Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed

[magnetardo]

"Class" by dragging a guys name through the mud for what?He didnt steal anything and never sold a damn thing so give him a break,he said he only did that after an argument and people being jerks.Jack should have PMd John and if you decide to attack someone who has you as a link on his site then you need to have something to back it up instead of accusations.
There are people on here who sell knockoffs and we arent attacking them, people jump on the bandwagon so easily here.

And how did Mr Justis drag anyone's name thru the mud?? He asked if anyone knew who was selling knockoffs of his cases, someone sends him a PM where John Barton made it clear that he was intending to import and sell them. All JJ did was post JB's words. If JB's quote makes him look bad, whose fault is that?? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. And as far as "he only said that after people were being jerks to him" ohh boo hoo, someone was mean to me so let's sell knockoffs off his shit?? What a joke.

 

[Fast Lenny]

And how did Mr Justis drag anyone's name thru the mud?? He asked if anyone knew who was selling knockoffs of his cases, someone sends him a PM where John Barton made it clear that he was intending to import and sell them. All JJ did was post JB's words. If JB's quote makes him look bad, whose fault is that?? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. And as far as "he only said that after people were being jerks to him" ohh boo hoo, someone was mean to me so let's sell knockoffs off his shit?? What a joke.

Boohooo,in the world there are more problems that are serious compared to someone making knockoffs of cue cases and cues,to be honest i dont care if anyone makes knockoffs.People will buy what they want to buy, something low quality and cheap or something high quality and expensive, its your choice.Its sad that these knockoffs have been around for years and alot of people on here probably own them obviously,so anyone who owns an Instroke is wrong?,anyone who sells Instoke is wrong also?If they only carried original high priced custom cases at poolhalls,trade shows,and online they wouldnt be making money.

 

[ShootingArts]

per a network news special

John,

One of the networks did a full one hour expose on this somewhere around six or eight months ago. What I am saying here is what they explained in great detail and had representatives of the companies involved explain in interviews. For all of that, the news story may not have been 100% accurate. Regardless, from what they said and what you are saying, I personally don't want anything made for me in china. If there is demand for something, gray market will get it over here if it is being made cheap. It doesn't matter about export and import laws.

I have proto-type shops, CNC shops, foundries, and injection molders available locally and some CNC capabilities myself. Manufacturing is often not the primary cost for putting something on the market anyway and I'll trade complete local quality control for a slightly higher price.

Hu

As far as I know this is not the case. The manufacturer may not appropriate a client's established brand for sale in the Chinese market. They are certainly not allowed to export those items. These things can however be made part of the contract. A contract term can be that the IP belongs to the contractor forever. If this is agreed to then the manufacturer is forbidden to make the product.

It is becoming common practice however for Chinese companies to register trademarks in China for the sole purpose of being able to deny all other companies the right to produce items with that trademark. This then 'somehow' morphs into producing goods using that trademark for the Chinese market.

You are right - $$$$ is where it's at. It goes beyond just the low cost of goods but the speed of development and design are also sometimes much faster here. - sometimes -

You know what is truly funny - despite all the copying and proliferation of copied goods - in the Chinese market there are plenty of outlets for the real thing. Luxury brands are all around here and selling for as much or more than in the West. if anything the Chinese are MORE brand conscious than westerners because of the total availability of knockoffs.

I think that it drives people to desire the real thing and as soon as they can afford it they buy the real thing. And every day more and more people in China can afford the originals. So ironically, China may end up being the world's largest consumer of both knockoffs and original products.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

a PM where John Barton made it clear that he was intending to import and sell them. All JJ did was post JB's words. If JB's quote makes him look bad, whose fault is that??

"he only said that after people were being jerks to him"

That's the part I'm having trouble with. I came back to this after a quiet supper hoping I would be obliged to apologize to John and withdraw my comment in my earlier post.

Something still doesn't ring right.

