Jump sticks have changed the game

That seems like a rather odd reason to continue to allow your equipment to be abused. If I created a set of rules that maintained I had to run across the table with cleats on before every shot, would you let that slide as well...?...lol

I personally have never played by any set of rules other than the 'one-foul'. I don't even know how that game would be played. What do you do when a player sewers...? Potentail push out from above the head string...?
Obviously I can't speak to how things are at your place. At my poolroom in Germany we didn't have a problem with jump cues harming the cloth. But we also taught every player how to jump with full cues and with jump cues. We also taught them to masse' properly.

I feel that actively teaching patrons pool skills is also greatly lacking in America. For me I wanted to make every patron into a dedicated player if I could. We offered free pool lessons, introduction to teams, traded cleaning the room and other errands for table time and more advanced lessons and brought in pros to do clinics.

All of my patrons knew to use a piece of cloth to practice jumping and how to clean the table afterward to erase and diminish any spots left by such practice.
 
I’m afraid you can’t go backwards - in its purest form, 9-ball would be a completely different game from today’s 9-ball game.

14.1 is the only game, other than possibly one pocket, that is still played in its purest form, for the few of us that still play it.
Actually before 14.1 the game was simply continuous pool where you broke a full rack each time. 14.1 is a modification of that game. A better one that makes the game tougher for sure but not the purest version of straight pool.
 
And people forget or don't know that jump cues were created before the world went to one foul. Players used to push to jump shots in two-foul. Those who had cues with better jumpability were at an advantage in those days. Players with meuccis were screwed back then unless they had a jump cue, which meucci made one of as well.
This is really misleading. In the pro game, they went to one foul in about 1983 or 1984. Yes, jump shots existed, but you rarely saw one, even at pro level. Jumps were a trivial part of the game. Jump cues were rarely seen, even in pro events, until the mid-1990s, even though the modern jump cue was invented in about 1987 by Pat Fleming.
 
Umm having to come with a much more difficult shot or give up ball in hand is penalty enough.
Ummm.... we all know how easy it is to hop over the edge of an obstruction. Wouldn't call that a much more difficult shot. We're not talking about parking yourself in jail without recourse. This is where a shooter has gone an 1/8 of a roll too far/short and gets to bail his bad play out with a jump shot, not specifically the use of a jump stick.
 
Are jumps shot difficult or easy...? You seem to be on both sides of the fence depending on who you want to argue with...lol
They‘re like kicks. Harder than not having to get around a blocker, but doable. Much more doable for those who devote time and effort to practicing them.

If there’s a blocker, regardless if you screwed up yourself, or if your opponent put you there, the resulting options are significantly more challenging than if it wasn’t there. Rightfully so.
 
They‘re like kicks. Harder than not having to get around a blocker, but doable. Much more doable for those who devote time and effort to practicing them.

If there’s a blocker, regardless if you screwed up yourself, or if your opponent put you there, the resulting options are significantly more challenging than if it wasn’t there. Rightfully so.
Well ok but I'm going to have to side with the 'kick crowd' on this one. This part of the discussion is focusing on a potential 'first shot rule' for using a jump shot. ...so if your opponent put you there, then you have the option to use a jump shot. However if you screwed up your shape, then you don't have the option.

I'm sure you can attest for yourself that when you screw up shape play and snooker yourself, it's probably not but a heavy margin. If the jump shot was not an option then the possibility of potting that snookered ball falls through the floor. Sure there are varying circumstances so lets not pretend to be able to place percentages on the likelyhood of outcomes. The point is, if you're playing shape for a direct pot and end up snookering yourself, your turn at the table is likely over and it should be.
 
Well ok but I'm going to have to side with the 'kick crowd' on this one. This part of the discussion is focusing on a potential 'first shot rule' for using a jump shot. ...so if your opponent put you there, then you have the option to use a jump shot. However if you screwed up your shape, then you don't have the option.

