Kaci got away with obvious foul in the WPM final?! (plus similar case Capito)

sjm said:
Point well taken.

At a WPBA event (at Soaring Eagle Casino if memory serves), Karen Corr met Jeanette Lee in the semifinal.

At one point in the match, Karen Corr was over the cue ball and, in her opinion, the cue ball moved slightly but she had not touched it. She approached Jeanette and told her as much, offering that a video replay might clarify things. Jeanette said "if you say you didn't touch it, that's good enough for me" and Karen continued.

I feel strongly that Kaci would have known that he touched the object ball, but if he thought it was only that he might have, he could have asked for a videotape replay.

I'm no doctor and won't opine on how adrenaline affects one's sense of touch but I do know that an adrenaline rush helps INCREASE, not DECREASE one's concentration, seemingly making it more likely they'd know whether they had touched a ball in a situation like this one.
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You know what... last week in league I saw a lady on the opposing team get down on the CB and it moved. She didn't touch it. Her bridge hand had made the loose cloth move. I'm the only one who saw it and I didn't call it on her, no reason to when it was caused by bad equipment and no fault of her own. I guess it could be a similar thing. It looked like it touched and he reacted as if he had seen the CB move... but he may have not touched it.

Hopefully the cloth is tighter for the pros than at the local watering hole, but you never know. Improperly stretched cloth can bunch up and relax when you put your bridge hand on it.
 
BasementDweller said:
I've played pool quite a while and I can't recall a single instance where a tournament promoter/director informed the players that the expectation for their tournament was that ALL players would call fouls on themselves. I'm sure it's happened BUT the question remains - is pool a gentleman's game like golf or is it not? I have no idea if it is. I have no problem with that being the expectation but not because the moralists demand it. In a refereed match I have ZERO problem with players not calling fouls on themselves if that action has not been demanded by the promoter, and there's someone in the arena getting paid to make those calls!

We had a horrible call in a championship softball game over the weekend where a clearly foul ball was ruled fair. The opposing team's coach saw that the ball was clearly foul but during the "discussion" with the umpire she said nothing, nor did I expect her too as it wasn't her responsibility.

The question here is not one of integrity but of expectation!
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You make good points.

The expectations for both activities (pool and softball/baseball) are completely different. Can the expectations change over time? Sure. But at least for baseball, there is over a hundred years of inertia that it's simply not expected for a team to overrule an ump's bad call to their detriment. For pool, the history (regarding calling your own fouls there is a ref present) is not as clear cut.
 
sjm said:
Kaci was not rude, but luck didn't decide this match. Kaci's first comment was about how poorly he broke in the final relative to his other matches. It was only afterward that he began to talk at length about the rolls. Yes, Ko got a few, but the match was a massacre in which one player clearly outperformed the other.

To be fair, Kaci got plenty of luck to reach the final. Mario He hooked himself on the five ball at double hill and that's how Kaci reached the semifinal. Then Niels Feijen broke dry and left Kaci a runout at double hill in the semis. The pool gods took awfully good care of Kaci during his march to the final.

I agree with those that suggest that the fact that the players are interviewed immediately makes it harder on them. The loser has surely not unwound yet and is not quite ready for it. Unfortunately, it's a bad look for pool when the loser bemoans his bad luck in a post-match interview as Kaci did.
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There was at least a 4 game swing by extremely fortunate misses, and therefore the wrong player with the break at least twice.
Ko played better and deserved the title but without those 2 or 3 losses turned into wins, it would not have been a massacre at all.
A pro level player is better equipped to handle that much cruelty from fate - I wish I was.
At least Kaci didn't make a dozen hand flips like others would have.

Good rolls can stoke a fire of confidence in the player as well.
When I was coming up, I gambled a lot. One of my buddies was almost sure to B&R the rack after he shit a ball in and got out.
It was infuriating to watch but it bacame a joke about which we would later laugh.