 

[magnetardo]

Boohooo,in the world there are more problems that are serious compared to someone making knockoffs of cue cases and cues,to be honest i dont care if anyone makes knockoffs.People will buy what they want to buy, something low quality and cheap or something high quality and expensive, its your choice.Its sad that these knockoffs have been around for years and alot of people on here probably own them obviously,so anyone who owns an Instroke is wrong?,anyone who sells Instoke is wrong also?If they only carried original high priced custom cases at poolhalls,trade shows,and online they wouldnt be making money.

If selling knockoffs isn't a big deal then how on Earth is Jack Justis dragging John Barton's name thru the mud by posting John Barton's quote saying he was going to sell the knockoffs?

I'll bet if you spent the last 20 or so years handcrafting a product and then have some scumbag start selling blatant copies of your product I'm pretty sure you would take offense to it.

 

[John Barton]

How in the world do you think John Barton is owed an apology? Mr Justis posted an exact quote where JB said plain and clearly that his company was going to import and sell knock off Justis cases, what does JB do? Oh that was out of context blah blah, the point is JB said: "Sure. You will be able to buy them from Sterling Gaming in about two months. I have decided to start importing them. Call 877-283-7444 to set up an account and we will call you as soon as they show up.

John"

Now JB claims never to have gone thru with it, what does that make him? A LIAR plain and simple. Then he goes on to knock Mr Justis' product and character and then expect an apology?? No way.

JB, you may think that your cases are better or look better than a Justis case (and that's your opinion and you're entitled to it) but I will tell you this; in the CLASS department Jack Justis can give you the 5 out ALL DAY.

Jack used the PM to accuse me of ACTUALLY importing the knockoffs HE PICTURED. He asked for WHO is DOING IT NOW - NOT who intended to and never did.

While it was a mistake to say that I would import them it WAS done in anger over a dispute on another board and saying something stupid out of anger only makes me HUMAN. As for the liar part well I said I call him when they showed up - to date he has received no phone call from me.

Class, really? It doesn't take ANY class to use a private message to make an unfounded accusation. Jack COULD have asked me and if NOT satisfied with my answer could have STILL posted the PM.

So I fail to see how that shows class.

Let's get one thing straight right now. Jack Justis has ZERO monopoly on tooled cases. None. His first cases were nearly identical to Jay Flowers. How do I know this? I had a friend who had both which I studied when I built my first case. In fact I used the tubes from my Flowers case in the first case I ever built.

And in Jack's own words he decided to BEGIN making cases because he was not satisfied with being told that he would have to wait 8 weeks for a case.

So by that logic if I wanted a Justis but was told there would be 2 month wait then it would be perfectly acceptable for me to make my own case that looked just like a Justis and start a business selling them right? What's good for the goose is good for the gander?

I have every right in the world to make cases that are similar in style to a Justis if I so choose. The case that the PM refered to is EMBROIDERED not tooled and is vinyl. There would not be a court in the land that would EVER bar me from importing that case if I chose to. So IF had followed through with importing that case then there would have been NO MORAL or LEGAL issues because the case would have been sold to an ENTIRELY different segment of the market and would have been a different case in the eyes of the law. No consumer would have ever believed that one of the embroidered cases and a Justis came from the same place.

So despite the fact that the impetus for wanting to import it was anger it was and remains my right to do so IF I choose to. I chose not to for the simple reason that there is no need to copy Justis in order to sell cases. Had I actually done it THEN Jack would have a gripe. Saying I was going to means nothing at all. Jack SHOULD have checked whether any actual importing was happening by me BEFORE posting the message.

And that is where the LACK of class on Jack's part comes in. This could have been AVOIDED had he simply checked with me to find out that I am NOT the importer of ANY cases that resemble his look. Instead he jumped to that conclusion based on a private text that referred to a different case and posted the accusation too quickly which shows lack of judgement and class - or he did it premeditatedly which shows a lack of class and character.