I'm sure you can attest for yourself that when you screw up shape play and snooker yourself, it's probably not but a heavy margin. If the jump shot was not an option then the possibility of potting that snookered ball falls through the floor. Sure there are varying circumstances so lets not pretend to be able to place percentages on the likelyhood of outcomes. The point is, if you're playing shape for a direct pot and end up snookering yourself, your turn at the table is likely over and it should be.
But the point remains, whether you jump, kick, or masse, you already have a much more difficult shot, especially when you factor in the need/desire for shape on subsequent shots than if you didn’t have something in the way. You’ve screwed up and paid a price. Now you need to recover with a good, more difficult shot. There are plenty of times when I could jump, but kick because it’s a better alternative, and vice versa.

I admit, I’m a better jumper than many players, but it’s because I’ve worked at it. There are a lot of people a lot better than me at banking, or kicking, or whatever. That doesn’t mean that I think that they shouldn’t be allowed to play to their own strengths as I do to mine. It’s all part of the challenge of the game, and if we’re smart we adjust our own game to account for an opponents strengths as well as their weaknesses. Hell, a well executed push out does exactly that, doesn’t it?
 
But the point remains, whether you jump, kick, or masse, you already have a much more difficult shot, especially when you factor in the need/desire for shape on subsequent shots than if you didn’t have something in the way. You’ve screwed up and paid a price. Now you need to recover with a good, more difficult shot.
We've started on the arc, and are about to commense running in circles...lol.

Out of those three options the jump is the easest to perform and control. I get you like jumping, as do I. However I can also appreciate Stu's thoughts on the jump shot (stick) being a crutch for bad play. ...and agree with him that a "first shot" rule could balance things out.

I personally like the idea that my opponent needs to play tighter safeties. I also like the idea for actually punishing weak players for screwing up more than just forcing them to walk over to the case and pull out the jumper. More often than not, self induced snookers are extremely minor, and to consider hoping over the edge of a obstruction a "much harder" shot is really over stating it.

I personally have spent a ton of time practicing OB spin induced throw as an alternative to hoping the edge of an obstruction. Comes in real handy in 14.1. However it's a nearly pointless skill in a game that allows jumping. Not complaining, just saying the jump is the easiest of the bunch.
 
Obviously I can't speak to how things are at your place. At my poolroom in Germany we didn't have a problem with jump cues harming the cloth. But we also taught every player how to jump with full cues and with jump cues. We also taught them to masse' properly.

I feel that actively teaching patrons pool skills is also greatly lacking in America. For me I wanted to make every patron into a dedicated player if I could. We offered free pool lessons, introduction to teams, traded cleaning the room and other errands for table time and more advanced lessons and brought in pros to do clinics.

All of my patrons knew to use a piece of cloth to practice jumping and how to clean the table afterward to erase and diminish any spots left by such practice.

Teaching people the proper way to play the game goes a long way. I just taught an APA 1 how to rack, and then she proceeded to slop in 4 balls against me to knock us out of the playoffs ;)
 
I remember a time when you had to jump with the stick you either broke or played with.
Now we have players pushing out to jump shots (the Matlock thread reminded me of this.)

If you had to jump with a full cue, I wonder if people would take time to learn kicks, push out differently, or still jump?
My opinion is jump cues should be banned, period. Also rules should be changed in any game
that allows ball in hand. Its just ridiculous to be able to pick up the cue ball and
place it anywhere on the table. Straight pool is the real test.
 
This is really misleading. In the pro game, they went to one foul in about 1983 or 1984. Yes, jump shots existed, but you rarely saw one, even at pro level. Jumps were a trivial part of the game. Jump cues were rarely seen, even in pro events, until the mid-1990s, even though the modern jump cue was invented in about 1987 by Pat Fleming.
That's because jump cues didn't become so necessary until the rules went to one foul.

The modern jump cue was actually invented by Oliver Stops in Germany in about 1991ish. That was the first jump cue to use phenolic tips and normal shafts with a conical taper and have about an 8oz weight.

Since then there have been many variations. In America Eddie Pruitt was the first to offer a jump cue with a phenolic tip, Eddie's 747. But it was just a thick Dowell with a 15mm tip. One could make the ball hop but with little to no control.

