Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed

RRfireblade said:
It can go both ways.

In an attempt to qualify my presence in this thread :D . . .

My company has offered truly unique innovative and never before seen product in our industry going back 20 years. As anyone can tell you , US manufacturing on almost any scale cannot compete with the Asian market. 20 years ago it was not as big an issue as the Asain market could not compete in quality. Back then it was very upsetting to have product show up at half your 'cost' on the market devaluing your own. Eventually tho , the quality shows it's ugly head and the exposure may actually help your business.

Today however , the import quality is quickly catching up making the differences less and less each day. In some areas or retail the consumer may even be fully aware of that difference but justify it by the difference in cost. "Yes, it's not as good but at half the price . . " Again , 2 sides form. Those who want the 'value' and those who want the real thing.

My biggest problem , and not one that applied here , is looking across my desk I see no less then a dozen 'knock offs' returned for warranty. That really sucks in all ways.

In the issue at hand here , no one buying a brand new import case for $150 on Ebay thinks he's really getting a Justis. Justis is not going to have to deal with warranty on any of them. Justic will likely , as all others like him , have to deciede to adjust pricing to gain market share lost to competition but at the number of cases he's making , I doubt he's actually go to lose any business over it.

IMO , you will see more people out there with tooled leather cases , but the same people that sought after Justis before will still be doing so.

There is some truth to what you said. These people buying knock-offs aren't probably too keen buying the real thing anyways.
 
Smorgass Bored said:
Spear ?
Just use an AXE and get it over with quickly...
Doug
( I hate to torture MY victims..... imo ) :)

Slow and painful death is much more satisfying in some CASES . . . :D
 
Jack Justis said:
I think it is my design and line snaps have have not been in existance for centuries. The lid strap on the Brunswick case you used as an example was put on by me a while back and was totally different than the original strap and buckle.

Fair enough. Shall I show you some similar caps to yours from the fishing rod industry?

Line snaps however are not really exclusive to you are they?

Yes Jack I "stole" your lid design on all of two cases. I guess you didn't notice the handle similar to Murnak's that I put on the top either. Or maybe I stole that handle from a briefcase I saw....so hard to keep straight.

On the Predator cases I designed I put a rubber sport grip. I stole that from a backpack. Then everyone stole it from me and now many many many cue case consumers get to enjoy the feel of a good molded rubber handle.

I have had tons of emails from people asking me about that Justis case on my website. They specifically mention the super cool lid design. They say it must be a Justis because of the lid. I can't believe the amount of people who think it's a Justis.

But you didn't quite complain about that to begin this thread did you? No, you accused me of something I did not do rather than chastise me for something I did do. Nor have you complained about the other people who are rotten design thieves for doing similar lids to yours.

I guarantee you Jack that I will post another case next week with a lid design that you will like. And I am sure that when you see the improvements you will approve as a craftsman and someone who cares about providing the best.

I really thought it was a compliment to you to use a part of your lid and closure. I didn't think that it would help me to sell the case - I am sure that case would have sold no matter what lid I put on it. But I will respect your sensitivity and change the lid design on future cases. May I still use line snaps or are they forbidden to me?

How is the search for the importers of those Justis copies coming?
 
Pinocchio said:
Well I made it through all 11 pages an as of right now I am sharpening my spear an will post later. Get ready John for a few jabs!!!!!!!!!
Pinocchio

LOL, you might as well :-) I think though that I am pretty much done. You might not get much reaction. Unless you have something substantial don't bother because I won't respond to insults. Just facts. Ask a question and if I can answer it and it has not been answered then I will. Otherwise you might be typing for your own gratification.
 
I thought this thread was supposed to be about "Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed ", but it's turned out to be anything but. We still don't know who actually imported the cases (it obviously wasn't John Barton since the cases predated his "incriminating" pm). Looks like what we have here is an old fashioned lynch mob. Burn Him! Burn Him! But he didn't do it? It doesn't matter, who cares, burn him anyhow!

Nice!
 
RRfireblade said:
It can go both ways.

In an attempt to qualify my presence in this thread :D . . .

My company has offered truly unique innovative and never before seen product in our industry going back 20 years. As anyone can tell you , US manufacturing on almost any scale cannot compete with the Asian market. 20 years ago it was not as big an issue as the Asain market could not compete in quality. Back then it was very upsetting to have product show up at half your 'cost' on the market devaluing your own. Eventually tho , the quality shows it's ugly head and the exposure may actually help your business.

Today however , the import quality is quickly catching up making the differences less and less each day. In some areas or retail the consumer may even be fully aware of that difference but justify it by the difference in cost. "Yes, it's not as good but at half the price . . " Again , 2 sides form. Those who want the 'value' and those who want the real thing.