Yeah I expect an apology. Jack knocked me hard and owes me one pure and simple. He is lucky that I don't decide to make cases like his because I can guarantee that there WILL be people who WOULD have bought a Justis who would buy my versions. But you see they beautiful irony in all this is that Jack doesn't get hurt no matter what.

WHY

Because no matter what I do or anyone else does he WILL still be able to find enough people who want a case from him. I know for a fact that some folks bought Instrokes at shows when the choice for them was Instroke or Justis. And you know what? Jack STILL sold out the 20 or so cases he brought because that is the NATURE of custom vs. production. So Jack will always be able to make as many cases as he is comfortable doing by himself. There was NO NEED for him to do what he did to me.

So if you consider a false accusation to be the example of class then I have to agree. For that type of behavior Jack can give me the five out all day.

 

[magnetardo]

False accusation??

So if you consider a false accusation to be the example of class then I have to agree. For that type of behavior Jack can give me the five out all day.

Simple yes or no question, did you or did you not PM somone and tell them you were going to start importing Jack Justis copies??



---Quote (Originally by John Barton)---
---Quote (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)---
JOHN, I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TELL ME WHERE I CAN ORDER A CASE LIKE THE JUSTIS COPY YOU POSTED. MY GIRL WANTS A JUSTIS BUT SHE ABUSES EVERYTHING.
THANKS

(XXXXXX)
---End Quote---
Sure. You will be able to buy them from Sterling Gaming in about two months. I have decided to start importing them. Call 877-283-7444 to set up an account and we will call you as soon as they show up.

John
---End Quote---

 

[Fast Lenny]

If selling knockoffs isn't a big deal then how on Earth is Jack Justis dragging John Barton's name thru the mud by posting John Barton's quote saying he was going to sell the knockoffs?

I'll bet if you spent the last 20 or so years handcrafting a product and then have some scumbag start selling blatant copies of your product I'm pretty sure you would take offense to it.

You dont call someone a design thief and "expose" him when there is no basis for it,you can say he was thinking of selling knockoffs and didnt,that doesnt hold much water though does it when it is put into correct context.

I would be upset if someone was copying something i had created,your correct on that but you cant blame John Barton for that.

 

[BlowFish]

As far as I know this is not the case. The manufacturer may not appropriate a client's established brand for sale in the Chinese market. They are certainly not allowed to export those items. These things can however be made part of the contract. A contract term can be that the IP belongs to the contractor forever. If this is agreed to then the manufacturer is forbidden to make the product.

It is becoming common practice however for Chinese companies to register trademarks in China for the sole purpose of being able to deny all other companies the right to produce items with that trademark. This then 'somehow' morphs into producing goods using that trademark for the Chinese market.

You are right - $$$$ is where it's at. It goes beyond just the low cost of goods but the speed of development and design are also sometimes much faster here. - sometimes -

You know what is truly funny - despite all the copying and proliferation of copied goods - in the Chinese market there are plenty of outlets for the real thing. Luxury brands are all around here and selling for as much or more than in the West. if anything the Chinese are MORE brand conscious than westerners because of the total availability of knockoffs.

I think that it drives people to desire the real thing and as soon as they can afford it they buy the real thing. And every day more and more people in China can afford the originals. So ironically, China may end up being the world's largest consumer of both knockoffs and original products.

I agree on what you are saying her John. I've lived in HK for a good 20yrs now and have seen it all. I don't like what I see, but I'm also aware of reality. In the end, people still buy the real ones.

On a side note:

You won't believe how close they are to the real stuff. When copies are done, they are done to gradings.

Gradings like C, B, A, AA, AAA with different pricing of course. With Triple-A copies, even up close and right infront of their noses, the companies like LV, Gucci, Prada, Coach, etc won't be able to tell the difference.

This very companies are have record sales in Asia with China in particular.

 

[magnetardo]

You dont call someone a design thief and "expose" him when there is no basis for it,you can say he was thinking of selling knockoffs and didnt,that doesnt hold much water though does it when it is put into correct context.

