Jumping in the game of pool - yes or no?

[philly]

This is typical of your type of post. I'm not butthurt about anything. I simply stated that a one rail kick is just as easy as a simple jump shot. I didn't mean to sound like I disagreed with Philly. I used it as a general statement about some of the reasoning used against jump shots. There is no way you can say Cory was breaking softer then what Philly described. I would call his soft break "a strong force follow". And guess what? I don't see anything wrong with Cory's soft break either.

"Jump at a ball near a pocket and yes, it's a low skill endeaver.". Guess what? I can argue a kick shot with a ball near the pocket is just as low skilled. Ugly? I don't see a well executed jump shot that way. I see it as artistic. And the Dr Dave shot is harder to accomplish then the kick off the long rail. It sounds to me you want to regulate every shot in the game. And you are calling me butthurt? You are only saying that because you don't agree with me. I NEVER called any one particular person butthurt....until now..... And it's you!

Some of my force follows are pretty substantially hit as are some my draw shots. I play on 9 footers and if you want to hit follow on a ball that is almost straight in and seven feet away from the cue ball and want to get the cue ball back to where you are shooting. Well you sort of have to whack it. Not smash it like a break shot.

No you don't kick much. A one rail kick is can be very difficult and it has to be exact. . I call them open field tackles. I actually prefer a two railer, sometimes a 3 railer as there is more room for error. If you don't know what I mean then you better keep jumping because you don't understand what the rails are for.

 

[JC]

This is typical of your type of post. I'm not butthurt about anything. I simply stated that a one rail kick is just as easy as a simple jump shot. I didn't mean to sound like I disagreed with Philly. I used it as a general statement about some of the reasoning used against jump shots. There is no way you can say Cory was breaking softer then what Philly described. I would call his soft break "a strong force follow". And guess what? I don't see anything wrong with Cory's soft break either.

"Jump at a ball near a pocket and yes, it's a low skill endeaver.". Guess what? I can argue a kick shot with a ball near the pocket is just as low skilled. Ugly? I don't see a well executed jump shot that way. I see it as artistic. And the Dr Dave shot is harder to accomplish then the kick off the long rail. It sounds to me you want to regulate every shot in the game. And you are calling me butthurt? You are only saying that because you don't agree with me. I NEVER called any one particular person butthurt....until now..... And it's you!

So can we put you down as a maybe for outlawing jump shots?

JC

 

[JC]

There is no way you can say Cory was breaking softer then what Philly described. I would call his soft break "a strong force follow".

Is this is a strong force follow?

https://youtu.be/oluYzU2b8nY?t=4

JC

 

[Meucciplayer]

(and methinks kicking is usually more difficult otherwise why would anyone jump rather than kick)

Oh, there are reasons why people do it.

Let's stick with the professionals first. Look at how often they use jump shots.

- not very often vs. kick shots

- if they select a jump shot, how often do they make it AND still have a position on the next ball that an average/good player could make? Ok, the pros make a lot of those "lost position" shots because they are pros. A regular player would have a low or very low percentage of making those.

- from what I have seen even the pros only pocket about 60-70% of attempted jump shots and that would be an optimistic assumption

Now let's revert to regular/better players. How far does their percentage drop? I would definitely say below 50%.

You would also have to look at which jump shots they attempt to make. Almost everybody can make a hanger where the ball already sits in the jaws of a pocket. I see jump shots done in many such cases where a kick shot would be practically as easy as a jump. Still, the "show off potential" of a jump shot is higher and that may well be a reason for quite a few jumps. Another might be to justify the money (and time) invested in jump equipment.

The further the OB is away from the pocket the less likely a jump shot will have a success rate anywhere near 50%.

I agree that there are a few shots where a jump shot is way easier than a kick. However, these are pretty rare. And then you still need someone who really knows how to jump properly. I agree with the other poster above and I'd estimate about 5-10% of the people I see are good enough to make it worthwhile to jump unless the OB is an absolute hanger. Those players are usually good enough in all facets of pool to win, jump cue or not. I have yet to see a C or worse player who wins games because of his jump stick. C players are usually D jumpers. So, let 'em jump. And even a B player won't normally win games by virtue of his jumps.

 

[philly]

Oh, there are reasons why people do it.

Let's stick with the professionals first. Look at how often they use jump shots.

