETIC DECODER RING, ya dumb #$@%!!!!!!
Stop talking about my herb buddy, someone might get the wrong idea about me.
Purdman

They know better around here...everybody knows that you're only into
herb(al) tea these days for your health and daily constitution. (Man...now ain't that a load of constitution)

 

[Purdman]

Did you know, a magnet won't stick to stainless.

Tracy

OH FREEKIN WELL, I guess I will just go back to my van down by the river and burn a splif and listen to some more motivational tapes. I will be back in the morning for some more reflecting.
Purd

 

[Jon]

IMHO, the only way to really do an Ivory vs. SS vs. Phenolic test would be this:

1. Have a joint collar (CNC) machined out of all three materials to the EXACT same dimensions. Pick a thread (such as 5/8-18) and thread the tenon on the butt for a snug fit WITHOUT glue.
2. Use the same butt and shaft.
3. Have people test it, switch out the joint. Have them test it, switch out the joint. Have them test it, and have them write down what they think it is after every test run.

That way it is the same tip/ferrule/shaft/butt for each joint.

IMHO, it's the only way to have a TRUE test.

 

[merylane]

I'm with Purdy on this one.
A piloted SS joint compared to ivory is night and day.
Tape it, you'd still feel all that weight in the middle.
You can definitely feel the heavy piloted ss joint.
I hate them.
Now, staghorn joint is another matter. Hagans and Zlyrs.

what the f&%# all what weight..... where.... i dont know what that has to do with anything.

its pretty obvious you and purdy werent at mcchesneys booth.... how about the s.w. with the steel joint nobody guessed that one, probably bias eyes.

 

[JoeyInCali]

what the f&%# all what weight..... where.... i dont know what that has to do with anything.

its pretty obvious you and purdy werent at mcchesneys booth.... how about the s.w. with the steel joint nobody guessed that one, probably bias eyes.

Why are you cussing whatever your name is?
You mean a piloted stainless steel joint that weighs 45 grams/ 1.5 oz cannot be felt before you even hit a ball?
Yeah, Purdy and I weren't there. You were, I hope you had a lovely time.

 

[bruin70]

-----------------
Theoretically therefore, only a handful of people should be able to tell the difference (if ever) since the experience required is first hand --- with him/her having so many cues with same characteristics except for the joint. I assume of course that most of us play with different cues which is different from the next guy's cue (ferrule, tip, balance etc). Plus the guy should be able to make a decent shot -- maybe a B or A player. If a player has hit with only a few cues in his life and does not play that often, it should be hard to tell.

I mean a person who has mostly hit an ivory jointed cue and a person who does it with an SS joint will have differences in their cues as well (ferrule, tip etc). So how can he definitively say that, "Its the joint."?

you underestimate even yourself. anyone with any good experience with pool can do it. if not, you merely have to be taught to be aware,,,,and you have no idea how many unaware people walk this earth because,well,,,they don't have to be. i am almost shocked that there are people posting here who think they can't,,,,,dumbfounded, in fact.

the cue should be very basic,,,if you want to conduct a CONTROLLED test. a full butt maple,,,,no wrap, no points, no nothing....a plain stick with nothing save a change in joint. no blindfold needed as jimbo suggests, because this cue would TOTALLY lack any personality. sight is required for cueing, otherwise the whole day is spent miscueing and nothing is ever accomplished properly.

as for experience,,,every tester should know what to look for. how can you test if you don't? that is why i would need to run through all the cues first. actually not all...just give me two of each to feel, then the test can commence. an SS/ivory by black will feel different from an SS/ivory by scruggs, so what is accomplished by testing an ss black versus an ivory scruggs. you test by localizing, not by throwing in other variables.

 

[bruin70]

I'm with Purdy on this one.
A piloted SS joint compared to ivory is night and day.
Tape it, you'd still feel all that weight in the middle.
You can definitely feel the heavy piloted ss joint.
I hate them.
Now, staghorn joint is another matter. Hagans and Zlyrs.

this debate is over if monski and jimbo just try it. mask their cues and hit. they'll say,,,"oh,,,shit. it's easy to tell"

 

[bruin70]

IMHO, the only way to really do an Ivory vs. SS vs. Phenolic test would be this:

1. Have a joint collar (CNC) machined out of all three materials to the EXACT same dimensions. Pick a thread (such as 5/8-18) and thread the tenon on the butt for a snug fit WITHOUT glue.
2. Use the same butt and shaft.
3. Have people test it, switch out the joint. Have them test it, switch out the joint. Have them test it, and have them write down what they think it is after every test run.

