Jump Shot Physics in Super Slow Motion

Maybe this is just obvious to some, or maybe few give it any real thought. However when I see 'physics' and 'jump' together. I'm hoping for an explanation of the dynamics that cause the CB to hop in the air.

Is the slate compressing..? Is the CB compressing...?

I personally subscribe (without proof) that the CB is squeezed out between the "wedges" the cue tip and slate represent
 
Dr Dave ,thanks for selecting the best in the business to assist you in this video. We have come a long way since Moscone's book.
 
Whenever possible rules need to be written in such a way as removing intent from action. Otherwise we will need a Polygraph for all tournament play. Shane did you intend to miscue...."NOPE". For me if you are jumping then you must not scoop. Miscue is a scoop. Intended or otherwise. Same with trying to Masse around an offending ball.
 
Maybe this is just obvious to some, or maybe few give it any real thought. However when I see 'physics' and 'jump' together. I'm hoping for an explanation of the dynamics that cause the CB to hop in the air.

Is the slate compressing..? Is the CB compressing...?

The CB is compressing the cloth and bouncing off the slate. You can see it fairly clearly at this point in the video:


I personally subscribe (without proof) that the CB is squeezed out between the "wedges" the cue tip and slate represent

This is actually closer to the explanation for why jumps don't work very well with heavier cues with softer tips. To get good jump action (as with a jump cue), the CB needs to separate from the tip as fast as possible so it has room to bounce off the slate without tip interference.

If you watch and listen to everything in the video again, I think this might become more clear.
 
Dr Dave ,thanks for selecting the best in the business to assist you in this video. We have come a long way since Moscone's book.

You're welcome. And you are right ... pool players today have access to much more free and useful information as compared to what was available in the past.
 
Whenever possible rules need to be written in such a way as removing intent from action. Otherwise we will need a Polygraph for all tournament play. Shane did you intend to miscue...."NOPE". For me if you are jumping then you must not scoop. Miscue is a scoop. Intended or otherwise. Same with trying to Masse around an offending ball.

Agreed. But that's not the way the WPA rules are written currently. FYI, I have been compiling lots of suggestions for rules changes over the years in the "What rules should the WPA and league systems consider changing?" section at the bottom of the page here:


I hope these suggestions will be considered the next time the rules are edited.
 
The CB is compressing the cloth and bouncing off the slate. You can see it fairly clearly at this point in the video:
Interesting... So in theory different grades of cloth could allow for lesser/greater "jumping action" if you will. That would be a very interesting theory to experiment against.

To extend that further... If it is indeed a matter of cloth compression. Then someone shouldn't be able to jump a ball without cloth...(?) All we need now is someone within the midst of a cloth change and crappy CB to try an experiment.
 
Interesting... So in theory different grades of cloth could allow for lesser/greater "jumping action" if you will. That would be a very interesting theory to experiment against.

Yes. The easiest way to test this is to add one or more pieces of spare cloth beneath the CB. It is much easier to jump the CB with thicker cloth, even with a heavy playing cue with a soft tip. Try it. I just did; and with 2 pieces of cloth, it is easy to clear a full obstacle ball (and a lot more) with any cue.

To extend that further... If it is indeed a matter of cloth compression. Then someone shouldn't be able to jump a ball without cloth...(?)

Well, the slate and can compress a little, but this is not required. What is required is the tip not getting in the way while the CB is trying to bounce off the slate. Regardless, it would be much more difficult to jump the CB off the slate with no cloth compression to help the CB clear the tip on the rebound.

All we need now is someone within the midst of a cloth change and crappy CB to try an experiment.

I wouldn't recommend it. The slate is really tough stuff; but without the cloth covering, a jump shot might cause slate damage.
 