My biggest problem , and not one that applied here , is looking across my desk I see no less then a dozen 'knock offs' returned for warranty. That really sucks in all ways.

In the issue at hand here , no one buying a brand new import case for $150 on Ebay thinks he's really getting a Justis. Justis is not going to have to deal with warranty on any of them. Justic will likely , as all others like him , have to deciede to adjust pricing to gain market share lost to competition but at the number of cases he's making , I doubt he's actually go to lose any business over it.

IMO , you will see more people out there with tooled leather cases , but the same people that sought after Justis before will still be doing so.

I'm not into knock-offs. I'm not into your cause, either; It's called business.

I mean, I'm sure it is unfortunate on your end. Also, I hate to think that people would mistake a knock-off for the real thing. Maybe this thread should be saying, "If you want the real thing, be careful not to buy _____." By all means inform people about the situation but leave it at that.
 
Let's talk copies.

Here you go, the guy everybody copied (Jay Flowers), flip lid, tip tapper pocket, tooling, strap design, etc.

You custom case makers have taken these designs and done wonders to improve them, but this is the design that influenced them all. As far as I can tell, he wasn't copying anybody.

Jay had pretty much stopped making cases by the time Jack got into it, so there's no shame. Jack picked up where Jay left off. Jack's cases are simply beautiful and have far surpassed anything Flowers ever did.

Examine the pictures. Leather and lined tubes, tooling, pockets, lid, etc etc. This is the mother of all tooled cases. Let's show some respect.

Flowers_Front.jpg
Flowers_Back.jpg
 
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John Barton said:
And to the guy who sent you the private message - you are also a *****. You know that you NEVER received a case but you HAPPILY accepted the prize cue I sent you that you won in the FREE raffle.

Jack I think you should give - xxxxx's (I won't name names) girlfriend a FREE Justis case. He has earned it by causing you to lose someone who revered you.

YOU CAN NAME NAMES. I'M ALL RIGHT WITH IT. YOU CAN ALSO CALL ME ALL THE NAMES YOU WANT. IT JUST PROVES WHAT KIND OF PERSON YOU ARE. I DIDN'T LIE ABOUT YOU OR PROVIDE FALSE INFORMATION. I FORWARDED A PM TO SOMEONE THAT ASKED THE FORUM FOR INFORMATION. DID I ALTER THE PM? NO I DIDN'T, I DID NOTHING WRONG. WHAT I DID WASN'T DONE WITH MALICE. YOU SAID IT, I HADN'T DELETED THE PM, I SENT IT TO JACK. I STAND BEHIND THE THINGS I SAY AND DO. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO, IS THE SAME.

I DID RECEIVE THE FREE RAFFLE CUE. WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? DO YOU WANT IT BACK? WOULD THAT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER? IT'S NEVER HIT A BALL, AND LAYS IN MY HALLWAY.
 
The last word

I think the previous post showing the Flowers case was a lovely end to this thread. Jack, John, and many others certainly owe a lot to the innovative design aspects of this case which continue to be used throughout the spectrum of cases available today.

In that John Barton is an employee of my company, and in that our company has been directly threatened by a poster in this forum, I would like to submit the following:

1. Sterling Gaming, Inc. has not at any time planned to import any type of pool cue case that could be called a knock-off of a Justis case. John Barton does not have the authority to make these kinds of decisions for Sterling.

2. I have spoken to Mr. Justis about this thread. We have no "issues" between us.

3. John stated, "I tend to get a little too involved in AZ and neglect work which I am sure some of you can understand. :-)." I understand this fully. On *that* note, I'd like to ask you, John, to get your butt back to work.

4. The Sterling cue that was mentioned earlier in this thread requires a slightly longer statement. In 2002, when we were importing our first non-laser-sighted cues, we selected roughly a hundred models out of a catalog. We consulted several industry people about our selections, and were given the thumb's-up on what we elected to carry. Among this selection was a model very, very closely visually resembling a Ginacue. This was a complete surprise to us. I believe it was Charlie Fleming of Charlie's Pro Shop in Baltimore that first brought this to our attention. He had said that Ernie Guiterrez probably wouldn't be very pleased knowing that his $5,500 cue had been knocked off in an under-$100 model; a point well-understood. Charlie (I believe!) told me he'd contact Ernie, and to expect a call, where I could explain that our carrying of this cue was simply out of ignorance to the existence of the original. The call never came, and when we wrote the text for the 50,000 copy catalog containing this cue, we made sure to give credit where credit was due. We named the cue "Gina", and describe the cue as follows:
"This is a 'tribute cue,' the design being a replica of a very famous Ginacue. However, instead of costing $5,500, this one is in your price range. Though these aren't actual inlays, they appear to be the real thing."​
To this day, we have never heard a word from Mr. Guiterrez that he is displeased with the use of his design in this way. Some members of the ACA have expressed their disdain that we carry this cue, but the fact of the matter is, it is good publicity for the original. With 50,000 copies of the original catalog, and countless thousands of website page views, we are certainly helping to promote the high-value of the Ginacue brand. Should Mr. Guiterrez ever state to us that he is not happy with the situation, we would do anything required to satisfy him, including discontinuing the model. We also had two other cue models we ordered on that first order that greatly resembled a Viking and an Italian-made cue. Barry Hart had no problem with us selling that model (I approached him first and apologized for the situation once I learned of the similarity), and the Italian manufacturer simply asked us to not use their name in the marketing of that model. We obliged. In closing, our company does not willingly pursue the marketing of designs that are not of our creation, and we do what it takes to make things right if we hear of any problems.

