Jeanette Lee and the crowd

Getting to the crux

I do not know Jeanette Lee personally, so I wouldn't know how genuine her behavior is in front of the cameras. Moreover, I'm not here to comment on individual players per se. My concern is another, and I think it resonates with the original poster of this thread. Commercial culture in the United States is almost exclusively associated with loud colors, noise, and apeish behavior. The original poster of this thread, I imagine, is used to another notion of entertainment as most Europeans are. To the British it apparently isn't 'boring' to silently watch snooker players for their skills, and for that alone. Jumping up and down is not a requirement... American commercial culture seems to believe that there is no audience for entertainment of a... well, more sophisticated kind (my apologies for sounding a little hoity-toity). And because of that belief, promoters wind up making it a reality.

What bothers me is that, in an attempt to attract attention to pool, many believe the game has to be trivialized. Granted, I'm not a professional and I don't suffer the consequences of underfunding in pool directly. But as a lover of the game, I also feel it's in my interest that the best players get fully compensated for their efforts. How much poorer would my life be without them! Nevertheless, pool is an activity that requires an obscene level of concentration, and it just might be that using football stadium tactics to make it 'exciting' is incongruous with the nature of the game.

I simply fear that the trend to trivialize, clean up, or whatever else is attempted by promoters will corrupt the game (if it hasn't already to a certain extent). And if that is the case, pool will move in the direction of wrestling. Good money, but nothing genuine about it.
 
lewdo26 said:
What bothers me is that, in an attempt to attract attention to pool, many believe the game has to be trivialized. Granted, I'm not a professional and I don't suffer the consequences of underfunding in pool directly. But as a lover of the game, I also feel it's in my interest that the best players get fully compensated for their efforts. How much poorer would my life be without them! Nevertheless, pool is an activity that requires an obscene level of concentration, and it just might be that using football stadium tactics to make it 'exciting' is incongruous with the nature of the game.
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That is a larger point that I completely agree with. I lived in Taiwan for most of my life and pool is treated as a serious sport, much like snooker is in Britain. The Taiwanese players are the most anti-theatrical bunch you'll ever see, but the fan base is positively huge.

It comes down to how you want the sport to be perceived. Right now the pros are trying to sell to the masses (non-players), and that will never EVER grow the sport in any significant way. They look at Lee as eye-candy, a hot chick dressed in bdsm body suits/5 inch heals who can shoot pool, a novelty of "that girl can kick MY ass in pool! LOL..." It cheapens the game, imo. So does pointless cheering and clapping from the crowd.

-Roger
 
Wally in Cincy said:
Jeanette is all right. Every pool player, male or female, better kiss her the next time they see her because she is the best thing pool has going for it right now.
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Hehehe.....tried that once :D ....was an absolute no-go :( ....Jeanettes a great player with a strange but very funny sense of humor.She's also tough as nails so I'd advise against trying to take that liberty. :eek:
 
Hold the phone lewdo, my friend. Have you ever seen Peter Ebdon when he won his World Crown in snooker Hows about hoping about on one leg screaming to his lungs "YES!!!!! YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!" or an Alex Higgins with his crying Jag. Or the name calling Ronnie O did in the press about Stephen Hendry. Then Hendry drilled him in the following match. Im not criticizing this. I think human emotions is great for sport. To separate cultures without knowing one is a common mistake. All British tv is not Masterpiece Theater. They got their Monty Pythons and Benny Hills too. And dont get me started on the Taiwanese. (I am Asian). They love their heroes too.
All in all this thread is about Jeannette and I can say she is a fine competitor and she can play. Plus she is a good human being. She's not up there scratching her ass with a bottle of beer in her hand woofing at players or staring down audience members whining about the lights, the equipment, the rolls, quitting in the middle of her match, yelling at the rack person, etc. But she is her own individual self.
 
the audience is encouraged to applaud ALL the time. it's pathetic, i know. it's for tv because american television cannot stand dead silence.

jeanette's a ham, but she is where she is because of who she is. can't fault that.
 
