Johnny Archer vs. Allison Fisher?

[bud green]

If they use the Sardo and the wing ball is dead, I like Allison or Karen getting 40 on the wire in a big way.

No dead break balls and a tough breaking table and I got to like Johnny...if he's playing good. Not on one of his twitchy days.

Shane would murder them right now, 9-Ball, 8-Ball, dead balls or not.

How about Earl trying to beat these ladies at this spot?

 

[FLICKit]

Comparison of Winner Breaks & Alternate Breaks
(pros and cons of 'em being used for normal competition - in general)
(as opposed to the 40 spot weighted event that some are talking about)

The ability to make something on the break and run-out:
We all agree is very powerful in Winner Breaks.
AND, it's also a very powerful ability in Alternate Break format. If you break and run every opportunity you get, then you will be guaranteed to never be losing when going to the hill. That puts alot of pressure for the opponent to have to win every one of their breaks, just so that they can be tied with you.
If they lose just one game on their break, then you will be guaranteed to win.
From 1 perspective, it's still stringing racks together on the way to victory.

Alternate break forces you to come to the table ready for top performance at game 1 and throughout the whole match. One slight let-down or bad performance can be costly. So you have to play at a high focus level from beginning to end, especially amongst the top level players.

Whereas with winner breaks, if you can break and run 100% of the time, then you don't have to be at top performance in the early games. As long as you know that your opponent will give you an opportunity to win a game at some point, then you can break and run your way out to victory. Takes away alot of the pressure.

As they say, it's a really good hustler maneuver. Oh, I can hardly play, I can hardly hold a stick and make a ball. You're beating me so badly. I'm just so off today. Let's increase the bet so I have a chance to get my money back. Then all of a sudden, 9 ball break, break n run, .... I win. Then comes the "I just got so lucky, that's the best I've ever played!" story.

 

[raybo147]

How much of the difference do you think is the break and how much do you think is all the other skills related to pool. If you discount the break, how much better than Allison does everybody think Archer is? Don't get me wrong I do not think Allison is better, but after watching the WPC where breaking power never came into it I was wondering how much of a spot she would need in a situation like that were everybody was soft breaking.

 

[FLICKit]

One big negative of alternate break, is that whoever wins the lag or the first break, often has a big advantage:
1. They get to get acclamated to the conditions of the pool table first, which can be huge (i.e. early safety battle).
2. They put the pressure on their opponent by winning their games, thus their opponent has to win their games just to tie.
3. And to top it all off, if the match gets to the hill/hill point, the lag winner or first breaker still has the advantage to win the match.

It's kind of odd too, because the significance of that first lag, can be big. But it is so disconnected from the drama of a hill/hill match. In other words, the players in such match, upon review, can say I lost that match due to the lag. I think it's pretty bad, when the outcome of the match is essentially determined basically before they even started playing.

One simple resolution is if the match becomes hill/hill then they lag for break on the final game.
This allows for the original lag winner to get the advantage (from 1. and 2. above) all the way up to the hill/hill match.
And both players have an equal opportunity to get the advantage in the key hill/hill match by earning it with a key skill!
The drama of the importance of the lag is placed on both players after they've experienced all the pressures of the match to get it to hill/hill. And then even if they win the break, they still have to come to the table ready to finish it out.


I also like the race to 2 set format. Followed by a 3rd game/set tie-breaker, if necessary. This gets the best of alot of worlds.

Whoever wins the lag in the first set, then the opponent can get the break option in the second set. Thus, you get to see them battle it out, when 1 has the initial lag advantage, and you get to see them battle it out, when the other one gets the initial lag advantage. Sometimes that can make a huge difference.

And if it each player wins their set, then comes the 3rd game/set lag, to determine who will have the advantage in the key tie breaker. Gives each player the opportunity to dig down deep and earn it.

 

[FLICKit]

How much of the difference do you think is the break and how much do you think is all the other skills related to pool.

Good question.

I think that ball making accounts for about 70-90% of the game.
So, I'd say that the break accounts for about 10% of the game.
But, if you can get an advantage on the break, that 10% becomes huge.

 

[Rubyron]

But even if you were correct...which you are not...that alternate break was designed to make pool matches more interesting...WTF is wrong with THAT?

I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. I think winner breaks matches are potentially more interesting.

I understand you think it was unfair that Feijen lost 11-0 to Gomez in the WPC. I have to agree but if the matches were for sale this would be the first one I would buy.

14.1 has become virtually extinct as a pro tour sport. Do you want the same thing to happen...or rather, continue happening to 9 Ball??

I'm not sure I understand. Do you think that "winner breaks" is killing 9 ball?

