Just In from Chicago Attorneys Regarding YOUR Check

[oneballeddie]

Doesn't Make Sense to Me

IF you cash your check it becomes a "Contract Case" which is dismissible in bankruptcy court.

If you don't cash it, you have a chance to prove fraud and collect the entire amount. By cashing your check, you are agreeing to the terms in the letter, and IF he does not follow through with the terms in the letter, he can bankrupt

It's YOUR CALL!!!!!

If you don't plan to cash your check, email me.

Eydie,

No offense and I certainly appreciate all the research you have done on this tragedy, but I think this advice is both impractical and wrong. First, it is impractical because every player will cash these first installment checks if they haven't already. It's human nature. Second it doesn't matter whether or not the IPT files bankruptcy and "discharges" its debts. It seems pointless to preserve the right to sue the IPT because the IPT has no assets. Note that an IPT bankruptcy does not dispose of potential actions againt KT and others based on their personal promises and/or fraudulent actions. I see no value in preserving the right to sue a bankrupt operation with no assets. What am I missing?

OBE

 

[Eydie Romano]

Eydie,

No offense and I certainly appreciate all the research you have done on this tragedy, but I think this advice is both impractical and wrong. First, it is impractical because every player will cash these first installment checks if they haven't already. It's human nature. Second it doesn't matter whether or not the IPT files bankruptcy and "discharges" its debts. It seems pointless to preserve the right to sue the IPT because the IPT has no assets. Note that an IPT bankruptcy does not dispose of potential actions againt KT and others based on their personal promises and/or fraudulent actions. I see no value in preserving the right to sue a bankrupt operation with no assets. What am I missing?

OBE

OBE,absolutly NO offense taken...

Maybe this will clear up a few things:

Disclaimer: I am not giving legal advise, I am NOT an attorney. I am relaying what several attorney's have told me.


The players actually have 2 choices:

1. They can cash the checks
2. They can Not cash the checks

This is completely up to them and in no way whatsoever, would I ever tell anyone what to do with their funds. I am just providing information from several attorney's who are following this case, that specialize in this type of situation.

I would hope that each players consults an attorney before entering into this agreement with the checks.

I am trying to provide all pertinent information to the players so they are aware of what their rights are, and what this situation consists of. The information is being provided so that they are aware of "ALL" scenario's that may or may not occur, and that no one can ever say "I didn't know this could happen" or "If I had known this might happen, I would have maybe done things a different way"

First and foremost, everyone hopes and prays that the IPT will continue in a good fashion.

If this is not going to happen, then other issues could arise from the smoke.

If it does not continue, and they file bankruptcy or just walk away there are several choices the players have IF they didn't cash the checks.

Providing that all the information regarding the IPT is correct/founded if sent to BR Court, then the people who have cashed their checks are all done, they get no more. They are all done...

If for whatever reason during or before the bankruptcy, there is found to be any fraudulent activities conducted with the IPT (Disclaimer: I am not saying in anyway that there is or has been anything fraudulent) then the people who have NOT cashed their checks, have rights to all the moneys owed to them PLUS possible damages if found guilty/liable (after many yrs of litigation) in a court of law. Bankruptcy does not cover any fraudulent activities, and is not dismissible in BR court, so that makes the top dog and possibly others, PERSONALLY responsible to pay these players.

If They cashed their checks that were sent with the attached letter this past week, they have now entered the contract that KT has stated in the letter. Then it becomes a contract, and in law and IS dismissible in BR Court. This leaves out any other option for them to EVER recoup their due funds.

As it stands right now, without cashing the check, there is no contract for this money owed to the players. They are owed every last cent, and don't have to take partial payments. Again, by cashing the checks, it becomes a contract, and they are bound by this contract.

Everyone should contact their own attorney before entering into any agreement.

Hope this helps...

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Nope, If the IPT is incorporated, then you can not go after him personally, only the corporation. Kinda like the Ken Lay thing. He was liable as an offficer of the company(criminal), but his personal fortune was untouchable(civil). Which is why he died a VERY rich man, and his estate could not be sued.

Are you sure that Ken Lay died a very rich man? He had to sell off his houses around the country, as well as other assets just to pay his legal expenses. At trial, he testified that he had been wiped out by Enron's collapse and that he was a net debtor to the tune of $250,000.

 

[Roadie]

Also, the officers of a company can be held liable if they commit criminal acts using the the company to enrich themselves. In the case of Enron, Lay and Co. were falsifying statement about the health of the company in order to keep the stock price high whilst they were vigorously selling off their shares to enrich themselves.

