John Schmidt - How high will he go?

[Tin Man]

I love it when people tell me “If I practiced as much as you’ I’d be as good as you are”.

Yes, maybe they would.

If the question is whether Mosconi or Crane or some of the old timers could’ve posted bigger runs if they’d been trying, well, maybe so.

Nevertheless, the witnessed record is 526. John has a right to go for it in the way he feels best. Maybe some people admire players that are so great they can set records without trying. John isn’t that great, so he’s going to have to work hard and try.

Some players like Earl or Shaw because he makes the game look easy, and don’t like players that grind because they make the game look tougher. But titles go to those that win, not the style of players.

Bottom line, every fan has a right to pick their favorite player, but every player has the right to play their own game. I’ve always admired hard working grinders so I admire John for the same approach that turns others off. Each to their own. There is plenty of room to respect players of all styles.

 

[sjm]

I love it when people tell me “If I practiced as much as you’ I’d be as good as you are”.

Yes, maybe they would.

If the question is whether Mosconi or Crane or some of the old timers could’ve posted bigger runs if they’d been trying, well, maybe so.

Nevertheless, the witnessed record is 526. John has a right to go for it in the way he feels best. Maybe some people admire players that are so great they can set records without trying. John isn’t that great, so he’s going to have to work hard and try.

Some players like Earl or Shaw because he makes the game look easy, and don’t like players that grind because they make the game look tougher. But titles go to those that win, not the style of players.

Bottom line, every fan has a right to pick their favorite player, but every player has the right to play their own game. I’ve always admired hard working grinders so I admire John for the same approach that turns others off. Each to their own. There is plenty of room to respect players of all styles.

Excellent post. If John sets the record, and I believe he will, it's a wonderful achievement.

 

[jay helfert]

I love it when people tell me “If I practiced as much as you’ I’d be as good as you are”.

Yes, maybe they would.

If the question is whether Mosconi or Crane or some of the old timers could’ve posted bigger runs if they’d been trying, well, maybe so.

Nevertheless, the witnessed record is 526. John has a right to go for it in the way he feels best. Maybe some people admire players that are so great they can set records without trying. John isn’t that great, so he’s going to have to work hard and try.

Some players like Earl or Shaw because he makes the game look easy, and don’t like players that grind because they make the game look tougher. But titles go to those that win, not the style of players.

Bottom line, every fan has a right to pick their favorite player, but every player has the right to play their own game. I’ve always admired hard working grinders so I admire John for the same approach that turns others off. Each to their own. There is plenty of room to respect players of all styles.

I'm with you there D Man. I think John is an excellent player. He did win the U.S. Open and several other major tournaments in his career. And it will take a player of his caliber to threaten Mosconi's record. More power to him if he does it. As far as I'm concerned all these "young guns" can try to do the same thing and I bet they won't find it so easy to do. I'd like to lock all the Kaci's and Filler's in a room for thirty days and see if any of them can produce a 527. They might, and then again they might not!

By the way, the top players would often play long challenge matches back in the day. Lassiter might play Taylor a match to 2,000 points over a period of several days. Typically they would stop each day after someone reaches 200, then 400, 600, etc. But the run would continue the following day and it was an opportunity for a player to achieve a high run. Even in these matches a run over 200 was unusual. Mosconi dominated matches like this for years, with several of his "world championships" coming in just such a match against his number one challenger. The best player in the modern era in matches like this was Lou Butera, who could break off high runs better than anyone else. No one wanted to play him a long challenge match, and he had an open invitation to all the best players to play a race to 2,000 Straight Pool. Even the mighty Miz was not barred!

P.S. I loved it when someone told me, "You got lucky!" I learned the best response was to agree with them. That way they came back for more.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I love it when people tell me “If I practiced as much as you’ I’d be as good as you are”.

Yes, maybe they would.

blah, blah, blah

None of my friends would be near as good as me if they practiced and I wouldn't be near as good as SVB if I practiced as much as he does.