That way it is the same tip/ferrule/shaft/butt for each joint.

IMHO, it's the only way to have a TRUE test.

phenolic???where did that come from?

 

[bruin70]

wh
its pretty obvious you and purdy werent at mcchesneys booth.....

??????????? are you claining that mcchecney test to be definitive?????!!!! geeeez

that "test" proved nothing.

 

[Jon]

phenolic???where did that come from?

I just thought i would throw in curve ball to make it a little tougher

 

[JoeyInCali]

??????????? are you claining that mcchecney test to be definitive?????!!!! geeeez

that "test" proved nothing.

You mean merry fu&#in' lane got cantankerous for nothing?

 

[mad-mat]

I got curious and made that test.
Luckily I have 3 Novas that are all weighted the same (and the VH/NovaHybrid but that one doesn't count)

Went to the hall and asked a guy that doesn't now about my Novas if he would make a test and make somne shots blindfolded and tell what he feels. (I did not give him any info about Ivory vs. SS joint bla,bla).

I thought this would be a good way to test, as I always can use the same shaft on the different butts, so there is no differnet feel by different tips or tapers, etc..

I first gave him a SS jointed one, his answer: "hm, nice, little bit softer than mine" (he plays a late 80ies Joss)
then again a SS one but different Butt: "why do you give me the same cue ??" (aha, LOL)
then: the Ivory jointed one(piloted massive joint, not sleeved): his answer: "softer, still very direct, more feeling - what is that plastic joint??" (errg, i didn't want to hear that !!)
back to SS jointed one: " same cue as before"

then we solved the riddle for him and showed him the cues he was trying and explained the test.
Being curious what would happen next we blinfolded him again and told him now about to decide whether he was shooting with an ivory or SS joint.

my VerlHorn-Nova with SS joint was considered an Ivory joint without any doubts
Prather with phenolic was considered Ivory joint
Arthur cue with ivory joint he thought to be a steel joint
My Verl-Horn Nova again but with another shaft, this time SSJOINT - !!
his own joss. SS Joint (not very difficult)
another joss he couldn't decide

So finally I think already the knowledge about what this test is about does alter the results a lot

 

[dooziexx]

I would like to learn as much as I can about joints for cues like what type of hit do you get with an ivory joint vs. an SS joint or should I stick one to stay with the feel I'm used to if you have info and don't mind sharing i'm listening.

I think this thread has taken a slight detour...I too live in the Chicagoland area, Aurora actually. If you like to meet, I can bring some cues of different joints so that you can test them out. Ivory, wood to wood and ss joint. The difference is all in the feedback/feel being passed back..Wood to wood passed back the most feedback while ss absorbs it all at the joint.. Ivory is in the middle, will absorb some and passes the rest.. Thats the easiest most common way to describe it.. They also sound different too especially ivory..

 

[JimBo]

.

the cue should be very basic,,,if you want to conduct a CONTROLLED test. a full butt maple,,,,no wrap, no points, no nothing....a plain stick with nothing save a change in joint. no blindfold needed as jimbo suggests, because this cue would TOTALLY lack any personality. sight is required for cueing, otherwise the whole day is spent miscueing and nothing is ever accomplished properly.

.

Jimbo suggests the blind fold because JimBo's point was that he would supply 10 cues, he will cover the joints and he will let you or anyone hit balls and say Ivory or SS, he would then collect his money when you didn't get 10 out of 10 correct. The cues will have different set ups as far as tip/ferrule and shaft taper goes. My point from the first post was that other things factor into a cues hit a lot more then the joint. My point was never that we can make 2 cues that were exact in every detail other then the joints. You seem to stand behind that fact that anyone can tell an Ivory joint and I am telling you that you are not correct, it's not about how much you pay attention. Of course this is just my opinion, but it's one I am willing to bet on and since you live in NYC maybe we can prove it or disprove it. I will meet you in the middle with 10 cues and a blindfold and $500, you get all 10 right and I leave you with the cash, if I win I'll buy lunch and head home with my $500. I love when JimBo talks about JimBo in the third person;-)

JimBo

 

[JimBo]

??????????? are you claining that mcchecney test to be definitive?????!!!! geeeez

that "test" proved nothing.