yobagua said:
Hold the phone lewdo, my friend. Have you ever seen Peter Ebdon when he won his World Crown in snooker Hows about hoping about on one leg screaming to his lungs "YES!!!!! YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!" or an Alex Higgins with his crying Jag. Or the name calling Ronnie O did in the press about Stephen Hendry. Then Hendry drilled him in the following match. Im not criticizing this. I think human emotions is great for sport. To separate cultures without knowing one is a common mistake. All British tv is not Masterpiece Theater. They got their Monty Pythons and Benny Hills too. And dont get me started on the Taiwanese. (I am Asian). They love their heroes too.
All in all this thread is about Jeannette and I can say she is a fine competitor and she can play. Plus she is a good human being. She's not up there scratching her ass with a bottle of beer in her hand woofing at players or staring down audience members whining about the lights, the equipment, the rolls, quitting in the middle of her match, yelling at the rack person, etc. But she is her own individual self.
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Yoba, how are you? You are right in bringing attention to the dangers of romanticizing another culture. I am familiar with Alex Higgins stories, neither would I think that slapstick commercial culture is inexistent in Asia. But let me clear up my point: I have *no problem* with players who let their personality and passions show during a match, if it is spontaneous. My problem is with the notion that a pool player is *obligated* to show his emotions in order to secure sponsorship, and compete in tournaments with a worthy purse in prizefund and media coverage. The primary factor in the game of pool should be the game itself, that's all I'm saying. Larry Nevel might be deadpan, poker-faced most of the time, and there is beauty in that kind of restraint as well. But most important are his skills. To the extent that a larger audience is introduced to the game, I'd hope that it be primarily for their interest in the game itself, rather than showsmanship or affectation or the cult of media personality.
 
buddha162 said:
I disagree most emphatically, but that's just mo.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is nothing natural about that woman, her persona is as artificial as it gets. Keith and Earl and perhaps even Vivian show true emotion during competition, and I have far less problems with that than Lee's media strut around the table.

If you think my comments are personal, well, they are! Lee is a good player but she annoys me in an excruciating way.

-Roger
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:p Are you sure your personal emotions aren't counting $$$$$$$ She makes TOP $$$$$ . I was in Kilgore Texas at One Pocket"s Pool Hall talkin to owner she told me Fee for her to open new room 8,000 then 3,000 a show[or 3hr.} "Wow",Thats better than a brain-Dr. You could use one!!! I know her, met her when she first started out,she was in C.Js In Dallas we had a drink talked,cut up had fun, she walked off left her cue by me, came back in few and I schooled her about trusting strangers!! She said, about you B.J. I know your "OK" So I know she is "OK" too!! ;) More POWER TO HER!!!! Maby if you had more CLASS you Might like the BETTER CLASS!!,
 
B.J.the bandit said:
:p Are you sure your personal emotions aren't counting $$$$$$$ She makes TOP $$$$$ . I was in Kilgore Texas at One Pocket"s Pool Hall talkin to owner she told me Fee for her to open new room 8,000 then 3,000 a show[or 3hr.} "Wow",Thats better than a brain-Dr. You could use one!!! I know her, met her when she first started out,she was in C.Js In Dallas we had a drink talked,cut up had fun, she walked off left her cue by me, came back in few and I schooled her about trusting strangers!! She said, about you B.J. I know your "OK" So I know she is "OK" too!! ;) More POWER TO HER!!!! Maby if you had more CLASS you Might like the BETTER CLASS!!,
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I read the above post twice, and have no idea what you're trying to say.

English, please.

-Roger
 
yobagua said:
And dont get me started on the Taiwanese. (I am Asian). They love their heroes too.
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Tell me, do the players in Taiwan yell out "Yeah Baby Yeah! That's what I'm talking about!" after every rack won? Do they say anything at all during the match? I don't think so.

Pool in Taiwan is a stoically serious endeavor. There is no theatrical bullshit, no fake applause or forced emotional outbursts, just a ton of knowledgable fans appreciating a sport played at the highest level. They don't need a "black widow" hot-chick-with-attitude to push the game.

But please, correct me if I'm wrong. You might be Asian but if you don't see the starkest of contrasts between Taiwan/U.S. in televised pool you have no idea what you're talking about.

-Roger
 
buddha162 said:
.....contrasts between Taiwan/U.S. in televised pool.....
-Roger
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not going into the fact that you don't like lee.....been there.......LOL......just that you're comparing apples to oranges......two different cultures here.......what appeals to the tawainese is totally different than what appeals to the americans. in tawain they might not need someone in 5 inch heels to make the sport popular........but in america the people do. i'm not saying thats right or wrong.......its just a fact.....no sport in america that is popular is monotone and silent.

i will say that i do disagree with cheering after EVERY shot. i hate that about the wpba t.v. matches. if you haven't seen the us open, watch that. i was there, they tried to get the crowd to cheer, but it just wasn't happening. we cheered ONLY when there was a good shot. i think its stupid to cheer when someone makes a shot thats 6 inches from the pocket, or when someone plays a safe, but misses the safe, the crowd still cheers........lol

thanks
 
Is it that Taiwanese pool is repressed?

The only ambassador for Taiwanese pool that I have come in contact with is Jennifer Chen who is less than demure at the pool table. She can/does throw out anathemas and gestures with the best in a bar crowd or WPBA tournament.