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Yes. The easiest way to test this is to add one or more pieces of spare cloth beneath the CB. It is much easier to jump the CB with thicker cloth, even with a heavy playing cue with a soft tip. Try it. I just did; and with 2 pieces of cloth, it is easy to clear a full obstacle ball (and a lot more) with any cue.
Well, I guess that does provide some data to fuel the discussion, but I was thinking more of the difference of say 860 and 760. If this is indeed a measurable and reliable data point. It would be an entertaining selling specification to market cloth.
Well, the slate and can compress a little, but this is not required. What is required is the tip not getting in the way while the CB is trying to bounce off the slate.
Let me bounce this off you.... With far less extreme jump shots. They can be performed by striking the CB not only at the equator (relative to cueing angle) but below, and also above. Now I've never seen a slow-mo video of a CB strike above the equator but it does seem to fly in the face of getting the tip "out of the way". However I'm sure that's just a matter of the shaft deflection. Further... I've found the worst jumping cue I have tried was my old player. A combination of a Z2 shaft and rock hard playing tip. When I say 'rock hard', I mean it started out as a hard moori and lived for nearly a decade on that shaft....lol. I always had assumed it was the whippy nature of that shaft that made it terrible to jump with. The next thought was the extreme lack of end mass.

Short of the Cuetec Propel, the best jumper I have hit was a home brew design by my cue guy. He loaded the end of the CF shaft with a brass pin, so it had a ton of end mass. It's also far more rigid then my old Z2. Both those characteristics make it the polar opposite of my old player, which in theory should 'get out of the way' of the CB far better than the custom jumper.

As far as the slate compressing... Would this begin once the tip has reach a point of compression that makes is denser then the slate..? ...I'm assuming the resin the CB is made of is harder than typical slate...? I honestly don't know if it is or not.
Regardless, it would be much more difficult to jump the CB off the slate with no cloth compression to help the CB clear the tip on the rebound.
Even without knowing the physics, I have to agree. Stands to reason that a layer that is more easily compressible, (cloth) would make the whole shot easier. How much is the interesting part. My completely uneducated and unsubstantiated theory is that the difference would be minor.
I wouldn't recommend it. The slate is really tough stuff; but without the cloth covering, a jump shot might cause slate damage.
Fortunately I just so happen to have a chunk of slate from a snooker table that is beyond repair and will end up being unused for it design purpose. All I need is a sturdy table and CB that's worse for wear, and we can try an experiment.

What testing parameters would you suggest I adhere to...? Jumping with cloth and without I mean...

I'm thinking:
  • same cue, tip, etc
  • stroke velocity
  • approach angle
  • ????
 
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There was a guy in Columbus about 30 to 35 years ago, who was actually throwing the shaft at the cueball ,like a dart. He could almost jump the ball straight up in the air and make it travel 4 1/2 feet across table. I don't believe doing it that way , that he actually fouled the ball. The cue only contacted the ball on the initial throw , then he grabbed it and held it back after it rebounded. I think it is still illegal to use just a shaft , but he could have put a chunk of balsa wood on the end and called it a jump cue.
As a side note , the harder tip theory was proven by him also because he got the best results just using the phenolic ferrule , no tip at all.
I know venoms cue ball is very close, this guy could put it 1/4 inch from the object ball.! Really bizarre even now, at the time it was witchcraft.
I would rate the guy as a A- player tops , probably closer to B+ in all other respects ,but he was a monster at the jump.
 
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Well, I guess that does provide some data to fuel the discussion, but I was thinking more of the difference of say 860 and 760.

I wouldn't expect much difference there since the cloth thickness and compressibility are probably very similar.


Let me bounce this off you.... With far less extreme jump shots. They can be performed by striking the CB not only at the equator (relative to cueing angle) but below, and also above. Now I've never seen a slow-mo video of a CB strike above the equator but it does seem to fly in the face of getting the tip "out of the way". However I'm sure that's just a matter of the shaft deflection.

At lower cue elevations, the CB can clear the tip during and after the bounce off the slate much more easily, even with above-center hits.


Further... I've found the worst jumping cue I have tried was my old player. A combination of a Z2 shaft and rock hard playing tip. When I say 'rock hard', I mean it started out as a hard moori and lived for nearly a decade on that shaft....lol. I always had assumed it was the whippy nature of that shaft that made it terrible to jump with. The next thought was the extreme lack of end mass.