I think practice brings consistency and consistency wins tournaments (anyone can win 1 game) but when you have it, you have it and if you don't, you don't. There is a natural order of things.

 

[KRJ]

well, nobody plays straight pool anymore. so who knows. but at the games that are played, 9-ball etc, i definitely think the players of today are better than those of yesteryears

I was not talking about "all" players, I'm specifically speaking of Mosconi. Straight pool, 9 ball, whatever, where are the dozen of more world championships from the guys that would eat Mosconi alive? heck, JS is a great player and I hope he breaks the record, but he's sitting in a room, day and night to do it. Mosconi ran 100s like it was water. Who is going to eat him alive today? Nobody, that's who.

He was the Jordan of pool back in the day. Until someone can dominate like him, we can use generalities about "new" players are better than old players.... nobody uses that in other sports. Some old guys are better than new, and some new were better than old. But, in no universe is all of one better than all of another.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I was not talking about "all" players, I'm specifically speaking of Mosconi. Straight pool, 9 ball, whatever, where are the dozen of more world championships from the guys that would eat Mosconi alive? heck, JS is a great player and I hope he breaks the record, but he's sitting in a room, day and night to do it. Mosconi ran 100s like it was water. Who is going to eat him alive today? Nobody, that's who.

He was the Jordan of pool back in the day. Until someone can dominate like him, we can use generalities about "new" players are better than old players.... nobody uses that in other sports. Some old guys are better than new, and some new were better than old. But, in no universe is all of one better than all of another.

He was the Jordan, because there were hardly any Larry Bird's in his era.

The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.

 

[midnightpulp]

He was the Jordan, because there were hardly any Larry Bird's in his era.

The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.

Many players of Mosconi's era were still strong players during the Miz and Sigel era, who Sigel and Miz didn't run over. Sigel was prime Earl Strickland level and a better all around player. The closest Mosconi contemporary we have still alive is Ray Martin, and Ray Martin was never on Mosconi's level. Corey Deuel was one of the best players in the world in 2006, and a 70 year old Ray Martin beat him in an IPT match. Ray finished 8th in that event, higher than players like Thorsten Hohmann and Niels (still two of the world's best) Eaten alive? :lol

As I said, what gives the impression today's players are a tier above is the better equipment, from Simonis to Magic Racks to break cues to now carbon fiber cues. And yes, mechanics have improved. But the latter is something a player from that era could adjust if needed. It's not like if you transported a 25 year old Mosconi to today, the evolution of his game would just stop.

What makes the cue sports different is that players can still play past their prime physical peaks, so we can more easily compare across generations. If 70 year old Ray Martin is beating Corey Deuel and finishing above two of the greatest of the modern era (he also beat Oliver Ortmann in 2011 at the World 14.1), it stands to reason a prime Mosconi, a superior player to Martin, would be a top player today. No, he wouldn't be as dominant. He probably shouldn't have been as dominant back then, either. The "World Championship" was often a 1 vs. 1 challenge match or invitationals with small fields in those days. But "eaten alive" makes it sound like you think Mosconi would be shortstop speed today (e.g 650ish Fargo rate), as shortstops are the players who get "eaten alive."

 

[AtLarge]

... Corey Deuel was one of the best players in the world in 2006, and a 70 year old Ray Martin beat him in an IPT match. Ray finished 8th in that event, higher than players like Thorsten Hohmann and Niels (still two of the world's best) Eaten alive? ...

It sounds like you are referring to the IPT King of the Hill event in late 2005. Yes, Martin received more money for that event than did Hohmann and Feijen, but you need to understand why.

The format was that 30 players played in round-robin matches in groups on Day 1 of the event. 15 of the 30 progressed to Day 2, playing in group round-robin matches to eliminate 9 more. Those eliminated on Day 1 received $6,200; those eliminated on Day 2 (including Feijen and Hohmann) received $13,000.