I would be upset if someone was copying something i had created,your correct on that but you cant blame John Barton for that.

Does this sound like "thinking" of selling knockoffs? "I have decided to start importing them." To me, the thinking process was already done and his decision was made, now if he actually DID import them we may never know.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Does this sound like "thinking" of selling knockoffs? "I have decided to start importing them." To me, the thinking process was already done and his decision was made, now if he actually DID import them we may never know.

You win,his master plan was in action when he replied to someone about the cases and never followed through with it because maybe he realized he didnt want to be that guy,he was still treated by Mr. Justis as if he were but the punishment doesnt fit the crime.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I Don't Have A Horse, But I've Read Most Of These Debates In 10 Years Online

As usual, people have read SOME of the thread, some people have read ALL of the thread, some people have read all THREE of Jacks threads here and some haven't read anything but the last couple of posts.

Some have read what they WANTED the thread to read and mean and some read it, but didn't comprehend what they'd read. Some have a horse in the race and only see THEIR horse's side of the issue.

There have been heated discussions/wars about Instroke-Justis-Whitten cases online for YEARS. This particular dead horse was grazing at Inside Pool in a heated discussion about cases. Five or six months ago, John Barton told someone in a PM (PRIVATE Message) that they may soon buy a lookalike case at Sterling Gaming. He was mad and said it in anger and John isn't producing, importing or selling Justis knock offs.

Jack received a copy of this old long dead horse PM and decided that AZB (not Inside Pool, where it started) was the best place to start three threads on the subject. Jack should have just phoned or e-mailed John and asked him about it (after all these years of discussions about their respective cases).... imo

It appears that there ARE knockoff Justis cases. There HAS BEEN for a number of years. According to John, there are about to be MORE knockoffs of Justis and Whitten cases available in the very near future. John Barton has NOTHING to do with these cases and feels that he is owed an apology. Many here agree with John, while Jack's loyalists only believe in Jack and have their ears & eyes covered while chanting "la,la,la,la,la,la,la" .....

Doug
( at least, that's the way that I READ IT )

 

[BlowFish]

As usual, people have read SOME of the thread, some people have read ALL of the thread, some people have read all THREE of Jacks threads here and some haven't read anything but the last couple of posts.

Some have read what they WANTED the thread to read and mean and some read it, but didn't comprehend what they'd read. Some have a horse in the race and only see THEIR horse's side of the issue.

There have been heated discussions/wars about Instroke-Justis-Whitten cases online for YEARS. This particular dead horse was grazing at Inside Pool in a heated discussion about cases. Five or six months ago, John Barton told someone in a PM (PRIVATE Message) that they may soon buy a lookalike case at Sterling Gaming. He was mad and said it in anger and John isn't producing, importing or selling Justis knock offs.

Jack received a copy of this old long dead horse PM and decided that AZB (not Inside Pool, where it started) was the best place to start three threads on the subject. Jack should have just phoned or e-mailed John and asked him about it (after all these years of discussions about their respective cases).... imo

It appears that there ARE knockoff Justis cases. There HAS BEEN for a number of years. According to John, there are about to be MORE knockoffs of Justis and Whitten cases available in the very near future. John Barton has NOTHING to do with these cases and feels that he is owed an apology. Many here agree with John, while Jack's loyalists only believe in Jack and have their ears & eyes covered while chanting "la,la,la,la,la,la,la" .....

Doug
( at least, that's the way that I READ IT )

And you're dead right.

 

[Fast Lenny]

As usual, people have read SOME of the thread, some people have read ALL of the thread, some people have read all THREE of Jacks threads here and some haven't read anything but the last couple of posts.

Some have read what they WANTED the thread to read and mean and some read it, but didn't comprehend what they'd read. Some have a horse in the race and only see THEIR horse's side of the issue.

