Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed

[ShootingArts]

consider this

Right now we can't build a computer, a car, or a fighter jet just for starters. We thought it was very funny when we got in a fight with Iran and just didn't give them the spare parts for the jets we had sold them. We are in the same boat right now.

One thing most of the "world market" folks tend to ignore is that we didn't get where we are at because of fair competition. We got here by foreign governments targeting one niche after the other and subsidizing the imports to the USA until the US competition was destroyed. Another deal is the cars. Very lopsided tariffs for many years. Some countries have automatic reciprocal tariffs. If we did that the consumer would pay more but we would have a far stronger economy and would be far more competitive in the world market. Of course the time to do this was fifty years ago.

Hu

There was only one 'original' idea, and noone on earth had it.

Think Whitten is mad about all the 'other' cases now that are spring loaded.

Was a 'Toyota' originally a 'knock-off'? Was 'Seiko' a knock-off of some Swiss watch? (Seikos sold for $20 American on most street corners in Japan during the Vietnam war)

What happens is that yes, people take ideas from other people, they make a similair product only cheaper to get their foot in the door. They improve their quality over time and technical knowledge, and the quality becomes better, and finally it rivals the original and becomes a direct competitor with the original. All you have to do is look at the Auto Industry and Imports to recognize that.

My mom drives a 2004 Hyundai Sonata, my brother a Lexus,and my brother says Mom's car rivals his in quality. The Sonata sold for $18,000, the Lexus for $46,000. Now, the ones going thru the motions is Kia and Suzuki to get up to snuff on market share.

This process has held true for decades, and will continue in all industries, especially with all the 'outsourcing' being done by our country. These so-called foreign country plants will someday go independent, make and assemble the whole product, and be a direct competitor with the original American product. Since we are outsourcing the 'engine' of the product (which has the most technical knowledge) and just do 'final assembly', what will happen to us after these plants go 'Independent', and we no longer are equipped to produce the 'engine' of the product any longer.

 

[watchez]

There was only one 'original' idea, and noone on earth had it.

Think Whitten is mad about all the 'other' cases now that are spring loaded.

Was a 'Toyota' originally a 'knock-off'? Was 'Seiko' a knock-off of some Swiss watch? (Seikos sold for $20 American on most street corners in Japan during the Vietnam war)

What happens is that yes, people take ideas from other people, they make a similair product only cheaper to get their foot in the door. They improve their quality over time and technical knowledge, and the quality becomes better, and finally it rivals the original and becomes a direct competitor with the original. All you have to do is look at the Auto Industry and Imports to recognize that.

My mom drives a 2004 Hyundai Sonata, my brother a Lexus,and my brother says Mom's car rivals his in quality. The Sonata sold for $18,000, the Lexus for $46,000. Now, the ones going thru the motions is Kia and Suzuki to get up to snuff on market share.

This process has held true for decades, and will continue in all industries, especially with all the 'outsourcing' being done by our country. These so-called foreign country plants will someday go independent, make and assemble the whole product, and be a direct competitor with the original American product. Since we are outsourcing the 'engine' of the product (which has the most technical knowledge) and just do 'final assembly', what will happen to us after these plants go 'Independent', and we no longer are equipped to produce the 'engine' of the product any longer.

You are comparing apples to oranges--something you fail to recognize.
You can sell a fast food hamburger, fried on a hot grill.
You cannot sell a fast food hamburger wrapped in packaging resembling McDonald's.
You can sell a car that has heated seats, 4 wheel steering, disc brakes, etc.
You cannot sell a car that is designed to look like a Lexus.

I think the problem that Jack Justis (& others) have had & are having with John Barton & his Sterling crew is that they produce products that are trying to deceive the consumer into thinking that they are buying the real thing, or something close to it. Whether the consumer is happy because they have something that someone might mistake for a Justis or they are happy because they have something that looks real similiar but for a cheaper price.

Jack mentioned in one of his posts that the rivets are exactly the same # and same design pattern. That seems to me that there is intent to deceive the consumer. Not mentioning the styling & patterns on the case itself.