As you mentioned, interviewing someone directly after a match like that one is tough for the guy on the losing end.
I didn't watch it, but I can sympathize with a player who missed out on an opportunity for a title that prestigious, in that way.
 
jsp said:
You make good points.

The expectations for both activities (pool and softball/baseball) are completely different. Can the expectations change over time? Sure. But at least for baseball, there is over a hundred years of inertia that it's simply not expected for a team to overrule an ump's bad call to their detriment. For pool, the history (regarding calling your own fouls there is a ref present) is not as clear cut.
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Nice

I also think we are exaggerating the idea of what integrity is. To me, it's a very minor display of integrity when you call a foul on yourself in front of the entire world, when you know the ego boost is right around the corner as all your fans point out what an upstanding individual you are. Or even, in the scenario where only your opponent is aware of your top-notch character. The ultimate display of integrity is no display at all, it's something like -- helping out the less fortunate than you when NOBODY sees it.
 
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JolietJames said:
There was at least a 4 game swing by extremely fortunate misses, and therefore the wrong player with the break at least twice.
Ko played better and deserved the title but without those 2 or 3 losses turned into wins, it would not have been a massacre at all.
A pro level player is better equipped to handle that much cruelty from fate - I wish I was.
At least Kaci didn't make a dozen hand flips like others would have.

Good rolls can stoke a fire of confidence in the player as well.
When I was coming up, I gambled a lot. One of my buddies was almost sure to B&R the rack after he shit a ball in and got out.
It was infuriating to watch but it bacame a joke about which we would later laugh.

As you mentioned, interviewing someone directly after a match like that one is tough for the guy on the losing end.
I didn't watch it, but I can sympathize with a player who missed out on an opportunity for a title that prestigious, in that way.
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Thanks for an insightful post.
 
There's also a middle ground in this discussion that isn't mentioned often, if ever. My default position during refereed matches, is to maintain 100% honesty but not necessarily volunteer if I believe a foul may have occurred. I think this position is most logical in a team event, where the rules dictate that the playing opponent is the referee. In these sorts of matches you have no idea what type of morals your opponents have, so deciding that you are going to be the one righteous man amongst this den of thieves would be unfairly handicapping your entire team, and it's also a nice way to find yourself teamless. Instead, I take the rules seriously and I allow my opponent to be the referee and if a question of what happened ever arises -- I'm just honest. Basically, if they don't want to do their job, I'm not going to do it for them.

Now gambling one-on-one is sort of a different animal, and while I'm not sure it's written in stone, I've always felt the spirit of the game called on both players to call fouls on themselves so that's how I've pretty much always handled those situations.
 
Regardless of what stance any one of us takes on the topic, if a pro player is caught not calling his own fouls on camera then we're talking about it all over social media. Who wouldn't find that annoying? Matchroom ushered in a new era where each pool player has a very real incentive to take consideration of their personal brand and social media presence. I think the player that has great results and maintains a sponsor-friendly image will see more financial return for their efforts.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Yes, I didn't see that video and the reaction. But in general, people assume that a player is always aware of small fouls. I know I've fouled myself without knowing and at other times I have maybe fouled but I was not sure.
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Without seeing Eklent's reaction to that touch and only reading about the situation I would give Eklent a benefit of doubt like you do. Having seen the vid there is simply no doubt unfortunately..
 