Then, on Day 3, the 6 survivors from the original 30 were joined by a dozen Hall of Famers. In other words, the Hall of Famers, including Ray Martin, got a free pass (no matches played on the first two days) into Day 3. Twelve of those 18 were eliminated on Day 3 through more group round-robin matches. Martin and Deuel were 2 of the 12. The prize at that stage was $30,000. In other words, the Hall of Fame entrants were guaranteed $30,000 even if they never made a ball in their matches.

So if you are correct that Ray beat Corey in that event, it would have been one of the round-robin matches on Day 3. But they were eliminated at the same stage, with Corey having won a lot more matches than Ray. And to say that Martin finished "above two of the greatest of the modern era" in that event is technically true (money-wise) but not because of winning pool matches.

But you are right that Ray was still a good player at an advanced age. He was about 75 in 2011 when he won that 14.1 game to 100 points against Ortmann. He made it through the round-robin stage that year with a 5-2 record, although his other wins were not against strong players.

He's now about 82. I don't know how much he plays now, but I think he still teaches.

 

[lfigueroa]

I was not talking about "all" players, I'm specifically speaking of Mosconi. Straight pool, 9 ball, whatever, where are the dozen of more world championships from the guys that would eat Mosconi alive? heck, JS is a great player and I hope he breaks the record, but he's sitting in a room, day and night to do it. Mosconi ran 100s like it was water. Who is going to eat him alive today? Nobody, that's who.

He was the Jordan of pool back in the day. Until someone can dominate like him, we can use generalities about "new" players are better than old players.... nobody uses that in other sports. Some old guys are better than new, and some new were better than old. But, in no universe is all of one better than all of another.

Here are some interesting thoughts on all this, expressed back in a thread in 2007:

i would like to mention something.lets not be so quick to say mosconis run would be broken,because thats a hell of a run.i mentioned that if someone put up huge money and let everyone try to break it it would be in jeopardy,well maybe so but can you imagine how tough those break balls would start looking at around 525 knowing if you keep going you can retire and if you miss you have to start over.sounds like fun and a nightmare at the sametime.also something to remember running 200 is not twice as hard as running 100 its 100 times harder and more unlikely.also running 400 is not twice as hard as 200 its 100 times harder and more unlikely etc etc.breaking his run in practice would take amazing skill ,luck,fortitude,etc,but doing it for a million would really be tough .having huge money on it though is the only way it would be broke because thats the only way me and the other players would put in the 2-5 years trying it to pull it off .thats still not saying we would pull it off but we would try like hell.well thats imho.talk to you guys later john schmidt

wow this is like my 40th post lifetime,i need to start playing pool instead of talking about it.now this is just my opinion but i hear people say the players of today are and should be better than the guys from the old days.i kind of disagree ,take mosconi for instance .theres no way that the guys of today or tommorrow would play better than him ,there would just be more who play like him.efren at one hole ,50 years from now there might be 25 guys who play one hole or pool in general as good as him.but i dont see how they could play better.i mean you can only get so good at something. the way pool is going an growing in 10 or twenty years you are going to have to play like johnny archer just to survive on tour instead of dominating the tour.

I have heard the rumor about a Mike Uephemia defeating Masconi's record on the nine foot, I would say that the pockets were probably large when Mike made the run. Because of the smaller area of the 4x8 there would have to be more congestion with the rack, granted the long shot would be more difficult on the 9ft. I think under certain conditions that Willie's run on a 4x8 would be as respectable or more than that of a 9ft that has fast cloth and soft pockets. It has allway's been a goal of mine to break Mascon's record, through time and many hours of practice I have decided to make this a long-term goal. If this fellow Mike really did run 606 or whatever than I tip my hat to him, I thought the run that Thomas Engert ran was terrific. In Germany there are many great 14.1 players, I don't know if Uephemia ran all those balls but it does sound like he was capable of dabb'n it. Either way in my opinion Masconi will live on as one of the most fierce competetors ever to play the game.
Sincerely, Danny Harriman