Actionhound confirms this consumer 'need'. He can't afford the $1000 case so he is happy to buy the knock off. He is not wanting to buy a Yugo instead of a Mercedes. You can tell the difference between those two cars by appearance, let alone quality. He wants the knock off to be similiar & will buy it when it becomes available cheaper. Every year in New York, they dump 1000's of fake Rolex, Gucci, Movado, etc. watches on 5th Avenue & smash them with a steam roller. Why can't you buy a Rulex watch legally for $40--because you are infringing on someone's original design.

 

[runscott]

i have to say that i agree with Snapshot on this one... (rep to you i might add), i dont see whats wrong with a little competition in every market, but thats everyone's own oppinion... this is how i look at it, i have wanted a nice "Justis" style case for my cues for some time now, but i cant afford to drop 1000, for it, so basically what you guys are saying is that im just SOL because i dont have the extra 1000? im glad that someone is making them cheaper because thats the only way i will ever be able to afford one.

of course i will probably fry for saying this, but oh well.

If you want a nice Justis case, and don't want to pay $1,000, then just order one from Jack. Where are you getting your prices? The Chinese copies are NOT of $1,000 Justis cases.

If, on the other hand, you actually WANT to spend $1,000 on a case, simply contact John Barton and I'm sure he'll contact China and get one started. But you'll of course have to wait longer, because after they get it constructed and tooled in China, they'll have to mail it to John so that he can sign it before shipping to you.

 

[watchez]

....good to see you RunScott. Glad to see you made it back from the other side.

 

[runscott]

I think the problem that Jack Justis (& others) have had & are having with John Barton & his Sterling crew is that they produce products that are trying to deceive the consumer into thinking that they are buying the real thing, or something close to it.

Well-put. Also, the fact that John Barton has appeared on this forum, as well as the IP forum, touting the superiority of his cases over Jack's, then admits that his partners at Instroke wanted to duplicate Jack's design (why, if it's so inferior to an Instroke? why, if it's a Flowers design, as he claims?), and now John wants to import copies of Jack's cases.

It's blatant hypocrisy from a board participant, and any time that happens, other board member are going to comment - that's the nature of an open internet discussion forum.

John, just import cheap copies of your own cases.

 

[Actionhound]

If you want a nice Justis case, and don't want to pay $1,000, then just order one from Jack. Where are you getting your prices? The Chinese copies are NOT of $1,000 Justis cases.

If, on the other hand, you actually WANT to spend $1,000 on a case, simply contact John Barton and I'm sure he'll contact China and get one started. But you'll of course have to wait longer, because after they get it constructed and tooled in China, they'll have to mail it to John so that he can sign it before shipping to you.

ok... let me re-phrase what i said... its not that i dont WANT to spend 700-1000 on a case, its that i CANT spend 700-1000 on a case, i have a very good job (Civil Engineer) but i have to many irons in the fire right now to be able to afford to spend that kinda money.

and the 1000$ is coming from a quote from Jack that he gave me about 6 months or so ago, i would need a 3x6 case at least and his quote to me was around 900 or so, which is more than i can afford, i dont see what the big deal is, to me its like a cue maker that gets mad because he see's someone that made a cue that looks similiar to his standard cue.

 

[watchez]

ok... let me re-phrase what i said... its not that i dont WANT to spend 700-1000 on a case, its that i CANT spend 700-1000 on a case, i have a very good job (Civil Engineer) but i have to many irons in the fire right now to be able to afford to spend that kinda money.

and the 1000$ is coming from a quote from Jack that he gave me about 6 months or so ago, i would need a 3x6 case at least and his quote to me was around 900 or so, which is more than i can afford, i dont see what the big deal is, to me its like a cue maker that gets mad because he see's someone that made a cue that looks similiar to his standard cue.

Where did you go to college to get your civil engineering degree? Was it a good school? Why didn't you just go to school @ PoDunk University--then tell your prospective employers that you still have a civil engineering degree, what is the big deal?