A Limited Liabilty Corporation doesn't protect the principals or thier personal assets from prosecution in criminal matters. In fact, anyone can sue anyone else personally. It is common practice to sue the corporation and the officers pesonally to "see which one sticks" so-to-speak. Often the personal suits are dismissed or the claims are rolled into the suit against the company instead. But sometimes the court finds that personal liabilty exists when the officer of the company acted fraudulently in his representation.

 

[oneballeddie]

Rich Enough to Buy the IPT

Are you sure that Ken Lay died a very rich man? He had to sell off his houses around the country, as well as other assets just to pay his legal expenses. At trial, he testified that he had been wiped out by Enron's collapse and that he was a net debtor to the tune of $250,000.

Oct. 24, 2006, 12:21AM
Government sues Ken Lay's estate

WASHINGTON - The government filed suit against the late Ken Lay's estate Monday, hoping to wrest control of the one-time Enron chairman's River Oaks condominium and other assets valued at about $12.7 million.

 

[oneballeddie]

I Hear You

OBE,absolutly NO offense taken...

Maybe this will clear up a few things:

Disclaimer: I am not giving legal advise, I am NOT an attorney. I am relaying what several attorney's have told me.


The players actually have 2 choices:

1. They can cash the checks
2. They can Not cash the checks

This is completely up to them and in no way whatsoever, would I ever tell anyone what to do with their funds. I am just providing information from several attorney's who are following this case, that specialize in this type of situation.

I would hope that each players consults an attorney before entering into this agreement with the checks.

I am trying to provide all pertinent information to the players so they are aware of what their rights are, and what this situation consists of. The information is being provided so that they are aware of "ALL" scenario's that may or may not occur, and that no one can ever say "I didn't know this could happen" or "If I had known this might happen, I would have maybe done things a different way"

First and foremost, everyone hopes and prays that the IPT will continue in a good fashion.

If this is not going to happen, then other issues could arise from the smoke.

If it does not continue, and they file bankruptcy or just walk away there are several choices the players have IF they didn't cash the checks.

Providing that all the information regarding the IPT is correct/founded if sent to BR Court, then the people who have cashed their checks are all done, they get no more. They are all done...

If for whatever reason during or before the bankruptcy, there is found to be any fraudulent activities conducted with the IPT (Disclaimer: I am not saying in anyway that there is or has been anything fraudulent) then the people who have NOT cashed their checks, have rights to all the moneys owed to them PLUS possible damages if found guilty/liable (after many yrs of litigation) in a court of law. Bankruptcy does not cover any fraudulent activities, and is not dismissible in BR court, so that makes the top dog and possibly others, PERSONALLY responsible to pay these players.

If They cashed their checks that were sent with the attached letter this past week, they have now entered the contract that KT has stated in the letter. Then it becomes a contract, and in law and IS dismissible in BR Court. This leaves out any other option for them to EVER recoup their due funds.

As it stands right now, without cashing the check, there is no contract for this money owed to the players. They are owed every last cent, and don't have to take partial payments. Again, by cashing the checks, it becomes a contract, and they are bound by this contract.

Everyone should contact their own attorney before entering into any agreement.

Hope this helps...

Thanks for the elaboration. Here's what's missing for me. First thing. On the one hand, it is argued that accepting the payment plan is entering into a contract that can be discharged in a BK, but on the other hand it doesn't explain why the original default on the $3M obligation is a) not a breach of contract and b) absent fraud - not dischargeable in a BK. We are not talking about the fraud scenario here just the bad debt.

Second thing. The attorneys say those who cash the check are "all done". Then it goes on to talk about how KT can be held personally liable if fraud has occurred - and, claims based on fraud cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy. So, if fraud has been involved anywhere in the chain of events, how can cashing a check negate that fraud and any claims that might arise from it - including both the people owed 100% and the people owed 89% or 78% or whatever? In fact, it seems to me that using the payment plan as a maneuver to convert a debt from non-dischargeable "non-contract" debt (something I admit I don't understand as explained above) to dischargeable contract debt - compounds rather than mitigates the fraudulent actions.

The only difference I can see between cashing and not cashing is whether or not you can file today, or you have to wait until December 9.

Moreover (and whereas and so forth, etc.) the claims by all those who relied on the whole "personal guarantee" - the card holders, the qualifiers, the Top 100, etc. - is about 15 times bigger than the $3M action. How could cashing a payment on the $3M negate these other claims?