The Oliver Stops cue was the first to offer a full range of jumpability with cue ball control. Since then jump cues have only improved until there is almost no such thing as a bad jump cue in terms of performance.

Prior to jump cue lengths being set at a minimum of 41" we were jumping with shafts and no one cared. I gambled A LOT playing two foul roll-out and never once did anyone complain when I would use a shafts to jump.

You know when the complaints started? When jump cues got really well engineered. When they became real instruments of precision shot making the complaints started in America. No such complaints in Europe where I lived throughout the 90s.

I will say this about American pool and jump cues. Because we went through the Jump Rod period, thick rods only good for making the cue ball jump with very little precision, I feel that these devices soured many on jump cues in general.

We never had jump rods in Europe. We had jump cues, starting with the Meucci, joss, Huebler models which increased the range of possible jump shots but which were not really well engineered. Then Oliver Stops really reinvented the jump cue into a really precise instrument that allowed the player access to an amazing range of jump shots, from a credit card width to table length into a small area.

The rise of modern jump cues and adoption tracks 100% in lockstep with the rise of one-foul ball-in- rules.

As they say necessity is the mother of invention and in this case the precision jump cue allowed players to add a wide range of new shots to their skill set provided that they take the time to develop those skills.

Or, to put it another way, a jump cue allows me to make shots that Strickland was doing with a "full-ish" cue but Strickland with a modern jump cue can do so much more and more consistently than I ever can.

Even so I still have to practice to be able to pull off the shots at all even with a jump cue.

I understand your point from a spectator perspective. I hope you understand mine from a get-in-the-grease perspective. The ease of playing safe in one foul nine ball is not commensurate with the penalty for not making a good hit. So the player facing a blocked object ball needs every legal weapon and skill to use it that they can acquire.

Sometimes the jump is the best shot to take. Sometimes the kick and sometimes the masse'. Now with the modern equipment the human shooter has the full range of shots available that are humanly possible and they face no limits other than their own personal skill level.
 
My opinion is jump cues should be banned, period. Also rules should be changed in any game
that allows ball in hand. Its just ridiculous to be able to pick up the cue ball and
place it anywhere on the table. Straight pool is the real test.
Test of what? Each game has different characteristics which require different skills. Jumping is just a skill that became more needed with the rule changes. But it was still a necessary skill under two foul rollout just not as prevalent. People who could jump had an advantage over those who couldn't. They often pushed to jump shots knowing that their opponent didn't have the ability to make the shot.

Every discipline is a test of ability. Some people would say that running five racks of 8 or 9 ball is a harder task than running 100 in straight pool. 8 and out in one pocket is clearly harder than running 14 in straight pool.

Maybe we should ban chalk if you really want to find out who can really play. And especially ban low deflection cues. In fact make it no chalk and everyone plays with a house cue and lepro tips. Roughing the tip not allowed.

Or, we can enjoy the modern game played with state of the art equipment which allows the shooter to make shots barely imagined in the past if that player has put in the effort to master those shots.
 
Well ok but I'm going to have to side with the 'kick crowd' on this one. This part of the discussion is focusing on a potential 'first shot rule' for using a jump shot. ...so if your opponent put you there, then you have the option to use a jump shot. However if you screwed up your shape, then you don't have the option.

I'm sure you can attest for yourself that when you screw up shape play and snooker yourself, it's probably not but a heavy margin. If the jump shot was not an option then the possibility of potting that snookered ball falls through the floor. Sure there are varying circumstances so lets not pretend to be able to place percentages on the likelyhood of outcomes. The point is, if you're playing shape for a direct pot and end up snookering yourself, your turn at the table is likely over and it should be.
Wow. So why not then simply end the turn when the shot is blocked? Why the need for extra penalties?

You have never seen kick shots where the object ball goes in? I mean I don't understand the difference in utilizing a simple kicking system and using a jump cue. I can teach anyone here how to kick consistently and their make percentage will go way up. Their hit percentage will skyrocket. And so then will the number of fortunate results after the kick.

Why should a player be thought of as more skilled when they get a lucky roll off of a kick than if they made a deliberate controlled jump shot?

We all want to see run out pool.