 

[Actionhound]

Where did you go to college to get your civil engineering degree? Was it a good school? Why didn't you just go to school @ PoDunk University--then tell your prospective employers that you still have a civil engineering degree, what is the big deal?

i went to UF, and thats a little different, i design subdivisions and large commercial developments that cost millions of dollars, and if not designed correctly can turn into a disaster... not nearly the same thing, but good try. and besides, im a partner in the company, so it doesnt matter where i went to college.

but like i said, i am just stating my opinion, if you dont agree with me then fine, thats your opinion, but dont try to belittle me because we dont see eye to eye on something.

 

[runscott]

ok... let me re-phrase what i said... its not that i dont WANT to spend 700-1000 on a case, its that i CANT spend 700-1000 on a case, i have a very good job (Civil Engineer) but i have to many irons in the fire right now to be able to afford to spend that kinda money.

and the 1000$ is coming from a quote from Jack that he gave me about 6 months or so ago, i would need a 3x6 case at least and his quote to me was around 900 or so, which is more than i can afford, i dont see what the big deal is, to me its like a cue maker that gets mad because he see's someone that made a cue that looks similiar to his standard cue.

Well, you've got a very simple solution then. As I said, these ripoffs are NOT of $1,000 Justis designs. So, given your need for a $700-1000 Justis (I noticed your number dropped from the original $1,000 requirement), the ripoff copy isn't going to satisfy your needs. But if you LIKE the ripoffs, and your support of them in this thread seems to indicate that you DO, then go to Jack's site and order a REAL one that looks like the rip-off:

There's a triple on Jack's site for $515 that is FANCIER than the rip-off that has been posted repeatedly in this thread. Go get it: http://www.justiscases.net/buildcase.html

 

[Actionhound]

Well, you've got a very simple solution then. As I said, these ripoffs are NOT of $1,000 Justis designs. So, given your need for a $700-1000 Justis (I noticed your number dropped from the original $1,000 requirement), the ripoff copy isn't going to satisfy your needs. But if you LIKE the ripoffs, and your support of them in this thread seems to indicate that you DO, then go to Jack's site and order a REAL one that looks like the rip-off:

There's a triple on Jack's site for $515 that is FANCIER than the rip-off that has been posted repeatedly in this thread. Go get it: http://www.justiscases.net/buildcase.html

that wasnt a requirement, thats the price i was quoted, and if he sells his cases for 500 then why is he worried about a "knock off" thats only around 50 or 100 cheaper???

also i am curious as to exactly what tooling or work comes with this 500$ case??? or is it just the plain leather?

and im not in favor of someone ripping off Jacks product, but i dont see whats wrong with a little competition, and dont know why he has to be the only one that can use a particular design, but let me ask you one question... do you think Mr. Justis thought up all of his own designs? or do you think he saw things he liked and incorporated it into his work?

 

[DeadPoked]

YOU CAN NAME NAMES. I'M ALL RIGHT WITH IT. YOU CAN ALSO CALL ME ALL THE NAMES YOU WANT. IT JUST PROVES WHAT KIND OF PERSON YOU ARE. I DIDN'T LIE ABOUT YOU OR PROVIDE FALSE INFORMATION. I FORWARDED A PM TO SOMEONE THAT ASKED THE FORUM FOR INFORMATION. DID I ALTER THE PM? NO I DIDN'T, I DID NOTHING WRONG. WHAT I DID WASN'T DONE WITH MALICE. YOU SAID IT, I HADN'T DELETED THE PM, I SENT IT TO JACK. I STAND BEHIND THE THINGS I SAY AND DO. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO, IS THE SAME.

I DID RECEIVE THE FREE RAFFLE CUE. WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? DO YOU WANT IT BACK? WOULD THAT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER? IT'S NEVER HIT A BALL, AND LAYS IN MY HALLWAY.