An LD shaft might have less hit efficiency. This and heavier cue weight both make jumping more difficult because they both give the CB less room to clear the tip during the bounce.


As far as the slate compressing... Would this begin once the tip has reach a point of compression that makes is denser then the slate..? ...I'm assuming the resin the CB is made of is harder than typical slate...? I honestly don't know if it is or not.

The slate compresses (very little) when the CB comes off the tip with nearly full speed, which occurs quickly during the incredibly brief tip contact time, mostly after maximum tip compression. With no cloth, the tip will still be in contact with the CB during the rebound off the slate, which will limit jump effectiveness.


Even without knowing the physics, I have to agree. Stands to reason that a layer that is more easily compressible, (cloth) would make the whole shot easier. How much is the interesting part. My completely uneducated and unsubstantiated theory is that the difference would be minor.

The thickness (and compressibility) of the cloth makes a huge difference with jump shot action, especially if using a softer tip and heavier cue.


Fortunately I just so happen to have a chunk of slate from a snooker table that is beyond repair and will end up being unused for it design purpose. All I need is a sturdy table and CB that's worse for wear, and we can try an experiment.

What testing parameters would you suggest I adhere to...? Jumping with cloth and without I mean...

I'm thinking:
  • same cue, tip, etc
  • stroke velocity
  • approach angle
  • ????

I would keep it simple. For a selection of cues with different weights and tip hardnesses, try center-ball hits at 45 degree cue elevation with the same stroke for each, and see how the jump height varies with the cloth thickness, starting with no cloth and adding one layer at a time.

Please let us know how it goes (and post a video if possible).

Have fun!
Dave
 
There was a guy in Columbus about 30 to 35 years ago, who was actually throwing the shaft at the cueball ,like a dart. He could almost jump the ball straight up in the air and make it travel 4 1/2 feet across table. I don't believe doing it that way , that he actually fouled the ball. The cue only contacted the ball on the initial throw , then he grabbed it and held it back after it rebounded. I think it is still illegal to use just a shaft , but he could have put a chunk of balsa wood on the end and called it a jump cue.

It is much easier to jump nearly vertically if the jump cue is lighter than the CB. An example can be found at the bottom of the page here:

It is also possible to use a lighter-than-the-CB cue to easily avoid double hits. I demonstrate it here, where I also discuss and show ways to make a shaft "legal:"



As a side note , the harder tip theory was proven by him also because he got the best results just using the phenolic ferrule , no tip at all.
I know venoms cue ball is very close, this guy could put it 1/4 inch from the object ball.!

There are examples on the page linked above with less than a toothpick-sized gap!
 
I would keep it simple. For a selection of cues with different weights and tip hardnesses, try center-ball hits at 45 degree cue elevation with the same stroke for each, and see how the jump height varies with the cloth thickness, starting with no cloth and adding one layer at a time.

Please let us know how it goes (and post a video if possible).

Have fun!
Dave
If I do happen to give it a shot (so to speak), I doubt I'll go down the rabbit hole of several cue/tip combinations.

I have only two jumpers. My original jump/break solid maple cue with a phenolic ferrule/tip, and the previously mentioned jumper my cue guy put together. It's CF, front end loaded with weight, and has some kind of resin based tip that's apparently harder than the CB.

I guess to give it a real world comparison flavour I'd need to stretch cloth over the slate. That might take some doing and a good sized chunk of cloth.

I'll update here if and when I go through the motions.
 
... So in theory different grades of cloth could allow for lesser/greater "jumping action" if you will. ....
In the 1970s cloth was typically thicker than Simonis and napped and jumping was easier. Rubber-backed cloth was also fairly common and it was very easy to jump on. I once jumped over a full rack to get to my break shot at 14.1 with my playing cue.
 
In the 1970s cloth was typically thicker than Simonis and napped and jumping was easier. Rubber-backed cloth was also fairly common and it was very easy to jump on. I once jumped over a full rack to get to my break shot at 14.1 with my playing cue.

That old fuzzy rubber-backed cloth was like a trampoline!
 
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