 

[Johnnyt]

X Pan is small and has a thundering break. Sarah R. is small with a hard break. There are a dozen or so on the womens tour that are small and break hard. It takes hours of practice to get it to all come together on your break. Some practice it some don't.

After Corey won the Open with the soft cut break I think a lot of players (women pros included) started practicing the softer break. Johnnyt

 

[worriedbeef]

This isn't "flak" because POSSIBLY you are correct in regards to "physical coordination." I say possibly because I am not aware of any physiological studies on that subject.

But the chances are substantial that environmental and not physical factors are the cause of any inferior coordination...if it exists.

Societal mores are changing, thank God, but for the greatest portion of the last 100 years, young girls were not only not encouraged to take up sports, they were actively dissuaded from doing so.

Clearly, physical coordination is AT LEAST as much a learned skill as it is inate.

nature vs nurture issue - yes i agree that it could very well be the nurture part as the reason for this deficiency. i wouldn't be as sure as you are that it's more likely but to be honest we won't know this for a long long time until the women's talent pool is a lot bigger and the game as a whole has moved on. at the end of the day there are so few women players who's games are anywhere near the mens so purely down to that fact we'll have to wait a long time before we can know if the women do have the innate ability to physically coordinate a break shot like the men. mind you pan xao ting springs to mind. i love the way she lifts the cue upwards to give her more time to generate speed bringing the cue through. that does require VERY good coordination. i tried it once and banged my arm off the table.

But I admit that the CAUSE of any deficiency in coordination was not your point...exactly...but rather that the deficiency exists. Again, you could be right.

BUT I cannot agree with that portion of your post where you assert that women have any defict to men on the issue of hitting the head ball squarely. Respectfully, that is the kind of argument that is convenient to make since it cannot be disproven (as far as I know).

all i am saying here is hitting the head ball square is kind of the key idea of a power break most of the time. i mean, a lot of people can probably hit the cue ball just as hard as archer, bustamante, etc, but not in the direction of the head ball as accurately and consistently as the pro's. no good hitting it at 100mph if the cue ball skims of the edge of the head ball.

However, as I only recently learned the squareness of the head ball hit has a FAR lower impact on total force applied to the rack than I thought was the case.

I don't recall exactly, but it might have been Bob Jewett who corrected my misconception on that point. So, at least to that extent, your argument is undermined.

i'm open to be proved wrong/educated, but i can't possibly comprehend this to be true. if you play two shots at exactly the same speed, one hitting an object ball full ball and the other quarter ball, the full on contact ball will roll further because more energy has been transfered to the ball. surely? EDIT: actually thinking about it again i see you are not saying it doesn't make ANY difference, but rather it just makes less of one that you'd think. hmmm

Regards,
Jim

________________________

 

[wincardona]

Experience,knowledge,power

With great respect, I agree with very little that you stated.

"They all hold up very well under pressure ,playing players that are reasonably close to their speed."

There are only 3-4 WPBA players who are anywhere near Allison and Karen's speed.

"They negotiate situations well playing one another,but when faced with the best male players in the world,under the right conditions they will be in uncharted waters."

No way. Pool is not a contact sport. The players "opponents" are the balls laying on the table.

I TALKED to the best women who played in the IPT and asked them if they were intimidated by playing against men and they ALL said, in effect.."Not at all. We have nothing to lose because we aren't supposed to win."

So, while I respect your opinion that the women would be under some special kind of pressure playing men, my opinion is that you have it backwards. All the men...in their right minds at least, would know that in an alternate break format in a race to 9 CAN LOSE to Allison or Karen in any given match and they would be embarrassed as hell...just like I am sure Feijen was when Alli beat him at the IPT...when she probably hadn't played 100 racks of 8 Ball IN HER LIFE prior to that match.

I do agree with you that since few of the women have EVER played 10 Ball, they would be at an additional disadvantage to men who play it a lot but tell me this. Give me a list of the top male pros in the U.S. who you think are the favorites to beat Alli or Karen in snooker?

Regards,
Jim

There are four crucial areas in the game of 10 ball that the woman players are far behind the upper echelon male players. They are breaking,kicking,banking,and safety play.If the rules and conditions were designed to force players to utilize there skills in the four crucial areas as stated,then it is inevitable that the woman players will lose their confidence and break down,as would other male players as well.
Incidentally I think short rack games like 9 ball and 10 ball should be alternate break. It lends to closer matches ,and who doesn't like to watch close matches?

 

[av84fun]

X Pan is small and has a thundering break. Sarah R. is small with a hard break. There are a dozen or so on the womens tour that are small and break hard. It takes hours of practice to get it to all come together on your break. Some practice it some don't.