 

[runscott]

that wasnt a requirement, thats the price i was quoted, and if he sells his cases for 500 then why is he worried about a "knock off" thats only around 50 or 100 cheaper???

also i am curious as to exactly what tooling or work comes with this 500$ case??? or is it just the plain leather?

and im not in favor of someone ripping off Jacks product, but i dont see whats wrong with a little competition, and dont know why he has to be the only one that can use a particular design, but let me ask you one question... do you think Mr. Justis thought up all of his own designs? or do you think he saw things he liked and incorporated it into his work?

Holy cow. How much trouble would it be for you to actually check his web-site before posting this ridiculous stuff? I even posted the link for you!

Are you this lazy when you develop these million dollar developments that have such high risk for disaster if you mess up !?!?!

My bullshit meter is pegging.

Actionhound - Sorry, but you've started boring me. Steve - talk to this guy for a while, I'm going elsewhere for my entertainment.

 

[watchez]

i went to UF, and thats a little different, i design subdivisions and large commercial developments that cost millions of dollars, and if not designed correctly can turn into a disaster... not nearly the same thing, but good try. and besides, im a partner in the company, so it doesnt matter where i went to college.

but like i said, i am just stating my opinion, if you dont agree with me then fine, thats your opinion, but dont try to belittle me because we dont see eye to eye on something.

No one is belittling you. Just trying to get you to see it from the manufacturers point of view. Guess you will find that out when someone copies one of your million of dollars subdivisions & large commercial developments & you are left standing there saying WTF.

You also have a strange outlook. If you were up for the death penalty, would you hire an attorney that graduated from Harvard or PoDunk University (even if the PoDunk attorney was a partner)?

 

[Actionhound]

Holy cow. How much trouble would it be for you to actually check his web-site before posting this ridiculous stuff? I even posted the link for you!

Are you this lazy when you develop these million dollar developments that have such high risk for disaster if you mess up !?!?!

My bullshit meter is pegging.

what are you talking about??? i did check the website, he has a picture of the case that he made for Bustamante under the price, does that mean that everything on that case comes standard for the 515 price??? i wouldnt think so.

and now your trying to tell me that im making up what i do for a living? if i was going to pretend then i would make it something interesting...

and FYI 95% of all subdivisions are well over a million dollar developments, when you add in the infrastructure and cost of roads, and my design cost, plus permitting, plus land costs.

 

[Actionhound]

No one is belittling you. Just trying to get you to see it from the manufacturers point of view. Guess you will find that out when someone copies one of your million of dollars subdivisions & large commercial developments & you are left standing there saying WTF.

You also have a strange outlook. If you were up for the death penalty, would you hire an attorney that graduated from Harvard or PoDunk University (even if the PoDunk attorney was a partner)?

i would hire whoever could do the best job, reguardless of where he came from, but your mixing apples and oranges here, i see what your trying to get at, but being on death row and having your life in someone elses hands is a little different from buying a pool case.

 

[watchez]

Jack- I don't know you but I would suggest leaving 'Actionhound', the million dollar developing partner, as a customer that John Barton should deal with. Believe me, that will get you a little even for John stealing your designs.

NEXT

 

[Actionhound]

Jack- I don't know you but I would suggest leaving 'Actionhound', the million dollar developing partner, as a customer that John Barton should deal with. Believe me, that will get you a little even for John stealing your designs.

NEXT

what are you 12 years old or something? now THAT's an adult response.

seriously though, im very sorry that i formed my own opinion that didnt agree with yours, from now on i will be sending you PM's of all of my opinions so you can make sure they are correct before i post any.

 

[teebee]

Competition is everywhere and is rarely fair. It is also extremely hard to successfully support products, species, or methods that are losing the competition battle regardless of how "right" it seems to try.
Anybody in any business who doesn't find a way to deal with this is destined to fail.

 

[buzzsaw]

Why do you think there are infringement laws? Because there are people that are continuously trying to build a better mousetrap. Most business ideas are not new. Most of the time it's people that worked for someone else and thought they could do the same job better. I've always been told, if you're successful, someone is watching what you're doing.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

That's why always apply for a patent if you think you got a new idea or innovative idea. Gee whiz, patent application is so cheap.

On the side note: you can not copyright "look and feel."