If allowed a little more leeway, I would also like to state that John has been working with some very skilled craftspeople during the development of his new cases. Yes, these people are living in China. What language a person speaks, what country in which they reside, and the wages they earn are in no way factors concerning the quality of work that person can perform.

My familiarity with message boards and forums goes back to 1998 (the Gene Spafford days), when Usenet, IRC, and email were about all there was to the internet. Flame wars are nothing new, and I still don't quite understand why people continue to engage in them. Be sure to see Spafford's quotes, especially his takes on Sturgeon's Revelation. Yes, John Barton is a repeat offender...with emphasis on the "offense" part. While I seldom agree with the way he expresses his points (and I frequently disagree with the points themselves), I believe we can ALL agree that John is a very passionate and vocal evangelist for pool. I'd ask that you cut him some slack. Just maybe we can get him to realize that, just as in the movie Wargames, "the only way to win is not to play." For clarification, John "Mark" Barton, I'm speaking of your pool playing, and not your long-winded tirades. =)

May this thread rest in peace.

With kind regards to you all,

S. Scott Taylor, President
Sterling Gaming, Inc.
http://www.sterling-gaming.com/

PS: If you are a billiards professional, please contact us to get a copy of our new catalog, which just hit the streets about a week ago!
 
Har. I figured I was the only guy around here who would remember, or even know of, Spaf. :P
 
What I'm wondering is, why did Jack create these multiple threads, drop the bombs, and then disappear? We're on page 12 and when is the last time Jack wrote a comment?

What say you, Jack? Where is your followup?
 
runscott said:
Ahhh - my apologies, I missed the flaming sword. At least you have the balls to make it clear what you are here for.

Admission of poor vision ?

K. That would explain where you think you saw me flame someone.



;)
 
Jack

shinobi said:
What I'm wondering is, why did Jack create these multiple threads, drop the bombs, and then disappear? We're on page 12 and when is the last time Jack wrote a comment?

What say you, Jack? Where is your followup?

He's probably doing what Scott Taylor suggested, and getting back to work
 
TATE said:
Here you go, the guy everybody copied (Jay Flowers), flip lid, tip tapper pocket, tooling, strap design, etc.

You custom case makers have taken these designs and done wonders to improve them, but this is the design that influenced them all. As far as I can tell, he wasn't copying anybody.

Jay had pretty much stopped making cases by the time Jack got into it, so there's no shame. Jack picked up where Jay left off. Jack's cases are simply beautiful and have far surpassed anything Flowers ever did.

By Jack's own admission , he basically forced Jay to quit the business.

"Jay Florwers certainly had a great influence on many of todays casemakers, including me. I had been looking a many different designs and without question Jay's case was of the highest quality and a design that I liked best. I changed the pockets, lid, straps, and the tooling but he did not like it one bit and then quit making cases altogether. I tried to convince Jay that there was enough room for both of us, even thou the styles were similar. Even thou he gave up making cases, we did become rather good friends and talked regularly.

For what it's worth.
 
Hey for what it's worth I am amazed at what 6 year old Chinese kids, smelling lead paint, can make for $1.00 a day. :D

JV
 
classiccues said:
Hey for what it's worth I am amazed at what 6 year old Chinese kids, smelling lead paint, can make for $1.00 a day. :D

JV
Reminds me of a story my school teacher once told our class..this mom told her boy to walk out of the house alone empty handed and make money..all by himself..

This boy very smart, he went to a supermarket, offered to guard the trolleys for customers who went to pick up their cars, and in exchange they pay him that one dollar coin stuck in the trolleys as a small service charge or tip..finally the boy return home with a bagfull of coins..sheet..out of topic again..
 
shinobi said:
What I'm wondering is, why did Jack create these multiple threads, drop the bombs, and then disappear? We're on page 12 and when is the last time Jack wrote a comment?

What say you, Jack? Where is your followup?

exactly, he should just leave the business
 
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