- not very often vs. kick shots

- if they select a jump shot, how often do they make it AND still have a position on the next ball that an average/good player could make? Ok, the pros make a lot of those "lost position" shots because they are pros. A regular player would have a low or very low percentage of making those.

- from what I have seen even the pros only pocket about 60-70% of attempted jump shots and that would be an optimistic assumption

Now let's revert to regular/better players. How far does their percentage drop? I would definitely say below 50%.

You would also have to look at which jump shots they attempt to make. Almost everybody can make a hanger where the ball already sits in the jaws of a pocket. I see jump shots done in many such cases where a kick shot would be practically as easy as a jump. Still, the "show off potential" of a jump shot is higher and that may well be a reason for quite a few jumps. Another might be to justify the money (and time) invested in jump equipment.

The further the OB is away from the pocket the less likely a jump shot will have a success rate anywhere near 50%.

I agree that there are a few shots where a jump shot is way easier than a kick. However, these are pretty rare. And then you still need someone who really knows how to jump properly. I agree with the other poster above and I'd estimate about 5-10% of the people I see are good enough to make it worthwhile to jump unless the OB is an absolute hanger. Those players are usually good enough in all facets of pool to win, jump cue or not. I have yet to see a C or worse player who wins games because of his jump stick. C players are usually D jumpers. So, let 'em jump. And even a B player won't normally win games by virtue of his jumps.

Yup. Let em jump. I love getting ball in hand.

 

[o.g. (old guy)]

I personally feel that jump cues shouldn't be allowed, I have one and use it occasionally when allowed and when it is the higher % shot, however I feel that you should only jump with your player. For those that think no jump shots should be allowed at all consider this ; almost all hard breaks in 9, 10 and 8 ball jump slightly although you may not be intending to, it happens. So technically if jump shots are not allowed with your player a foul could be called on you.

 

[LeonD123]

I don't like jump cues. I only use mine for hangers in critical situation/big events. My kicksafe success rate is very high, much higher than any jumper I know.

Jump cues kinda destroy the beauty of safety battles and kickshots. I would love to see it forbidden asap.

Everytime I see a player walking to his cue case to pick up his jump cue makes me cringe.

 

[chainsaw]

Sorry I'm old school. When I learned to play pool 50 yrs back and if your did an intentional safe People called you names, didn't want to play with you anymore Or you were waited for and taken out to the back ally for a good black eye or 2. BUT now it's apart of our game and people take great delight in to leaving you snookered. Even if they can run out they still safe you just for the satisfaction of seeing you squirm. If anything that takes away from the game and the way it's suppose to be played.As far as jumping I have found that people that can't jump or won't invest in a good jump cue or take the time to practice jumping wants it abolished. As long as intentional safeties are allowed. They deserve to have a shot and if they are good enough to jump and make the shot so be it. Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[eihi]

Do balls flying over the table and slamming into the slate, leave any type of pressure dings(miniscule of course)?

My grandpa taught me to play and was against it, so I adopted being against it as well. Kinda silly on my behalf, but the truth.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Nah, we are talking about a shot that was illegal (the jump shot) that was made legal. ...

The jump shot was always legal at pool. Jump cues just made them easier.

Related to which, most jump and break cues have illegal tips, at least according to the WPA equipment specifications:

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..​

Phenolic tips damage the cue ball by forcing chalk grains (sand) into the surface of the cue ball. Softer tips do less of that by taking the abuse themselves.

 

[JoeJester]

English billiards were the forerunner to pool. Jumpshots were fouls.

WPBSA current English Billiards and Snooker Association jump shots are fouls.

I don't recall any jump shots from the 1960s on TV.

I don't know if jump shots, scooping or otherwise, were common in the early days of American billiard sports.

Now, my opinion is, jump shots are for those who don't want to solve the puzzle using the six sets of rubber bumpers provided on the table.

Yes, I agree rules change. Not many play 14.1 anymore because of the time to play a match, let alone watch one on TV. The station owners don't want a slow moving sport. Even 8 ball became too slow for TV.

 

[buckshotshoey]

So can we put you down as a maybe for outlawing jump shots?

JC

Put it this way.... I play both ways. It doesn't have to be carved in stone. I use a jump cue when other options are gone. Play the percentages. I play in mini tournaments where they are allowed. I play in BCA where they are allowed. I play in (well, I used to) APA WHERE they are not allowed. It doesnt have to be done one way, everywhere. I don't see variety as a bad thing.