There have been heated discussions/wars about Instroke-Justis-Whitten cases online for YEARS. This particular dead horse was grazing at Inside Pool in a heated discussion about cases. Five or six months ago, John Barton told someone in a PM (PRIVATE Message) that they may soon buy a lookalike case at Sterling Gaming. He was mad and said it in anger and John isn't producing, importing or selling Justis knock offs.

Jack received a copy of this old long dead horse PM and decided that AZB (not Inside Pool, where it started) was the best place to start three threads on the subject. Jack should have just phoned or e-mailed John and asked him about it (after all these years of discussions about their respective cases).... imo

It appears that there ARE knockoff Justis cases. There HAS BEEN for a number of years. According to John, there are about to be MORE knockoffs of Justis and Whitten cases available in the very near future. John Barton has NOTHING to do with these cases and feels that he is owed an apology. Many here agree with John, while Jack's loyalists only believe in Jack and have their ears & eyes covered while chanting "la,la,la,la,la,la,la" .....

Doug
( at least, that's the way that I READ IT )

TAP!TAP!TAP!

 

[magnetardo]

You win,his master plan was in action when he replied to someone about the cases and never followed through with it because maybe he realized he didnt want to be that guy,he was still treated by Mr. Justis as if he were but the punishment doesnt fit the crime.

Ok so you think Mr Justis jumped the gun, I'll give you that much. But, do you think it warrants comments such as this:


"First of all Jack, IF I wanted to copy you then I wouldn't do it with that crappy design. I would make a case that you couldn't even begin to dream of doing. Well in fact I am doing a case like that and when you see it you will wish that you could do it. But you don't have the skill nor the team to do it. So stick to your basic designs."


Now again all Jack did was post John Barton's words, do you think a guy like Jack deserves this kind of shot? You should go back and look over the years how Jack & JB act in public forums, JJ has never been anything but a well respected member of this forum and for some reason JB always seems to mix it up with somebody. Try looking up some of JB's rants on RSB if you want some laughs!

 

[John Barton]

If selling knockoffs isn't a big deal then how on Earth is Jack Justis dragging John Barton's name thru the mud by posting John Barton's quote saying he was going to sell the knockoffs?

I'll bet if you spent the last 20 or so years handcrafting a product and then have some scumbag start selling blatant copies of your product I'm pretty sure you would take offense to it.

LOL - IF said "scumbag" actually was selling the knockoffs then you might have a point. But if said scumbag merely said he was going to and didn't then there is NO ISSUE.

But I like this message enough to repeat it.

" I'll bet if you spent the last 20 or so years handcrafting a product and then have some scumbag start selling blatant copies of your product I'm pretty sure you would take offense to it." You said.

Kinda like when Jay Flowers invested all that time and effort into making his style of cases and along comes a customer with a patience problem who decides to create a competing company instead of waiting????

And since I keep referring to this "blatant ripoff" I guess I should quote the source,

From the Ask The Casemaker Thread at the Inside Pool Magazine's Jimbo Section HERE Jack says "Around 1990 I made my first cues and was looking for a case to carry them. I saw a Flowers and liked the quality and looks. When I tried to order one from Jay, he told me it would be 8 weeks. After reading Al Stolhman's book on CaseMaking, I decided I would build one and only one myself. In about a week, I had the case almost completed and was really happy with the way it looked. One of my friends came over one night, saw the case and the rest is history....started on the second one and the damn thing just snowballed from there. Believe it or not, it was actually 5 years before I had a case with my name on it. If Jay had said, sure I will ship you one tomorrow, I doubt very seriously I would have ever given a second though to making my own case. Funny how things happen some time. I was with Chris-Craft Corp, the boat builders, for 17 years, after that I started making custom fishing rods, dabbled in photography to take pics of the rods, started doing a little cue repair, eventually made a few cues which led into the case fiasco. Now you know everything! It's been exciting but I plan on winding down in a few and maybe go back into building high end rods."