Lou Figueroa

 

[alstl]

Many players of Mosconi's era were still strong players during the Miz and Sigel era, who Sigel and Miz didn't run over. Sigel was prime Earl Strickland level and a better all around player. The closest Mosconi contemporary we have still alive is Ray Martin, and Ray Martin was never on Mosconi's level. Corey Deuel was one of the best players in the world in 2006, and a 70 year old Ray Martin beat him in an IPT match. Ray finished 8th in that event, higher than players like Thorsten Hohmann and Niels (still two of the world's best) Eaten alive? :lol

As I said, what gives the impression today's players are a tier above is the better equipment, from Simonis to Magic Racks to break cues to now carbon fiber cues. And yes, mechanics have improved. But the latter is something a player from that era could adjust if needed. It's not like if you transported a 25 year old Mosconi to today, the evolution of his game would just stop.

What makes the cue sports different is that players can still play past their prime physical peaks, so we can more easily compare across generations. If 70 year old Ray Martin is beating Corey Deuel and finishing above two of the greatest of the modern era (he also beat Oliver Ortmann in 2011 at the World 14.1), it stands to reason a prime Mosconi, a superior player to Martin, would be a top player today. No, he wouldn't be as dominant. He probably shouldn't have been as dominant back then, either. The "World Championship" was often a 1 vs. 1 challenge match or invitationals with small fields in those days. But "eaten alive" makes it sound like you think Mosconi would be shortstop speed today (e.g 650ish Fargo rate), as shortstops are the players who get "eaten alive."

It's an endless debate with no answer. How would Babe Ruth do today?

The reverse of that debate is how would today's players do in that earlier era? I'd say most would struggle under those conditions and equipment. One clue would be you don't see any of today's tournaments played with old cloth and ancient cues with clay balls.

In Babe Ruth's final season with the Boston Braves the Braves played 70 games as part of a double header. They traveled by train. They had no air conditioning in the clubhouse. No modern surgery. Babe retired because he had trouble with a knee. Today he would get knee surgery and be back playing in a few months. Is the question how Babe Ruth would do today or how today's players would do under those conditions?

 

[jason]

"Either way in my opinion Masconi will live on as one of the most fierce competetors ever to play the game." --Danny Harriman

I believe this to be true. It is in no disrespect, but rather ultimate respect that the record is being attempted by JS and others. I think if Mosconi was alive today he would be rooting for JS or anyone else to break the record and breath a little life in to the game he loved and we love. Sure was Mosconi super competitive and probably had a little "no one can beat my record" attitude under his breath. I'm pretty sure of that from all champions of any record, but at some point in ones life, you have to let go and do what is best for the tribe. Mosconi was a class act and I think he would apprectiate the attempt(s).

 

[Poolhall60561]

Good Luck John, Maybe today is the day.

 

[lfigueroa]

It's an endless debate with no answer. How would Babe Ruth do today?

The reverse of that debate is how would today's players do in that earlier era? I'd say most would struggle under those conditions and equipment. One clue would be you don't see any of today's tournaments played with old cloth and ancient cues with clay balls.

In Babe Ruth's final season with the Boston Braves the Braves played 70 games as part of a double header. They traveled by train. They had no air conditioning in the clubhouse. No modern surgery. Babe retired because he had trouble with a knee. Today he would get knee surgery and be back playing in a few months. Is the question how Babe Ruth would do today or how today's players would do under those conditions?

lol, there's no debate.

Lou Figueroa

 

[alstl]

lol, there's no debate.

Lou Figueroa

Cool - who won?