It's like chainsaw said.... even safetys were frowned upon at one time. If everyone wants old school, ban the jumps, and ban the safetys.

Think of it this way.... if only full length cues were allowed for jumping, the player that used a soft playing tip will always have the disadvantage.

And I apologize if I sounded testy to you a while ago. I was in a pissing match with the wife when I wrote that. I could have been a little more diplomatic.

 

[heater451]

Jump Rods

Jump cues just made them easier.

This is one of my issues. I always thought that the metal jump "rods" were outlawed because they made jumping TOO easy, but because the shortened cues make it easier than using a full cue, but *not* TOO easy, they were allowed. This seems inconsistent to me, to the point that I think if you change to a (wooden) jump stick, then you should at least have to finish the round/inning with it.

However, the jump rods probably also had phenolic tips, which then makes it outlawed for that reason--which Bob also mentioned as being illegal, but I did not include in the quote above.

 

[zeeder]

This is one of my issues. I always thought that the metal jump "rods" were outlawed because they made jumping TOO easy, but because the shortened cues make it easier than using a full cue, but *not* TOO easy, they were allowed. This seems inconsistent to me, to the point that I think if you change to a (wooden) jump stick, then you should at least have to finish the round/inning with it.

However, the jump rods probably also had phenolic tips, which then makes it outlawed for that reason--which Bob also mentioned as being illegal, but I did not include in the quote above.

That's how the MO State 9-ball is. You have to finish the inning with the cue you came in with, except for the break. This means you can't use a jump cue if you hook yourself and you have to continue using it if you make the jump and the nine is still on the table.

 

[NCC1515]

Some things to consider:

Some billiard players think all of us pocket pluggers, and pocket games in general, are barbaric.

Comic relief aside, many players don't realize how many times the cue ball leaves the table - albeit rising fractions of an inch above the bed - on many 'normal' shots. Just about any time a players cue ball is up agains the cushion and they want to impart some 'stop' or 'draw' action on it, they jack up the butt of their cue and stroke with gusto. Then the cue ball jumps up an eighth, a quarter or a half an inch. Most of the time no one notices.

Try this: put the cue ball near the end rail, then arrange three balls just one spot away, all three on a line going across the table and touching each other. Then take the middle ball away. Then line your cue ball up with the space in the middle of them, with the cue ball near the cushion. Then jack up your regular playing cue at about a 45deg angle and shoot as if you want to put draw on the cue ball. It is easy to shoot over those two balls and the cue ball only rose off the table by 1/8 or 1/4 inch. Once you've cleared those two balls a few times then move them closer together. See how much 'air' you can get with just your playing cue.

Next time you have a ball that is blocking your shot by a fraction of an inch, why would you try a masse or a bank when you know how to get a little air?

Some years ago I sat in the pro challenge arena at BCA Nationals and listened to a semi-pro cry about how 'low deflection' shafts were ruining the game of pool. "No one has to know how to aim anymore!" he said. REALLY?! No one needs to know how to aim anymore??? Using that logic, it's like saying carbon fiber and other exotic materials shouldn't be allowed in golf or tennis equipment, because anyone who doesn't play with the same types of equipment made in the 1920's has an unfair advantage. Riiiiiiight....

Like any other sport, rules get created, modified, challenged, complained about, thrown out, etc. When the short fat aluminum 'cues' caused enough eyebrows to be raised, they were thrown out. But the rule makers knew there were plenty of people who could still jump legally, by definition, using just their playing cue or break cue or obstruction/shorty cue, so they had to clarify the 'jump rule along with making the super short metal 'cues' off limits.

So at this point, you can buy a copy of one of the very first popular 'legal' jump cues for about $50. Dozens of iterations of that same design are being sold on Ebay, Amazon, and etc. Also at tournament events. Legal length, legal tip, light in weight, stiff in shaft, and usually with a 13-14mm tip. Unless and until they outlaw jumping in these 'barbaric' pocket table games, you will only add to your chances for victory if you take a little time and train yourself to jump out of some tight spots. If they ever outlaw 'jumping' altogether (how could they? will they start policing all those accidental jumps that people get when shooting off a rail?) you can change the tip on your 'jump' cue and turn it into a nice obsruction cue.