Regards,
OBE

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I NEVER Get Money Back

This may have been addressed and simply missed it, but, if you were owed (for example) $10,000 and only paid $2,000 by years end, could you Deduct the other $8,000 on your tax form ? Is there ANY tax advantage to being stiffed (receiving partial payment) ?
Doug
( we file over the telephone )

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Oct. 24, 2006, 12:21AM
Government sues Ken Lay's estate

WASHINGTON - The government filed suit against the late Ken Lay's estate Monday, hoping to wrest control of the one-time Enron chairman's River Oaks condominium and other assets valued at about $12.7 million.

Even if Lay's estate is now worth $12.7 million, at one time he was probably worth well over $100 million, which is quite a fall from his heyday.

 

[jimmyg]

This may have been addressed and simply missed it, but, if you were owed (for example) $10,000 and only paid $2,000 by years end, could you Deduct the other $8,000 on your tax form ? Is there ANY tax advantage to being stiffed (receiving partial payment) ?
Doug
( we file over the telephone )

You can only deduct losses from valid, unpaid bad debt in the year that the debt is determined to be totally worthless. You cannot deduct it while you are still expecting future payments.

So, if you and I have an agreement for you to accept five bags of popcorn over time, you cannot deduct the four bags I still owe you until you see me eat them.

Jim

 

[steadyneddy]

If what the original poster said is true, why don't the players just sit on the checks? Checks are good for something like 6 months, and I believe everyone is supposed to be paid their 33% in under 6 months, so just put the checks under your mattress until you have all three of them and just take them all to the bank at once. Now if my times aren't correct this wouldn't work but if they are and IPT did claim bankruptcy you would still have a case because they haven't cashed the checks.

They are only good if the money is in the bank, what bank are they drawn on? Call and verify the funds before making a trip!

 

[steadyneddy]

Where are the big guns in all of this....the top prize winners.....I am sure they have had their attorneys look into this and I am sure they have information as well. My opinion, just an educated guess.....if this is fraud the FBI will be involved due to the amount of funding/payouts involved. Not to mention this also involves professional sports with professionals. If his business was incorporated then there is no way to go after his personal assets. If the Attorney General gets enough signatures on a COMPLAINT then that office has a responsibility to the public to pursue the matter. If fraud is proven and he has no money to pay anyone out of the "business" then you get no money. A court may award damages in the realm of court fines, paying the players and JAIL TIME!

OBE,absolutly NO offense taken...

Maybe this will clear up a few things:

Disclaimer: I am not giving legal advise, I am NOT an attorney. I am relaying what several attorney's have told me.


The players actually have 2 choices:

1. They can cash the checks
2. They can Not cash the checks

This is completely up to them and in no way whatsoever, would I ever tell anyone what to do with their funds. I am just providing information from several attorney's who are following this case, that specialize in this type of situation.

I would hope that each players consults an attorney before entering into this agreement with the checks.

I am trying to provide all pertinent information to the players so they are aware of what their rights are, and what this situation consists of. The information is being provided so that they are aware of "ALL" scenario's that may or may not occur, and that no one can ever say "I didn't know this could happen" or "If I had known this might happen, I would have maybe done things a different way"

First and foremost, everyone hopes and prays that the IPT will continue in a good fashion.

If this is not going to happen, then other issues could arise from the smoke.

If it does not continue, and they file bankruptcy or just walk away there are several choices the players have IF they didn't cash the checks.

Providing that all the information regarding the IPT is correct/founded if sent to BR Court, then the people who have cashed their checks are all done, they get no more. They are all done...

If for whatever reason during or before the bankruptcy, there is found to be any fraudulent activities conducted with the IPT (Disclaimer: I am not saying in anyway that there is or has been anything fraudulent) then the people who have NOT cashed their checks, have rights to all the moneys owed to them PLUS possible damages if found guilty/liable (after many yrs of litigation) in a court of law. Bankruptcy does not cover any fraudulent activities, and is not dismissible in BR court, so that makes the top dog and possibly others, PERSONALLY responsible to pay these players.

If They cashed their checks that were sent with the attached letter this past week, they have now entered the contract that KT has stated in the letter. Then it becomes a contract, and in law and IS dismissible in BR Court. This leaves out any other option for them to EVER recoup their due funds.

As it stands right now, without cashing the check, there is no contract for this money owed to the players. They are owed every last cent, and don't have to take partial payments. Again, by cashing the checks, it becomes a contract, and they are bound by this contract.