Were these charateristics subdued while she was in Taiwan? Is her emancipation here in the US acceptable to those pool players in Taiwan? She is still a role model and a star in Taiwan for her pool and modeling.

But I digress. Ah, yes, this thread is about J. L..

Contrast this to Jeanette Lee, who's civil banter is entertaining (to most) and is a part of her profitable package.

"Money talks and B.S. walks" is still true.
 
"But please, correct me if I'm wrong. You might be Asian but if you don't see the starkest of contrasts between Taiwan/U.S. in televised pool you have no idea what you're talking about. "

OK let me correct you. I dont need anyone defining my culture for me. I see a stark contrast between all cultures. But I dont put one ahead of the other. I am saying there is a general human emotion in all peoples. Every culture has their jerks! Have you seen the Taiwan senate in action. The physical attacks? We dont act like that in our American senate. But so what? I understand one might have to be reverential to a custom that one is an outsider to-a fan gwei lo. But for those of us who live in it we see it in all its depth.
Perhaps you dont remember when during the World Championship several of years back Fong Pang Chao, that great Taiwan star, started taking phone calls on his cell phone during a big match with Oliver Ortmann. Also talking with his friends while Ortmann was at the table. This really upset Ortmann but he did not say anything but tried to keep his cool. Jennifer Chen the other star from Taiwan has thrown her little tantrums too.
Lets get back to Jeannette. If its a personal thing fine you dont like her. But In my opinion she is a wonderful role model for others. And she has grown as a person. Its not about who doesnt know what they are talking about.
 
You need to get ahold of yourself as well as a proper sense of perspective. I'm not promoting Chinese culture over an American one, I'm talking about the approach towards pool there and here, and pool on tv in particular. As a fan of the GAME more than any person/personality, I prefer the way televised pool is presented in Taiwan over anything ESPN has ever put on; both the audience response AND the way the players conduct themselves at the table. You can disagree, but please don't put words in my mouth.

Since you thrice emphasized your Chinese heritage, let me just say that I'm Chinese as well, and lived in Taiwan for 11 years (age 7-18, '87-'99, with family still there and anual visits). I witnessed the transformation of pool in Taiwan from a seedy activity dominated by truants/petty thugs/middle school dropouts to a medium which glorified a tiny island nation on the world stage. I'm curious, are you from Taiwan? Have you ever lived there? How familiar are you with the pool culture? Any first-hand knowledge?

The Chao incident remains controversial. And btw, Ortman DID object, rather emphatically to the ref. I am not familiar with Jennifer Chen's outbursts, but I can tell you she never busted a nut on Taiwanese tv, and I'm glad for it. Not necessarily because I prefer women (or men) to be demure on tv, but because I think that kind of emotional display cheapens the sport I love, and forced emotional displays (which I sincerely believe Jeanette Lee is guilty of) is just 100 times worse.

And let me add here that I couldn't give a rat's ass if pool grows in this country, not if growth means a further retarding of the game. Furthermore, I couldn't give a rat's left nut if everyone and their grandma have heard of the Black Widow; tell me how that benefits pool in this country! I'll say it one more time, Lee has promoted nothing more than herself. She is not pulling pro pool up by the strength of her charm, if you believe that you're delusional.

Rant finished.

-Roger
 
They do the same thing in Men's pool with Smith leading the cheering.

That's TV - they have been doing that since the 40's.

Surely you have all seen those big cards that say "applause" that are held up to the audiance.

At least I don't think they are using the canned "applause track" in pool.

Jake
 
vapoolplayer said:
not going into the fact that you don't like lee.....been there.......LOL......just that you're comparing apples to oranges......two different cultures here.......what appeals to the tawainese is totally different than what appeals to the americans. in tawain they might not need someone in 5 inch heels to make the sport popular........but in america the people do. i'm not saying thats right or wrong.......its just a fact.....no sport in america that is popular is monotone and silent.
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Hey vapp,

I agree that cultural differences play a significant role in the contrast of behavior in players/audience members, but I think the crux of the matter still lies in how pool is perceived in the respective countries.

To me, WPBA matches involve a lot of mindless excitement, and reflects a shallow appreciation for the game (this may or may not be the case, but it seems that way). Whereas the Taiwanese/Filipino audience stay silent unless some extraordinary feat is accomplished on the pool table, yet their level of involvement is far more meaningful. They understand and respect the sport, it's so much more than casual viewing to 99% of these guys. To get applause you better do something spectacular!