A jump shot is harder than a regular shot.

Why do we pretend that it isn't and seek to layer on punishments for not playing perfect all the time? Hooking yourself is bad enough without telling a player he can't use a legal cue to attempt to recover.
 
John, just curious if you ever see that your opinions are usually the exact opposite of most people who post.
If that were true, which it isn't, why would it matter? My opinions are generally formed through experience with the subject, factual knowledge of the subject and having spent time thinking about the subject.

So if they are contrary to the majority on a topic then it's likely that the majority didn't have the same experience, knowledge or depth of thought on the subject.

This happens to be one of the topics where I happen to be intimately familiar with all aspects of it.
 
My opinion is jump cues should be banned, period. Also rules should be changed in any game
that allows ball in hand. Its just ridiculous to be able to pick up the cue ball and
place it anywhere on the table. Straight pool is the real test.
Who could ban them and change the rules?
 
I disagree about the proposed rule that distinguishes the legality of the cue for hooking yourself and being hooked by your opponent.

Games should be kept pure and simple. Specialty rules like this only serves to complicate the game for viewers and players alike. Either ban the cues or don't. I usually hate slippery slope type reasoning, but this kind of specialty rule really is a slippery slope. When people try very hard to control the direction of a game, it often leads to stagnation and boring gameplay, like in call safe 10 ball. Games should be allowed to progress organically, at least until they get broken and need urgent fixing.

Banning the cue would lead to some intesting developments I think. Possibly someone would invent a hybrid cue which would be suitable for jumping as well as playing. Trying to ban innovations like this usually leads to an arms race, and the governing body will constantly be behind the newest developments.

This years World Pool Masters showed better jumping skills than I expected (the few shots I actually saw, haven't seen many matches yet), which is good. I think many of my objections have been due to the low quality of execution in past years competitions. The uglyness of out of control cueballs bouncing around on the table hurts my aestetic sensibilities. If people were master jumpers with good cueball control, it could make for interesting viewing. I don't think that is contradictory to my earlier viewpoints. I'm all for rules that allow players skill to shine through. I personally think a full cue jump with a playing cue can be a beautiful thing and is generally much harder to pull off. However, a controlled jump shot with a jump cue can also be good. If we can get to the point where people control the cueball much like a normal shot, as a rule rather than the exception, it wouldn't be too bad to keep the jump cue.
 
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My opinion is jump cues should be banned, period. Also rules should be changed in any game
that allows ball in hand. Its just ridiculous to be able to pick up the cue ball and
place it anywhere on the table. Straight pool is the real test.


Agreed. It warps the game.

I suppose we could ban them. While we are at it, if you really want purist pool, we can ban.....
Carbon fiber shafts. .
Low deflection shafts...
Phenolic tips...
Layered tips...
Speciality chalk...
Pool cue extensions...
Billiard gloves...
Magic racks...

And Worsted cloth didnt exist in the purist days either. Ban it. It plays too fast. It warps the game. Go back to slow rolling nappy wool.
Can anybody add more to the list?

And while we are at it... make fouling on purpose desirable again. Foul on purpose and make incoming player shoot from the kitchen. Yep.... bar rules. Let's ban 8 ball, 9 ball, 10 ball, one pocket, bank pool, and all the rest. I mean since straight pool is a real test.

How about doing away with masse shots? I don't know about you, but I think a well-executed masse shot is one of the most beautiful shots in pool. But, if you make a bad position shot and hook yourself, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to masse either.

Or, how about we do this....
Allow jump cues in certain tournaments, disallowing them in others. Then you have the choice of going to it, or not. Every tournament director would be allowed to set up their tournament with their rules. Uhhh.... like we are doing it now.

Paul... what if someone came into your establishment and said you must allow jumping and jump cues? Its exactly the same telling someone that they cant.

Pool is going to progress, (or regress according to you), with you or without you. What will happen is a person will be dried up relics left in the dust.

What's wrong with keeping it fresh and interesting with some variety? I play APA, (no jump cues) and BCA, (jump cues allowed) and some Texas Express tournaments. I accept those rules going in and enjoy all 3
 
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