Jakub Jokub- what do we think?

iusedtoberich said:
I actually think the WPA should re-write the rules to explicitly state: "If the winning ball is pocketed and it is obvious there is no impending scratch, the players are permitted to remove balls from the pockets to expedite the racking process for the next game."

Players have done that since the beginning of pool. To penalize them now for common practice is plain stupid.
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In the 1988 rules of the PBA (US pro tour) Rule 4.9 said:

Players may touch object balls only to assist the referee in his duties. If a player intentionally touches any other object ball, for any other purpose, while a game is in progress, whether that object ball is in play or not, he has fouled. (This rule does not apply to the usual collisions between the balls.)​

For an edition or two prior to 1992, the BCA Rule Book had both BCA and PBTA (new name) rules for 9 ball. In the 1992 BCA Rule Book, the BCA gave up it's own set of nine ball rules, and had only the PBTA rules, with Rule 4.9 identical to the above. The PBTA rules were stand-alone and not an integrated part of the BCA rules for such things as definitions. This was around the time the WPA was forming.

In the 1993 edition of the BCA Rule Book, the rules of 9 ball were pruned to remove the general rules so they only had rules directly about 9-ball. This was done to make one, uniform set of rules for pool and have a set of "World Standardized Rules." The idea of a player being allowed to touch out-of-play object balls was removed. I don't know whether it was by accident or intentional.

In the 2006/2008 WPA major rules rewrite, I did not notice that the rule was gone or I would have tried to reinsert it. I think it has to go back in, perhaps in a slightly different form. I'm a little prejudiced in this, since I wrote the PBA rules.
 
Bob Jewett said:
In the 1988 rules of the PBA (US pro tour) Rule 4.9 said:

Players may touch object balls only to assist the referee in his duties. If a player intentionally touches any other object ball, for any other purpose, while a game is in progress, whether that object ball is in play or not, he has fouled. (This rule does not apply to the usual collisions between the balls.)​

For an edition or two prior to 1992, the BCA Rule Book had both BCA and PBTA (new name) rules for 9 ball. In the 1992 BCA Rule Book, the BCA gave up it's own set of nine ball rules, and had only the PBTA rules, with Rule 4.9 identical to the above. The PBTA rules were stand-alone and not an integrated part of the BCA rules for such things as definitions. This was around the time the WPA was forming.

In the 1993 edition of the BCA Rule Book, the rules of 9 ball were pruned to remove the general rules so they only had rules directly about 9-ball. This was done to make one, uniform set of rules for pool and have a set of "World Standardized Rules." The idea of a player being allowed to touch out-of-play object balls was removed. I don't know whether it was by accident or intentional.

In the 2006/2008 WPA major rules rewrite, I did not notice that the rule was gone or I would have tried to reinsert it. I think it has to go back in, perhaps in a slightly different form. I'm a little prejudiced in this, since I wrote the PBA rules.
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I don’t understand which side of it you’re on? Keeping the nit rules or explicitly making them non-fouls.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I don’t understand which side of it you’re on? Keeping the nit rules or explicitly making them non-fouls.
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I read Bob’s comment as indicating it wouldn’t be a foul to grab the out of play balls to assist the referee for racking (or presumably to move balls from one pocket to clear a full pocket before shooting a ball into it).

Although given the way these Euro refs have applied the rules I think it has to be even more explicit. I can only think of one time I’ve seen a player touch an out of play ball other than those situations. Orcollo at the Derby once had BIH and took an out of play ball and placed it on the table as a visual marker to see where he wanted to get the CB to next. He was clearly going to remove it before shooting. It was called a foul. Dennis complained to like 20 players afterwards and every one of them seemed to tell him it was a foul (he wasn’t happy).
 
if a ref is there there is no reason to touch any balls without permission of some kind.

and if he isn't, then a standard should be defined precisely.
 
maha said:
if a ref is there there is no reason to touch any balls without permission of some kind.

and if he isn't, then a standard should be defined precisely.
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Well, if there is a shot clock, and the ref is far, and the pocket is full, and the player doesn't want to break his stride...

One problem is that when the pro players are playing with only an area ref, they often do what we all do in private matches -- start grabbing balls as soon as the final shot outcome is clear. Somehow, most of them don't have a problem with that. It's hard to break that kind of habit. There are different "rules" depending on the officiating situation, and there should only be one way to play the game.

One solution is to have an end-of-game declaration (or indication), after which it's OK to grab balls. "Game to Mr. Gorst." "Game." "Nice rack." (opponent steps forward to help gather balls)
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, if there is a shot clock, and the ref is far, and the pocket is full, and the player doesn't want to break his stride...

One problem is that when the pro players are playing with only an area ref, they often do what we all do in private matches -- start grabbing balls as soon as the final shot outcome is clear. Somehow, most of them don't have a problem with that. It's hard to break that kind of habit. There are different "rules" depending on the officiating situation, and there should only be one way to play the game.

One solution is to have an end-of-game declaration (or indication), after which it's OK to grab balls. "Game to Mr. Gorst." "Game." "Nice rack." (opponent steps forward to help gather balls)
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I just don’t understand what “problem” the Euro tour refs think they are solving with their rule. The way the WNT does it (not a foul unless the balls you remove touch the moving CB) seems perfectly fine, in line with common current and historical practice.
 
My nations league system has some LEGENDARY assholes in it. To be fair, this will make you aware of not making any sort of mistake when it comes to rule violations. I have a feeling Koniar would fit right in. The stories I could tell of nittiness in National championships, not to mention crazy behavior would make this incident pale in comparison.
 
never hurts to ask your opponent what he agrees to at the least. he still may call fouls on you to win. thats what you deal with when you dont follow exactly the rules in a tournament.
you take your chances and results.

if no ref is there it is on you to follow the rules and him to enforce them.

and both of you may have different standards on following those rules.
 
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