And also says in the same thread here, "Jay Florwers certainly had a great influence on many of todays casemakers, including me. I had been looking a many different designs and without question Jay's case was of the highest quality and a design that I liked best. I changed the pockets, lid, straps, and the tooling but he did not like it one bit and then quit making cases altogether. I tried to convince Jay that there was enough room for both of us, even thou the styles were similar. Even thou he gave up making cases, we did become rather good friends and talked regularly. I made a case for Jay and he wrote me a letter stating it was nicer than anything he had made. That made me feel real good and out friendship was drawn even closer til his demise."

And so if Jack is allowed to use Jay Flower's style then anyone is certainly entitled to use Jack's. I don't have ANYTHING against the way Jack got into cases. His impetus was impatience and mine was the fact that the Flowers I had didn't provide the security I wanted. But let's not BS ourselves and pretend that what we do is hard, rocket science, or even exclusive. It's not.

Getting copied sucks. It sucked for Jay Flowers, it probably sucked when George copied Fellini and sucked when Porper took Bob Meucci's design for the foam core style case. I sure hated it when my cases were copied. But it's part of the cycle and anything that is popular will get copied in some form.

For Jack to finger me though when I have NOT copied him is pretty low though. Jack Justis is sullying my name by calling me a thief when it is not true and is the farthest thing from the truth. I would never steal his designs - I would make them better.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Ok so you think Mr Justis jumped the gun, I'll give you that much. But, do you think it warrants comments such as this:


"First of all Jack, IF I wanted to copy you then I wouldn't do it with that crappy design. I would make a case that you couldn't even begin to dream of doing. Well in fact I am doing a case like that and when you see it you will wish that you could do it. But you don't have the skill nor the team to do it. So stick to your basic designs."


Now again all Jack did was post John Barton's words, do you think a guy like Jack deserves this kind of shot? You should go back and look over the years how Jack & JB act in public forums, JJ has never been anything but a well respected member of this forum and for some reason JB always seems to mix it up with somebody. Try looking up some of JB's rants on RSB if you want some laughs!

Jack posted 3 or so threads and calling someone a design thief warrants someone saying that they wouldnt steal his stuff but will make more complex and a better product isnt wrong,maybe the words were harsh but im the type who doesnt believe in an eye for an eye but 2 eyes for an eye.

 

[sde]

These four words

..... we may never know.

to me sums up this whole discussion and why I will not make any further comment, because I do not know.

Steve

 

[Fast Lenny]

to me sums up this whole discussion and why I will not make any further comment, because I do not know.

Steve

LOL!

 

[John Barton]

Ok so you think Mr Justis jumped the gun, I'll give you that much. But, do you think it warrants comments such as this:


"First of all Jack, IF I wanted to copy you then I wouldn't do it with that crappy design. I would make a case that you couldn't even begin to dream of doing. Well in fact I am doing a case like that and when you see it you will wish that you could do it. But you don't have the skill nor the team to do it. So stick to your basic designs."


Now again all Jack did was post John Barton's words, do you think a guy like Jack deserves this kind of shot? You should go back and look over the years how Jack & JB act in public forums, JJ has never been anything but a well respected member of this forum and for some reason JB always seems to mix it up with somebody. Try looking up some of JB's rants on RSB if you want some laughs!

No my comments like this were out of line I admit.

But then this was so far out of line that it goes off the chart.

" Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed"

So please forgive me if i use a little poetic license. JB mixes it up because JB doesn't give a rat's ass about pleasing everyone. I participate in this forum WAY WAY more than Jack ever has and give back to the community in WAY more ways than he ever has. When is the last time Jack sponsored an event? Or a player with anything but a free case? I could care less how polite you think he is - he totally blew it on this one and got the warm and fuzzy side of JB's rant - and that's BECAUSE of the respect that I HAD for him.

By the way Jack posted my words OUT OF CONTEXT and IN REFERENCE TO THE WRONG CASE and COUPLED WITH A FALSE ACCUSATION. So I don't know how to measure out of line but that seems pretty out there to me.