After Corey won the Open with the soft cut break I think a lot of players (women pros included) started practicing the softer break. Johnnyt

GYK too. She misses square contact more often than she would like with her sidearm crank but most often she breaks BIG.

Gerda has been working on her break a lot and at least in practice, has been crushing the rack.

Regards,
Jim

 

[worriedbeef]

Incidentally I think short rack games like 9 ball and 10 ball should be alternate break. It lends to closer matches ,and who doesn't like to watch close matches?

this is a really simple obvious point really on the argument of winner breaks vs alternate that i don't think (to my knowledge) that anybody has mentioned.

in a short race you have alternate, a longer match winner breaks!

can't believe i never thought of it...

 

[av84fun]

I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. I think winner breaks matches are potentially more interesting.

I understand you think it was unfair that Feijen lost 11-0 to Gomez in the WPC. I have to agree but if the matches were for sale this would be the first one I would buy.



I'm not sure I understand. Do you think that "winner breaks" is killing 9 ball?

Actually, I didn't originate the first quote above but was responding to another poster...but that is my opinion too so I'll own it.

I respect your view that the Gomez/Feijn match was interesting and that it would be the first match you would buy. Different strokes for different folks.

And it WAS interesting, an a perverse sort of way. Any spectacle is interesting...including the Rodney King riots.

"Beating" a champion 11-0 is fundamentally interesting but the way in which it happened bored A LOT of people to tears as has been well documented on the forum.

If memory serves, there were very few balls that ever crossed center table so Gomez's match was played, for all intents and purposes on a 4.5x4.5 table.

Again, I have not memorized the post-break layouts but I don't recall more than one or two...if any...that a good shortstop couldn't have run out on.

But most importantly, the match lacked the DRAMA that can only exist when there is a CONTEST between warriors.

As for killing 9 Ball there are a lot of issues that are contributing to the demise of pro pool in America. It's not dead and never will be IMHO because the regional tours and money matches will exist forever.

But the soft break and winner breaks rob the sport of the drama I refer to above IMHO. A crushng break is fundamentally exciting to watch and a soft break is fundamentally boring to watch and when combined with winner breaks, the result is a crashing bore...IMHO

Regards,
Jim

 

[crawfish]

I know for a fact she has turned down the six ball in a winner break format. The possible stakehorse said the six "wasn't even close." Of course, this was about seven years ago?

 

[FLICKit]

There's one kinda big problem with winner breaks, that hasn't really been emphasized. Winner breaks can be an unfair non-competitive event.

Will use a very specific case scenario just for emphasis.

Player 1 basically runs 5 racks every turn.
Player 2 basically runs 7 racks every turn. Obviously better player.

These 2 players face each other in a race to 9 format.
If player 1 wins the lag, then he will run 5, making the score 5-0.
Player 2 then makes the score 5-7.
Player 1 runs the next 4 and wins 9-7.

The score looks a bit exciting. But in essence the outcome of the match was pre-determined. And the better player didn't win. Didn't even have a chance, unless he could miraculously beat his normal odds and run all 9 games. But, the odds just don't work in his favor.

Thus, there are numerous permutations of this, where winner breaks is a bad determinant of who's the better player, even on that night during that particular match.

In the example above, it took player 1 two turns to get to his 6th and 7th wins. It took player 1, a single turn to do the same. If the race were a little longer, say race to 21, then player 2 would win. If the race were greater than 25, then player 2 would win every time. But yet in the race to 9, winner breaks, the better player lost anyway.

 

[av84fun]

worriedbeef..." i'm open to be proved wrong/educated, but i can't possibly comprehend this to be true. if you play two shots at exactly the same speed, one hitting an object ball full ball and the other quarter ball, the full on contact ball will roll further because more energy has been transfered to the ball. surely? EDIT: actually thinking about it again i see you are not saying it doesn't make ANY difference, but rather it just makes less of one that you'd think. hmmm"

Right but I was shocked to learn just HOW little a difference it makes. I'll see if I can find the post where I was corrected on that point...or possibly Bob Jewett may chime in.

And let me THANK you and compliment the other contributors to this thread for keeping the debate polite. Obviously, I think this is a very interesting topic as do many others given the post count.

This is the way I would like ALL threads to be.
Regards,
Jim

 

[crawfish]

worriedbeef..." i'm open to be proved wrong/educated, but i can't possibly comprehend this to be true. if you play two shots at exactly the same speed, one hitting an object ball full ball and the other quarter ball, the full on contact ball will roll further because more energy has been transfered to the ball. surely? EDIT: actually thinking about it again i see you are not saying it doesn't make ANY difference, but rather it just makes less of one that you'd think. hmmm"

Right but I was shocked to learn just HOW little a difference it makes. I'll see if I can find the post where I was corrected on that point...or possibly Bob Jewett may chime in.