 

[lfigueroa]

"Either way in my opinion Masconi will live on as one of the most fierce competetors ever to play the game." --Danny Harriman

I believe this to be true. It is in no disrespect, but rather ultimate respect that the record is being attempted by JS and others. I think if Mosconi was alive today he would be rooting for JS or anyone else to break the record and breath a little life in to the game he loved and we love. Sure was Mosconi super competitive and probably had a little "no one can beat my record" attitude under his breath. I'm pretty sure of that from all champions of any record, but at some point in ones life, you have to let go and do what is best for the tribe. Mosconi was a class act and I think he would apprectiate the attempt(s).

You've got this more than a little wrong.

Here's what I think would happen, based upon everything I've read about him and after seeing him play in person several times: If Mosconi were still alive and someone like JS was doing what he's doing and actually succeeded in breaking Willie's high run record, Mosconi would say, "That was a nice run." Then he'd find a table nearby and run *exactly* 100 more balls and stop cold.

Then he'd tell the guy, "Knock yourself out."

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

You've got this more than a little wrong.

Here's what I think would happen, based upon everything I've read about him and after seeing him play in person several times: If Mosconi were still alive and someone like JS was doing what he's doing and actually succeeded in breaking Willie's high run record, Mosconi would say, "That was a nice run." Then he'd find a table nearby and run *exactly* 100 more balls and stop cold.

Then he'd tell the guy, "Knock yourself out."

Lou Figueroa

I saw Mosconi play! Granted he was in his 50's by then and well retired, but he was still guaranteeing a 100 ball run in every exhibition he did! I have yet to see anyone take the balls off the table as well as he did. He was like a surgeon slicing through the rack. After the break shot he would take one long look and he had his pattern all figured out. If he had to change that pattern on even one shot he would be visibly upset with himself.

Crane and Caras had been Willie's chief rivals and were still playing very good pool later in their careers. Caras returned from a ten year absence to win the U.S. Open 14.1 at age 57. Crane was still winning matches against the best young players well into his 60's. Lassiter, Balsis and Murphy were three other great players. Mizerak may have been the closest in ability to Mosconi of all the modern players, with Sigel not far behind.

But none of the them had the gifts that Willie possessed imo. He was poetry in motion moving around that table, with the balls doing his bidding. He made it all look so easy.

 

[jason]

You've got this more than a little wrong.

Here's what I think would happen, based upon everything I've read about him and after seeing him play in person several times: If Mosconi were still alive and someone like JS was doing what he's doing and actually succeeded in breaking Willie's high run record, Mosconi would say, "That was a nice run." Then he'd find a table nearby and run *exactly* 100 more balls and stop cold.

Then he'd tell the guy, "Knock yourself out."

Lou Figueroa

Maybe I was a little unclear. I didn't mean Mosconi in his competitive prime, I was looking at it from the perspective of him as an older statesman of the game. A few are trashing "the way" JS is attempting this. Thats what I was trying to defend.

 

[jason]

After the break shot he would take one long look and he had his pattern all figured out.

Jay I feel my pattern play was a lot simpler when I was younger. It just came a lot more naturally to me back then. I feel my knowledge of the game and shots is 100X better, but at what cost? It's hard to see the world/the table from the same viewpoint we had as a youth. The Keep It Simple Stupid rule still applies. My father always stressed; fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Playing as much 14.1 like they did back in the day maybe why his patterns and fundamentals were so good. 14.1 is a true pattern game as there ever was.

 

[gxman]

Seeing how hard 300-400 is to come by, I cant see 500.

Hope JS proves me wrong.

 

[lfigueroa]

Maybe I was a little unclear. I didn't mean Mosconi in his competitive prime, I was looking at it from the perspective of him as an older statesman of the game. A few are trashing "the way" JS is attempting this. Thats what I was trying to defend.

On that topic I think Mosconi would be more than a little amused.

Personally, I think after so many failed attempts, it is either already or soon to become a thing in JS's head that reads: I can't do it. I mean, how many go's at it has he had already?

Lou Figueroa