Everyone should contact their own attorney before entering into any agreement.

Hope this helps...

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

This may have been addressed and simply missed it, but, if you were owed (for example) $10,000 and only paid $2,000 by years end, could you Deduct the other $8,000 on your tax form ? Is there ANY tax advantage to being stiffed (receiving partial payment) ?
Doug
( we file over the telephone )

Speaking of taxes, if a player decides not to cash the checks that are sent to them, they still owe income taxes on the amount that was sent to them.

 

[memikey]

......and also speaking of taxes.....there is presumably a whole potential can of worms regarding the possible consequences arising from the issue of money IPT have deducted from foreign players prize money payments and whether/when IPT can/will actually pay that money to the US Govt

 

[Fleece3]

Even if Lay's estate is now worth $12.7 million, at one time he was probably worth well over $100 million, which is quite a fall from his heyday.

Check Belize...I am sure you will find a few MILLIONS there in offshore accounts.

BTW, Ken Lay had just shy of a BILLION

 

[jay helfert]

......and also speaking of taxes.....there is presumably a whole potential can of worms regarding the possible consequences arising from the issue of money IPT have deducted from foreign players prize money payments and whether/when IPT can/will actually pay that money to the US Govt

Bankruptcy won't protect them there. If they don't pay these monies, someone could well end up in the hoosegah. Pay attention Dumbo.

 

[NYC cue dude]

steadyneddy,

the truth of the matter is, as it has been stated here numerous times, that if fraud is proven to have been committed, than the people responsible, ie officers and ownership, that they can be sued personally as well.

So, if the ipt itself has no assets, but the people behind the ipt have money, than it is possible to seize those assets.

Additionally, if fraud is proven, there can be no limit to what the plaintiffs may sue for, as punitive damages can come into play. No longer will the ipt be sued for 3 million (minus the 11% recently paid out). They can be sued for kt's personally guaranteed 100k per player and substantial punitive damages.

rg

 

[sjb]

Thanks for the elaboration. Here's what's missing for me. First thing. On the one hand, it is argued that accepting the payment plan is entering into a contract that can be discharged in a BK, but on the other hand it doesn't explain why the original default on the $3M obligation is a) not a breach of contract and b) absent fraud - not dischargeable in a BK. We are not talking about the fraud scenario here just the bad debt.

Second thing. The attorneys say those who cash the check are "all done". Then it goes on to talk about how KT can be held personally liable if fraud has occurred - and, claims based on fraud cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy. So, if fraud has been involved anywhere in the chain of events, how can cashing a check negate that fraud and any claims that might arise from it - including both the people owed 100% and the people owed 89% or 78% or whatever? In fact, it seems to me that using the payment plan as a maneuver to convert a debt from non-dischargeable "non-contract" debt (something I admit I don't understand as explained above) to dischargeable contract debt - compounds rather than mitigates the fraudulent actions.

The only difference I can see between cashing and not cashing is whether or not you can file today, or you have to wait until December 9.

Moreover (and whereas and so forth, etc.) the claims by all those who relied on the whole "personal guarantee" - the card holders, the qualifiers, the Top 100, etc. - is about 15 times bigger than the $3M action. How could cashing a payment on the $3M negate these other claims?

Regards,
OBE

No disrespect to anyone else's statements, but I think OBE's analysis here is the closest to correct. Maybe something is just getting lost in the translation here of what the lawyers are saying.

Also, some seem to have the misconception that "fraud" equates to "criminal." It can, but what's being contemplated here is a civil matter (at least from the players' perspective). In a civil case, fraud is usually termed as "intentional misrepresentation."

 

[Snapshot9]

This is SPAM

Anyone interested in making money talking in a forum?
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You're out of line to be posting this here. Take your spam somewhere
else. (and did you nitice they pay you, but did not say how much you earn per word posted ....lol - an old famous trick)

 

[ScottW]

You're out of line to be posting this here. Take your spam somewhere
else. (and did you nitice they pay you, but did not say how much you earn per word posted ....lol - an old famous trick)

It's just a spambot posting. All of the posts by that 'user' are identical.

Best to let Mike/Dave know so they can ban it.

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

Anyone interested in making money talking in a forum?
Go through the link below and check it out! Doesn't cost money, just talking makes you money......pretty much can't go wrong. Anyways, please use my link as it will allow you to be my referral. Thanks.

http://www.mylot.com/?ref=fletch86

How many times are you going to post this crap?
I think you need to be voted off the island
have a nice day
mrs.g