And let me THANK you and compliment the other contributors to this thread for keeping the debate polite. Obviously, I think this is a very interesting topic as do many others given the post count.

This is the way I would like ALL threads to be.
Regards,
Jim

I had over a twenty minute conversation at "my" poolroom with some local players about this subject. I knew it would make for some good debate. Thanks.

 

[av84fun]

There are four crucial areas in the game of 10 ball that the woman players are far behind the upper echelon male players. They are breaking,kicking,banking,and safety play.If the rules and conditions were designed to force players to utilize there skills in the four crucial areas as stated,then it is inevitable that the woman players will lose their confidence and break down,as would other male players as well.
Incidentally I think short rack games like 9 ball and 10 ball should be alternate break. It lends to closer matches ,and who doesn't like to watch close matches?

Coming from you, given your immense experience, I am DELIGHTED to have agreement on the alternate break rule for 9 Ball.

I'm not sure I agree with you re: safeties or banks unless you meant women in general...but you said "women players...vs. the upper echelon of men.

But both Karen and Allison have outstanding safety skills and Allison banks extremely well...in the context of 9 Ball...not bank pool.

Let me ask your input on the following. You said "upper echelon" men so that would have to include say, 10 players. So, you let me pick any of those 10 and I pick karen.

A committee creates 40 layouts and the contestants pick 20 each at random (so the second to shoot doesn't havge the advantage if they were to shoot the same layouts.)

Each player shoots a safety in one layout at a time and the scoring is as follows.

No hook=0
Hook with 1 rail escape = 1 point
Hook with 2 rail escape only = 2 points
Hook with only 3 rail escape = 3 points

BUT...the player against whom the safety is played gets to attempt to escape and if succussful 0 points are counted for the safety player.

No jump cues allowed.

The match is won based on total point count...not a race to any number.

Given the above, and knowing I can pick any one of the 10 players you nominate, how would you handicap such a match?

I say it's "pick 'em"


Regards,
Jim

 

[klockdoc]

As a spectator, I think alternate break takes away one of the most exciting aspects of watching pool... players stringing racks together. Some of the best matches I've seen are where players make comebacks from huge deficits to win matches.

While I respect your opinion, I don't understand it. Players can and often do string racks together in the alternate break format and they also stage comebacks from large deficits.

Regards,
Jim

I remember during a time in the Midwest Tour when they had a winner break format, watching Dave Matlock running 9 and out playing a fairly good player. Guy never had a chance.

Then I saw David playing a guy and winning 8 to 2 and the other kid coming back and beating David 9-8 with alternate break format.

I thought more of the second match than I did watching David win 9 games in a row without the other player shooting. Anyone that can come back and win with alternate break makes a more exciting game in my opinion than a winner break format.

 

[wincardona]

Coming from you, given your immense experience, I am DELIGHTED to have agreement on the alternate break rule for 9 Ball.

I'm not sure I agree with you re: safeties or banks unless you meant women in general...but you said "women players...vs. the upper echelon of men.

But both Karen and Allison have outstanding safety skills and Allison banks extremely well...in the context of 9 Ball...not bank pool.

Let me ask your input on the following. You said "upper echelon" men so that would have to include say, 10 players. So, you let me pick any of those 10 and I pick karen.

A committee creates 40 layouts and the contestants pick 20 each at random (so the second to shoot doesn't havge the advantage if they were to shoot the same layouts.)

Each player shoots a safety in one layout at a time and the scoring is as follows.

No hook=0
Hook with 1 rail escape = 1 point
Hook with 2 rail escape only = 2 points
Hook with only 3 rail escape = 3 points

BUT...the player against whom the safety is played gets to attempt to escape and if succussful 0 points are counted for the safety player.

No jump cues allowed.

The match is won based on total point count...not a race to any number.

Given the above, and knowing I can pick any one of the 10 players you nominate, how would you handicap such a match?

I say it's "pick 'em"


Regards,
Jim

Ralph Soquet,Reyes,Orcullo,Bustamate,Archer,Alcano,Hohmann,and VanBoening are my players. You present a interesting prop,but I don't think it answers our question on how Allison and Karen would fare against my players in a competition with the rules and condition I developed.But my answer to your proposal is neither Allison or Karen would be a favorite against any of the players mentioned,nor is it pickem.IMO

 

[BreakersOne]

Well.... I may be wrong, but last year at the Derby wasnt Johnny giving the 7 to Shane playing some sets, I think they came out even, but I cant remember so please dont quote me on that, maybe someone can shed some light on it, but my point is if Johnny can give Shane the 7, then IMO his margain of victory against Allison should be quite substantial in a race to 100. Either way I would love to watch that match.