MattPoland said:
Regardless of what stance any one of us takes on the topic, if a pro player is caught not calling his own fouls on camera then we're talking about it all over social media. Who wouldn't find that annoying? Matchroom ushered in a new era where each pool player has a very real incentive to take consideration of their personal brand and social media presence. I think the player that has great results and maintains a sponsor-friendly image will see more financial return for their efforts.
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Very true, but let's add that, as a group, if players commit themselves to the highest standards of fair play and sportsmanship, they can raise the image of pro pool itself.
 
boogieman said:
It looked like it touched and he reacted as if he had seen the CB move... but he may have not touched it.
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For those that claim Kaci reacted to touching the 8 ball, it's at least possible that he reacted to what he thought was being unexpectedly close to the ball. While I'm no pro, many times I am so focused on the shot that I miss other things.
jsp said:
The expectations for both activities (pool and softball/baseball) are completely different.
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The vast majority of play in baseball is subject to an umpire's ruling, strike/ball, safe/out, etc. I suppose accidental contact of the cue ball with the tip of your cue could qualify, but, for the most part, there are only one or two shots a rack that are not obviously fair or foul. I think the lack of involvement of a referee means that the players have a stronger responsibility to call fouls.
MattPoland said:
I think the player that has great results and maintains a sponsor-friendly image will see more financial return for their efforts.
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Yes, even with the improving prize fund, most players will need the sponsorship money, being unappealing to a sponsor could cost much more than the gain from not calling fouls.
 
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marek said:
Without seeing Eklent's reaction to that touch and only reading about the situation I would give Eklent a benefit of doubt like you do. Having seen the vid there is simply no doubt unfortunately..
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There may be no doubt that he knew he fouled, but there may be doubt as to whether or not he felt it was his responsibility to call it. That could have been what the brief reset was all about.
sjm said:
Very true, but let's add that, as a group, if players commit themselves to the highest standards of fair play and sportsmanship, they can raise the image of pro pool itself.
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Don't get me wrong -- I agree with this. Maybe this whole matter could be put to bed by Matchroom (and other promoters) clearly stating what their expectation is. I don't think it would be far-fetched for a promoter to say -- players play and refs ref. I actually think this is the best way to go but if they want players calling fouls on themselves then so be it, but this will lead to more controversy not less.

Maybe they've already been clear about this but if not, I don't think it's fair to judge another person's character over a situation where there actions could be rationally justified.
 
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BasementDweller said:
There may be no doubt that he knew he fouled, but there may be doubt as to whether or not he felt it was his responsibility to call it. That could have been what the brief reset was all about.

Don't get me wrong -- I agree with this. Maybe this whole matter could be put to bed by Matchroom (and other promoters) clearly stating what their expectation is. I don't think it would be far-fetched for a promoter to say -- players play and refs ref. I actually think this is the best way to go but if they want players calling fouls on themselves then so be it, but this will lead to more controversy not less.

Maybe they've already been clear about this but if not, I don't think it's fair to judge another person's character over a situation that could be rational justified.
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Thats a point of view I didnt consider, thx for your input:unsure: Well one thing is for sure..the next time I play Eklent I will definitely pay more attention to those close call situations as now I know his stance on such situations differs from mine. My main argument was about the fact that he knew, not about his character, its rather about my expectations how a player should act, in this case call the foul himself. Thats how I was taught to behave at the table but it is clearly possible that Eklents game background was very different from this so it wouldnt be about character at all but about cultural difference:) Which would definitely make for a very interesting topic about what is and what isnt normal at the pool table ;)
 
Bob Jewett said:
He touched it with the tip of his little finger. It rocked. I don't think anyone here can be sure he felt it. He was concentrating on other things.
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I saw the ball move but not the touch. Maybe he too much pressure on the cloth and it bunched up and pushed the ball. Tough call to make.
 
boogieman said:
He touched it, reacted to the touch, got his cue on line, you could see the gears spinning... yeah I touched it. He stands up waiting for the ref to call the foul... then for some reason goes back down on the shot.

Skeevy.
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I think he stood up because the cue ball moved so much his aim was off🤷
Gross foul either way, he should be suspended for not calling it.
 
fjk said:
I just watched it a few more times full screen. I still didn't see the foul. Can someone get a still frame of his tip on the cue ball?
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it's not high def enough, you won't see the tip of the finger. but you do see the ball move, and while inconclusive, i think it reacts proportionly to a touch foul more so than to a poorly stretched cloth
 
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