I'm saying the test proved that it's not easy to tell or even guess what the joint was made of. I think a test proves more then us talking shit here without any proof, so his study proves more then you or I babbling. I'd also agree that just because people were good pool players wouldn't mean they had a vast knowledge of cues, but we need to poll pool players because if we did it with people who have never hit with a cue we'd get a worse result. Point isn't if there is a difference between the two, my point is there are other things you can do to cues to change the feel and hit that would fool people and I have certain cues that I know for a fact people would get wrong. Now if you throw in other joints then you have no chance in hell.

Jim

 

[bruin70]

Jimbo suggests the blind fold because JimBo's point was that he would supply 10 cues, he will cover the joints ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

JimBo

bruin70 said originally that he realized jimbo was coming from a different point of view,,,that of changing ferrule/tip, and not of a simple ss/ivory test,,,,which is why bruin said he edited his original post, because bruin agreed that tip/ferrule DOES disguise the feel of the hit. jimbo was not paying attention as jimbo should. however jimbo later opened the door to current arguement.

if jimbo provides 10 cues with different shaft taqpers/ferrules/tips/cuemaker/etc etc,,,then test is rather pointless and unscientific, as variations in all those factors makes the test muddy. bruin et al are saying we can tell the diff twixt ss and ivory, jimbo is saying "oh yeah, what if i put baby booties over tip/ferrule, can you tell THEN???", blindfold not necessary if cues are generic maple/no butt/no wrap jusu sinple piece of wood. tester must cue properly.

jimbo not providing test,,,jimbo wants to trick poor bruin with carnival shenanigans,

bruin70(first time ever refering to self in 3rd person)

 

[JimBo]

bruin70 said originally that he realized jimbo was coming from a different point of view,,,that of changing ferrule/tip, and not of a simple ss/ivory test,,,,which is why bruin said he edited his original post, because bruin agreed that tip/ferrule DOES disguise the feel of the hit. jimbo was not paying attention as jimbo should. however jimbo later opened the door to current arguement.

From the beginning JimBo was saying that the Joint DOESN'T play as big a roll in the Hit and feel of the cue as other components (tip/ferrule/shaft). JimBo also said there are some cues that you would not be able to tell what type of joint they had.

if jimbo provides 10 cues with different shaft taqpers/ferrules/tips/cuemaker/etc etc,,,then test is rather pointless and unscientific, as variations in all those factors makes the test muddy.

Except for the fact that Bruin said it's easy to tell if you just paid attention. Ex. Sound,feel weight... I think he went as far as to say it would be easy (maybe someone else LOL)

bruin et al are saying we can tell the diff twixt ss and ivory, jimbo is saying "oh yeah, what if i put baby booties over tip/ferrule, can you tell THEN???",

Not at all, I have no need to switch or cover any tips with anything or change them, just some cues that I may or may not already have experience with. The point is either
1) It's easy to tell the difference
or
2) it's hard to tell what joint is on the cue.

The point was never if we can tell the difference if we took the same cue and changed the joint. That just isn't a viable argument.

blindfold not necessary if cues are generic maple/no butt/no wrap jusu sinple piece of wood. tester must cue properly.

Again this was never the point and this just isn't something that is going to happen any time soon, either the joint is a major factor and easy to distinguish or as I contend it's just not that big of a factor in the overall feel of a cue. Until you come up with a universal replaceable joint there is no way to have 2 cues exactly the same with different joints. Butt wood/ shaft wood, even tips are never 100% exact.
jimbo not providing test,,,jimbo wants to trick poor bruin with carnival shenanigans,

bruin70(first time ever refering to self in 3rd person)

Why try to muddy the argument? I never said I was trying to trick you and I never implied I would try to make trick improvements to any cues, all I said was that if you took 10 cues with different joints you would not be able to get all 10 right just by hitting with them.

Jim