Like I said, pool is a national endeavor in Taiwan; it is taught as part of the sports curriculum in highschool, and the top players are treated like serious sports celebs. Even foreign players who travel to compete on the island receives celebrity treatment, something most of them are unaccustomed to in their home country. Ralph Soquet once said of Taiwan, "over here, I'm somebody; at home I'm completely unimportant." I'm sure Earl/Johnny/Rodney feel the same way...

-Roger
 
LAMas said:
Is it that Taiwanese pool is repressed?
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Well, you can make the argument that Chinese cultural norms are repressive in general, that they frown upon overt displays of emotion, etc., and that the repression extends to pool and its participants. And/or, those individual pool players are spawn of a repressive culture, and naturally they remain repressed while competing on live television. That would be a fair point to make, imo.

But the main reason, again imo, is that pool in Taiwan need no gimmicks to grow or maintain interest; the game itself is more than enough to animate the appetite of the fanbase. A Black Widow or Texas Tornado will not necessarily have any discernable impact, except as a topic of casual conversation. At the end of the day, what matters most is the game being played at the highest level.

Your narrative of Jennifer Chen's repression/liberation/transformation cycle is one way to look at it. Another would be, Jennifer learned from Jeanette or Vivian or a number of other players on tour that emotional outbursts are rewarded and worthwhile, and she conformed to what she thought was the norm on the WPBA. I could imagine her being compared unfavorably to more extroverted players when she first started here, and learned to become more animated and "unboring" as a result.

-Roger
 
First you imply that "I dont know what I am talking about". Then you use the word "delusional". I dont want and need to get into a flame war with a fellow poster and a fellow Chinese. I apologize if I have offended you in any way. But I think that part of your problem stems from a personal bug that you have with J Lee. I dont want to get into that. Thats not my problem. However let me say that I like and approve of Jeannette. Thats probably what you and I differ in. Other than that I have a lot of respect for the Taiwanese pool scene and their players. As i do with America.
 
As far as the reality of professional pool in Taiwan, I don't think you know what you're talking about. This was not implied. You can change my mind if you care to answer some of my questions, which were intended to clarify/qualify you as a source of accurate information ("are you from Taiwan? Have you ever lived there? How familiar are you with the pool culture? Any first-hand knowledge?"); you can choose to respond or not, but I pretty much know the answers anyway.

I make what I felt was a valid point of contrast between American and Taiwanese pool, the attitudes toward the game and the perception of the audience and the interaction amongst fans/players. You seem to disagree, and repeatedly use your being Chinese as some sort of validation for your points, as in I'm Chinese, hence I am an authority on the subject of pool in Taiwan. I again disagree, and that is where this seems to end.

I recognize my issue with Jeanette as entirely personal. The bottom line is she annoys me. We can certainly agree to disagree on the persona of a celebrity!

You haven't offended me, there is no need to apologize and I don't consider this a "flame war" per se, but I respect your decision to back away.

-Roger
 
Thanks Roger. Since you know the answers I dont think I need to answer. I dont feel I need to reveal details about my private life to you. Perhaps if we were to meet one on one I could have a more personal discussion about it. I just wanted to make the point that every culture has its positive and negative points. Im glad you know what I am talking about when I mention the Fong Pang Chao incident. Also if you have the time ask Nick Varner what happened to him when he played Efren in a tv match. Every time Nick got up to shoot. People would flick their lighters and light up a cig. Now I have never been to the Phillipines but this is what he has said. There is rude behavior in every country. I dont think Jeannette has a monopoly on it.

I never said that because I am Chinese I know what the Taiwan scene is. I just dont think they are better than the Americans but different.
 
I don't know maybe I'm just crass and crude, but I completely fail to see the problem here. What, exactly, does a celebratory hand pump hurt? How does that harm the sport of pool? Do you consider it poor sportsmanship? Why? How did this discussion suddenly get wrapped around the axle and bogged down in the differences between Eastern and Western culture? I've spent a LOT of time in Asia..I lived in Mainland China, I've spent time in Thailand, the P.I., Vietnam. Yes, there are cultural differences....but what I found out is that people are people are people. None of that has anything to do with this discussion that I can see.

Jeanette Lee has certainly done more for the public image of professional pool in the U.S. than any other player I can think of in recent years. I know people who are not pool players, have no idea who Efren Reyes or Johnny Archer are, but know who Jeanette Lee is and will watch a match on TV if she's playing. The ones I know certainly can't be the only ones. That benefits pool even if only in the respect that more people are watching because of her.

I just fail to see how Jeanette Lee's "victory pump" cheapens the sport in any way, or how she dresses her child has anything to do with anything. She is certainly not the only Pro Pool Player that has some little victory celebration. Does any display of any emotion cheapen the sport?
 
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